Kill the Golden Goose (1979) - Brad Weston, Ed Parker, Bong Soo Han, Carol Conners

[AlbertV]

Ed Parker, the creator of American Kenpo Karate, starred in a 1979 martial arts film called Kill the Golden Goose, which also starred Hapkido grandmaster Bong Soo Han as the chief of police. I'm now watching it for the 1st time on Amazon Prime. Has anyone seen it? Thoughts?

 

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

Parker is now borderline disgraced. He ripped off a Kung Fu master to add forms to his "system", and lost many students of his original school. Basically his claim to fame was using magazines to make it seem like he was a grand master or something, and he had filled his system with padding. From what I have read, Kempo was 1. Supposed to be learned very quickly, not taking years to get through endless forms and techniques and 2. He got rid of Judo (which I understand he was not bad at) randori, probably because he was lazy 3. He wanted the techniques practiced in the air 4. He wanted people to believe that you could defend yourself without pressure testing. Sorry for the rant, but I wasted years of my life on the nonsense that he taught. While I may have won a few fights with this stuff, I lost a bunch as well. I would have been better off with Judo and some boxing.http://freemartialartsonline.com/kenpo-2/the-terrible-truth-about-ed-parker-and-chinese-kenpo-karate/

[CT KID]

I remember seeing this flick back in the 80s on a video gems beta or vhs from the videotape rental store and being pretty disappointed. Bong Soo Han looked good as the double for Tom Loughlin in the Billy Jack films though, Ed Parker I'm aware of for the famous Internationals tournament he put on in California where Bruce put on his famous demonstration and his association with Elvis. Didn't know he was such a fraud though as far as he system, thanks for the interesting commentary about him @NoKUNGFUforYU, fascinating reading. I know they say he was a massive guy, so maybe he could just beat the piss out of people do to his sheer size even if his style wasn't effective? 

[AlbertV]

I finished it and yeah, I was expecting better. Bong Soo Han had one good fight but wtf was that about with Han vs. Parker at the end. Han was good but jeez, Parker really disappointed me. It was practically a precursor of Jackie Chan vs. HB Haggerty in Battle Creek Brawl. Parker rarely did anything resembling Kenpo. It was more like a burly serial killer tone to the character.

And Brad von Beltz's wannabe Dirty Harry cop and his fashion sense reminded me of David Chiang's fashion sense in Duel of Fists. I kept laughing my butt off.

Edited June 26, 2020 by AlbertV

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

3 hours ago, AlbertV said:

I finished it and yeah, I was expecting better. Bong Soo Han had one good fight but wtf was that about with Han vs. Parker at the end. Han was good but jeez, Parker really disappointed me. It was practically a precursor of Jackie Chan vs. HB Haggerty in Battle Creek Brawl. Parker rarely did anything resembling Kenpo. It was more like a burly serial killer tone to the character.

And Brad von Beltz's wannabe Dirty Harry cop and his fashion sense reminded me of David Chiang's fashion sense in Duel of Fists. I kept laughing my butt off.

My Tae Kwon Do instructor said that they used to laugh at his live demos at the internationals, as he was huffing and puffing away. Most likely he could use his size to show his "power" early on. What he was good at was collecting material and moves. He dropped the Judo, that was the fatal flaw, as he was more and more against any kind of hard contact. Everything was theory and body mechanics nonsense. He supposedly got beat up by a teenager at one point. He was very, very dialed into Hollywood though, so everyone had to go thru him for access. Associating with all these guys made him look good. But also, martial arts was very up and down in terms of quality. The raw truth is that most stuff was slow and the fitness was not there for a majority of schools compared to Boxing, Wrestling and Judo. And even Hayward Nishioka complained Judoka weren't fit enough and would get mauled by wrestlers, so much so that they changed the rules. Bruce was on to something, but he had a long way to go. The reality is he could have emptied his cup and learned a lot more, but he just wanted to observe and grab moves, not theory and tactics for the most part. Anyway, that is my rant. Basically, what we see even in the 1970's is much faster than just 10 years before. I will leave you with this.

 

[CT KID]

A lot of his techniques look like just a quick flapping of the hands with no power. Tom Bleecker wrote in his book Unsettled Matters that the lions share of Kempo where defenses against an opponent attacking with a step over locked out right punch and Bruce pointed out that no streetfighter attacked like this. Bruce was quick and elusive and wouldn't stand still  like a stationary mannequin for a Kempo artist to work his techniques. Hell it's just common sense to realize what works and what doesn't. I have to admit I did like the film The Perfect Weapon though, wonder whatever happened to Jeff Speakman?

Edited June 26, 2020 by CT KID

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

On 6/26/2020 at 3:36 PM, CT KID said:

A lot of his techniques look like just a quick flapping of the hands with no power. Tom Bleecker wrote in his book Unsettled Matters that the lions share of Kempo where defenses against an opponent attacking with a step over locked out right punch and Bruce pointed out that no streetfighter attacked like this. Bruce was quick and elusive and wouldn't stand still  like a stationary mannequin for a Kempo artist to work his techniques. Hell it's just common sense to realize what works and what doesn't. I have to admit I did like the film The Perfect Weapon though, wonder whatever happened to Jeff Speakman?

Jeff Speakman had health issues last I heard, sadly. There are a few Kempo practitioners in MMA, but neither use anything Parker taught. I had a kempo instructor that had us do all that stuff, but then when he sparred he just used boxing, the kicks and the judo he learned. It was like practicing one thing and doing another. I think a lot of martial arts schools are like that, where I guy that can street fight learns karate, then teaches everyone like it will help them. But Karate and Kung Fu are based on unrealistic, two or three blow best case scenarios, and will not face the worst case- getting tackled and mounted, etc. Parker is right up there with Freud as a great 20th century fraud.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

Also, it didn't take Bruce to figure out no one would stand there. Most people would just look at the demos and see that it was a series of unanswered blows, people would either move away or clinch, not just stand there. Ugh, the time I wasted on that crap. As I said before, the Asian martial art that really impressed everyone was Judo. Not Kung Fu, not Karate. What impressed people about Karate was brick breaking, which as a scam for the most part, The problem for these money/cult guys is that you can go to a YMCA and learn Judo cheap, join  a wrestling team in school for nothing, or go to a cheap boxing gym. How can you make money if what you see is what you get?

Take an esoteric fighting art from Asia and say it is too deadly for the ring (and Bruce was just as guilty of this nonsense) and fool all the foreigners, that is how. If you study long enough, you will be invincible, but never bother having to tests yourself like a common thug, you are a modern samurai or monk, etc. Most of these guys are deluded or conmen, and the ones that can fight most likely could fight very well before they ever took a class. Some guys can just jump high, and others can't, no matter who coaches them. A great series of books are Meditations on Violence by Rory Miller. I don't agree with what he says in terms of police use of force, but his insider knowledge of violent predators, educational beatdowns and the "monkey dance" are what 99% of martial arts schools miss out. And as far as the ring vs street goes, why learn a martial art if you cannot use it as a martial art? You would be better off as a fitness buff and tailor your workouts to your body, etc, instead of a "style" that can injure you long term- Tae Kwon Do, Wu Shu, Northern Shaolin, etc?

 

[DrNgor]

33 minutes ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

And as far as the ring vs street goes, why learn a martial art if you cannot use it as a martial art? You would be better off as a fitness buff and tailor your workouts to your body, etc, instead of a "style" that can injure you long term- Tae Kwon Do, Wu Shu, Northern Shaolin, etc?

Can you expound on that final bit about a style that can injure you long term?

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

1 hour ago, DrNgor said:

Can you expound on that final bit about a style that can injure you long term?

Tae Kwon Do and Wu Shu I would say are the two. Hip, back and knee injuries. Most of these instructors bodies are either a mess, or they stop actually doing the kicks and acrobatics that they teach. I know a lot of kids with all kinds of problems from Wu Shu, not unlike gymnastics. From Bryant Fong (who has some skeletons in his closet, but he is a decent fellow who trained under Wong Jack Man) "The real victims are the athletes. Nandu has casualties. Fong elucidates: “Most of the athletes – and this is true for most of the teams I’ve seen this year (Macao, Hong Kong, Russia, Japan and the Beijing A, B, and C team) – they all have to wear back braces, ankle braces, knee braces, almost everything you need a brace for. Because if you miss it by a little bit, the chance of injury is great. More than 60% of the athletes have injuries. So that tells you something is wrong. Think about traditional kung fu. You practice it for your health, and for combat, but you never hurt yourself doing it. It was designed to improve health and designed to be useful. The techniques they are introducing don’t have any of those aspects.”

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

I will tell you, Tae Kwon Do is the same, all those machine gun kicks can destroy your hips, though many Asians are structurally a little different so they can handle it better. So many "kickers" such as Van Damme, Peter Cunningham, Steve Anderson, and yes, Bill Wallace, have hip replacements, most before 50! The idea of a kick was a fast, surprise move, done maybe once or twice in a street fight, if at all, and if for kickboxing or MMA, roundhouse and front kick only. No hook kick, axe kick, spin back, etc. We are now seeing some fighters that I can imagine starting Tae Kwon Do as a little kid pulling off some spin kicks, but for someone starting at 16 or 17 they are a waste of time.  The Tan Tao Liang stuff is beautiful, but useless for the most part. 1 out of 1,000 competitors that make it to the top can pull it off, and most can't use it against a top tier opponent. The issue is simple. You have to spend a high percentage of time to perfect a very low percentage move. Every now and then, a guy like this pops up. You have to remember, the guy below has been training since he was a little kid. He is literally a Fong Sai Yuk in real life. His dad was his sensei and he spent years in tournaments and kicboxing before MMA. And he's probably better then anyone around 1,000 miles of him. What I am trying to say is it is very, very, very hard to replicate. Especially in the Ego driven, cult environment of most "traditional" martial arts schools.

 

[paimeifist]

I agree with your rants @NoKUNGFUforYU. I know nothing about the actor this thread is about, but your general point is good.

 

With that said, I disagree that they aren’t good for health purposes. This all comes down to a reasonable approach, as with anything else. Tae Kwon Do, kicking, and/or acrobatics can all be healthy and very beneficial if applied in an appropriate and progressive manner.

 

As someone who competed in boxing for over a decade at both the amateur and professional level, it’s very easy to see how impractical and potentially dangerous this stuff is if you’ve really spent some time in combat sports.

 

Dangerous in the way that a person may get themselves in trouble thinking they know how to fight, when their “martial art” may make them less capable of defending themself than just raging out...

 

With that said, I don’t really allow those thoughts to affect how I see movies whatsoever, I just view the actors as screen fighters, rather than fighters.

Edited June 29, 2020 by paimeifist

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

8 hours ago, paimeifist said:

I agree with your rants @NoKUNGFUforYU. I know nothing about the actor this thread is about, but your general point is good.

 

With that said, I disagree that they aren’t good for health purposes. This all comes down to a reasonable approach, as with anything else. Tae Kwon Do, kicking, and/or acrobatics can all be healthy and very beneficial if applied in an appropriate and progressive manner.

 

As someone who competed in boxing for over a decade at both the amateur and professional level, it’s very easy to see how impractical and potentially dangerous this stuff is if you’ve really spent some time in combat sports.

 

Dangerous in the way that a person may get themselves in trouble thinking they know how to fight, when their “martial art” may make them less capable of defending themself than just raging out...

 

With that said, I don’t really allow those thoughts to affect how I see movies whatsoever, I just view the actors as screen fighters, rather than fighters.

Well said. I still agree to disagree on acrobatics and so forth, as I have so many injured friends, but I get the general health aspect. But everything is on point and Paimefist has more full contact experience then me by miles.

[Ninja Sinai]

I know someone who lives locally who mastered the iron palm technique and this guy could literally touch people with the lightest tap with his fingers on your arm and moments later you would have bruises on your arm. He had to go through years of rigorous training under a master who taught him, but sadly he now has really bad pains and arthritis in his hands. Which made me think, man is it really worth it?? Heck no!

[AlbertV]

On 6/28/2020 at 4:26 PM, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

Jeff Speakman had health issues last I heard, sadly. There are a few Kempo practitioners in MMA, but neither use anything Parker taught. I had a kempo instructor that had us do all that stuff, but then when he sparred he just used boxing, the kicks and the judo he learned. It was like practicing one thing and doing another. I think a lot of martial arts schools are like that, where I guy that can street fight learns karate, then teaches everyone like it will help them. But Karate and Kung Fu are based on unrealistic, two or three blow best case scenarios, and will not face the worst case- getting tackled and mounted, etc. Parker is right up there with Freud as a great 20th century fraud.

Speakman battled throat cancer in 2013 and beat it.  He's focused solely on teaching these days. 

https://jeffspeakman.com/about/

 

Edited June 29, 2020 by AlbertV

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

That's good to hear!! I wish him well. I liked his movies.

[CT KID]

I can attest to Taekwondo taking it's toll on the hips, been doing it off and on for almost thirty years and when I try to kick now just in the air it causes terrible pain, especially the roundhouse kick. It's not as bad if I'm striking a solid object like my BOB torso and head dummy. I'm going on 48 and it might be some arthritis too lol. It's hard to do the high kicks when you get older because if you don't keep up the stretching and conditioning it goes quick if you take some time off. When I was young it was no problem to do high kicks cold and have a long lay off and get right back into it. It sucks getting older don't it?

[saltysam]

I'd like to see this in widescreen

[CT KID]

2 hours ago, saltysam said:

I'd like to see this in widescreen

Trust me, it won't make it any better!

[DrNgor]

I watched this tonight. It was not very good. The script requires Bong Soo Han to act more than fight, something he is definitely not up to. Ed Parker is supposed to be playing the world's greatest assassin, but he looks like an over-the-hill beach bum. The fights are not photographed or edited well--thank goodness Speakman was able to make kempo look good in his films. The final fight is a bit of a gyp, too. And the movie ends in a typical "70s bummer" fashion, but in a strangely non-sequitur way.

[dionbrother]

KILL THE GOLDEN GOOSE is a perfect example of Joe Lewis' belief that it's better to train a gymnast or dancer for a martial arts movie than to use real martial artists.  Real karate and kung fu men "stiffen up" when you turn on the camera, whereas a dancer or gymnast is very physically expressive, more cinematic. 

Ed Parker was both saint and sinner in the martial arts.  American Kenpo started out as a interesting chop suey art(and Bruce Lee totally lifted Ed's philosophies for JKD) but later evolved into a bit of a mess.  Ed seemed to produce an equal amount of great teachers(Dan Inosanto, Steve Muhammad/Sanders, Joe Dimmick, etc.) and bad ones,.  In the early 60s, Parker would go to boxing gyms and recruit students by challenging boxers to hit him and none could.  This was witnessed by actor William Smith who became Ed's student but then left when Jimmy Woo broke off for his own school.  In the early 70s, he trained Benny "The Jet" Uquidez for competition.  Chuck Norris even trained at his school to sharpen his tournament skills.  Ed brought a business sense and strategy to martial arts which was both good and bad.   And also showed how important it was to connect to Hollywood.  I took Kenpo for three years and saw the positives and negatives of the system.  It's way too padded and over complicated, primarily for business reasons, but I can say that about a lot of systems.  Parker let his health go to shit in the 70s and it's unfortunate.  He kept changing the style so much that when he died at age 59, American Kenpo was a mess. 

Bong Soo Han was a great martial arts teacher, but not an actor.  In FORCE FIVE, his performance was dubbed by James Hong.

BTW, I could not get through the GOOSE print on Amazon Prime.  Image tended to strobe and stutter.

 

 

[Jesse Smooth]

On 6/26/2020 at 3:36 PM, CT KID said:

A lot of his techniques look like just a quick flapping of the hands with no power. Tom Bleecker wrote in his book Unsettled Matters that the lions share of Kempo where defenses against an opponent attacking with a step over locked out right punch and Bruce pointed out that no streetfighter attacked like this. Bruce was quick and elusive and wouldn't stand still  like a stationary mannequin for a Kempo artist to work his techniques. Hell it's just common sense to realize what works and what doesn't. I have to admit I did like the film The Perfect Weapon though, wonder whatever happened to Jeff Speakman?

Jeff actually has a school (ran by two of his students) in my area. Kenpo 5.0, which is supposed to be ‘complete’. Personally myself, I’d go for Kajukenbo and we have a few schools in my area. I’m considering taking a class at one of the rec centers in my city.

Edited May 25, 2021 by Jesse Smooth

[Jesse Smooth]

On 6/28/2020 at 2:16 PM, DrNgor said:

Can you expound on that final bit about a style that can injure you long term?

Even BJJ practitioners suffer back, shoulder injuries, etc. 

[Jesse Smooth]

Kenpo (like Tai Chi) is so misunderstood. I bought a copy of Ed’s first book, which is a good reference of striking and IIRC has calisthenics and a few weight lifting routines. I need to look at it again.

[dionbrother]

Every single person I know who studies BJJ ends up with a back injury.  Every. Single. One.   Not dissing it, since it's a fun art to learn, but this is the reality I know.