Tom Yum Goong DVD review (US vs UK)

[Guest The Running Man]

Here ya go.

[Guest limubai2000]

Thanks. Good review as usual. I'm going to get the DD version though because I only have a bootleg from Bali, Indonesia at the moment. Thanks for catching that crop job too.

Looking forward to your review of Seven Swords though, even though I think that film was horrible.

[Guest morgoth]

Thanks for the info Running Man but this blows. I wish I would have gotten the Premier Asia version a long time ago. I have a gift gard to Best Buy and I am gonna have to just get teh DD release. I couldn't wait to get this so that I could break the Protector disc in half but if it has the better pic quality I don't think I will be able to do that. MAn I am in a tough position!

[Guest Yi Long]

Already thought it would be hard to top the UK release. Especially since the R1 would have both the cut and the uncut version taking up space...

Now, during the Logan commentary track he describes some changes with the careful wording of "re-voicing". This is extremely convenient as it seems to be a choice word that Logan chose to not directly incriminate himself or his company by being called liars. Truth is, there is no literally "re-voicing" going on with the Thai or Chinese dialog. What was done with The Protector is basically what Harvey Weinstein has been doing to Chinese films for some time now and that is by taking the subtitles and having them totally made up (i.e. Iron Monkey, Infernal Affairs, Hero, etc...) . There is no other way to describe it. It is a blatant move and it is a disgusting one.

Sounds like the same annoying bullshit Bey tried to pull on the PA Ong-Bak release, when he was praising the new score instea dof the original Thai score... it annoyed me so much I just stopped watching the PA version altogether.

It's really sad that clueless idiots like Bey and Harvey have so much control and influence on the movie that we would like to watch... and then @#%$ them up.

[Guest The Running Man]

Sounds like the same annoying bullshit Bey tried to pull on the PA Ong-Bak release, when he was praising the new score instea dof the original Thai score... it annoyed me so much I just stopped watching the PA version altogether.

Well Brother Yi....I guess you're going to hate me. :\

You see...I also prefer the PA score of Ong Bak to it's original one. In fact, but some distance at that since I find the original score to be uninspired crap (mostly techno beats) while PA's score was this orchestral one that despite what people said online, does retain it's Asian roots...even more so than the original one.

(ducks for cover)

Re-scoring a movie to me is interesting nowadays because some fans that come from the old days will say that they prefer the score that is on the English dub for like Wheels on Meals but then bash the re-scoring a film nowadays.

I understand the concept, but I'm always open to hearing a new score seeing as how in the past I've preferred alternate scores to films (J. Peter Robinson's scores to Rumble in the Bronx, First Strike, and Mr. Nice guy also reign way supreme over the originals in my opinion). Of course unless the original was so perfect and memorable that taking it away would be like taking a piece of the film with it then I would have a problem with it.

As for as Logan goes, my problem with him defending Harvey Weinstein is because his views are obviously mending to be in such a way that would allow him to "further" his career. There's no real solid ground to anyone defending what Harvey does and you still claim that you are a fan of these movies.

That's like one of the biggest Japanese fans of Westerns turning around and telling some Japanese company to cut out 30 minutes of the film and completely make of the Japanese subtitles for release because it will "reach" a bigger audience in Asia.

I remember Mike Leeder said that Weinstein releasing Iron Monkey is a good thing despite some changes because the movie got released in the US and the bootleggers can't get any of the money.

That's an example right there of how that makes no sense. First of all, those small changes include a complete re-edit of the film and a subtitles that are totally made up. If you put that into logic, that gives people enough reason to keep bootlegging a title if they have to since the official release is not giving them what they want.

And I am sick of Logan continually saying do such helps the film reach a wider audience. That's bullsh*t. Tell any normal person who doesn't know that the Asian film they are about to watch is heavily altered and I highly doubt they will still want to pay money for it. First thing they'll ask is, "Where can I get the original?"

And I know this because I've done it dozens of times.

[Guest Yi Long]

Well Brother Yi....I guess you're going to hate me.

You see...I also prefer the PA score of Ong Bak to it's original one. In fact, but some distance at that since I find the original score to be uninspired crap (mostly techno beats) while PA's score was this orchestral one that despite what people said online, does retain it's Asian roots...even more so than the original one.

(ducks for cover)

Don't worry... Running Sister

I dont hate people just for what they like (unless a person likes raping babies or whatever...)

The reason it pissed me off, because a; for ME, I LOVED the old score. I thought it was very catchy and fitted the action on the screen perfectly.

PA obviously changed it, and when the market-chase scene was going on, and the new music was playing, it really lost it's magic for me. I mean it's still a great scene ofcourse, but I felt the new music didnt fit at all, and I missed the old thumping beat...

So then you hear Bey Logan on the commentary praising this new soundtrack etc, and man... it just pissed me off.

If they had also included the option to have the original soundtrack, I would have been OK with Bey's opinion. Hey, if HE (and you) like the new track better, fine with me...but I certainly dont, so I hate they replaced it, and obviously I'm not going to agree with Bey's opinion on this matter... so it just sounds very hypocritical of the guy to praise the new soundtrack, just because his friend Brian composed it... and they didnt leave any alternative on the disk, for people who would have preferred the old soundtrack.

Re-scoring a movie to me is interesting nowadays because some fans that come from the old days will say that they prefer the score that is on the English dub for like Wheels on Meals but then bash the re-scoring a film nowadays.

Well, I can understand why people have grown fond of a soundtrack or dubvoices etc, cause they have grown up with the movie in that way. I think it all has alot to do with what your first experiences are with a movie. Maybe if PA Ong-Bak would have been the first time I watched the movie, and I would only have heard that soundtrack and had gotten used to it, I might also have liked it. But i didnt. I saw the Thai version and making-off etc, and that soundtrack is just so catchy and cool... and to me it was perfect for that movie

But yeah, it's always a little bit strange to suddenly see a movie you watched when you were younger, when it had 4:3 and dubs and other songs, and to suddenly experience it 16:9 widescreen, canto language and original songs. And yeah, I'm sure there are movies where I would like the english 'versions' a bit more, but still, I would like to have the original version anyway.

I understand the concept, but I'm always open to hearing a new score seeing as how in the past I've preferred alternate scores to films (J. Peter Robinson's scores to Rumble in the Bronx, First Strike, and Mr. Nice guy also reign way supreme over the originals in my opinion). Of course unless the original was so perfect and memorable that taking it away would be like taking a piece of the film with it then I would have a problem with it.

I agree with you. But still, even when that is the case, we are now in the era of DVD, and in the case of Ong-bak, they should have offered us at least the choice to hear the original score.

As for as Logan goes, my problem with him defending Harvey Weinstein is because his views are obviously mending to be in such a way that would allow him to "further" his career. There's no real solid ground to anyone defending what Harvey does and you still claim that you are a fan of these movies.

That's like one of the biggest Japanese fans of Westerns turning around and telling some Japanese company to cut out 30 minutes of the film and completely make of the Japanese subtitles for release because it will "reach" a bigger audience in Asia.

I remember Mike Leeder said that Weinstein releasing Iron Monkey is a good thing despite some changes because the movie got released in the US and the bootleggers can't get any of the money.

That's an example right there of how that makes no sense. First of all, those small changes include a complete re-edit of the film and a subtitles that are totally made up. If you put that into logic, that gives people enough reason to keep bootlegging a title if they have to since the official release is not giving them what they want.

And I am sick of Logan continually saying do such helps the film reach a wider audience. That's bullsh*t. Tell any normal person who doesn't know that the Asian film they are about to watch is heavily altered and I highly doubt they will still want to pay money for it. First thing they'll ask is, "Where can I get the original?"

And I know this because I've done it dozens of times.

Agree 100%. And also had the same response when I said to people that they were about to buy a CUT version, or stuff. A girl in my class wanted to buy Ong-Bak, and the Dutch release, like every western release, is @#%$ up, so I burned her a bootleg. Not something I make a habbit off, but I dont want these companies making money by selling a butchered version.

And yeah, Bey has often irritated me. I believe it was on one of the old-skool Sammo movies how he commented how funny a certain scene was... ha ha... but how it would probably not cross over very well with western audiences nowadays, and it's not essential to the plot... so a western company could cut that out, in his opinion(!)

I mean, WTF!? The movie was a well-loved classic among fans (I THINK it was Warriors Two btw), usually very highly rated, and most genre fans also like the occasional Sammo humour. And even if they didnt like it, they sure as hell dont want stuff being cut from the movie(!)

Agree with you on Iron Monkey as well. I know for a 100% sure that that movie would have made just as much money, maybe even more, of they had just released it in it's original form, and with the normal, honest marketing. It's a GOOD kung fu movie, and people will watch it. The cutting sure as hell didnt make Iron Monkey any better then it already was, did it? It only made it shorter.

But it's sad. I mean, 50 years ago, western hacks were also cutting up great Kurosawa movies, and other asian classics...

Time has taught us that now, years later, that is being regarded as a huge shame and pity... and those classics are now being released, or at least being requested by the fans, uncut. I still dont have a clue why Fist of Legend hasnt had an uncut, subbed release yet. Or Drunken Master 2. Both just great great movies, and all the friends I have shown them to (uncut subbed versions, obviously) fell in love with them and loved them...

And them some big Yabba and other idiots in the business buy the rights, and start thinking " well... we cant just be lazy and just paste some subs under there and release it...(!)... we have to try to make it even BETTER, for that 'western' audience... " ... and that's just bullshit.

They dont know a crap about good movies. Have you WATCHED ANY of Bey's movies where he had a creative input? Pretty much most of them rank among HK's worst flicks. Harvey doesnt know anything either, except that he apparently doesnt trust asians to be able to make good movies...

Man, this stuff is just depressing. It really is a shame that guys like Bey and Harvey have the influence and power to ruin all these great movies :|

It's like they think that 'the western public' only wants cut down, and dumbly dubbed asian flicks with lots of 'action'. Maybe when you're target audience is a bunch of dyslexic hillbillies in a trailerpark... but the general teen/young-adult/adult just wants to see these movies uncut and subbed. At least, all the people I know do...

[Guest WongFury]

does any one know which versions put the deleted elbow drop scene with the first fight with johnny, and the burning temple fight where he fights like two or three guys before he fights the main three in this scene?

[Guest The Running Man]

No version of the film exists with those scenes in them.

[Guest Dion Brother]

"It's like they think that 'the western public' only wants cut down, and dumbly dubbed asian flicks with lots of 'action'. Maybe when you're target audience is a bunch of dyslexic hillbillies in a trailerpark... but the general teen/young-adult/adult just wants to see these movies uncut and subbed. At least, all the people I know do... "

They've never targeted these movies to hillbillies. If that were the case, Kid Rock and Hank Williams Jr. would be on the remixed new sountracks instead of the RZA. And most general teen/young adults don't care or know what an uncut version is. Most people just aren't as deep into movies as us. Films are disposable or superficial entertainment to the masses. You are either into these movies or you aren't. Most of us grew up on dubbed, chopped versions but still loved these flicks anyway. You can't make or lure people into liking Asian martial arts movies. Hell, I loved Cinema Group Home Video's release of Jackie Chan's POLICE FORCE in 1988. The pan-and-scan, hokey dubbing (actually quite good compared to today's dub jobs), editing and new music didn't detract from enjoying a damn good film. Quality does rise to the top.

You guys have said it before, and I'll say it again: the Weinsteins and Bey Logan are not imaginitive or creative people, they try to leech off the creativity of filmmakers so they can get an artistic credit themselves. Even US and European filmmakers have run afoul of the Weinstein's "creativity." Only Quentin Tarantino, Kevin Smith and Robert Rodriguez are immune to their meddling.

If THE PROTECTOR had been a huge hit, the Weinsteins could boast they improved it and take credit for its success. Odd that consistently poor or middling box office performances since the release of SUPERCOP in 1996 have never made difference to them. And Bey Logan's knowledge of the Western market is about as good as my knowledge of 17th Century Russian crop rotation. I've chatted with him via email a few times. Marketing to Americans is not his forte.

[Guest morgoth]

HAving only seen the Protector and not Tom Yum Goong, I am very glad that the movie was not successful in American theaters. You are exactly right Dion Brother that then they would be boasting about how great of a job they did. The movie made no sense so I am eagerly waiting to see the movie in full. I remember in the Protector there was one scene where TOny Jaa gets beaten up by Nathan Jones and then is sitting up against a wall on a street and a girl walks by and helps him. After the girl's first appearence she doesn't return. Scenes like this kept happening and it really po'ed me.

[Guest WongFury]

i was refering to the fight where he first confronts the guy johnny outside on the street and he runs up on top of one guy to elbow drop one in the head...as seen in the trailer...and the burning temple scene where before he fights eddy gordo guy he fights of a couple of guys before he fights him...you can clearly see two bodies on the floor in the cut version i had which was the chinese vcd when it came out..i notice they cut those parts of what was seen in the trailer..so im sure they exist..i just wasn't sure if it was ever added into the uncut thai version or any others.

[Guest Yi Long]

I have seen the movie when it was in Hong Kong cinemas in 2005, but dont remember Tony fighting anyone before the eddie gordo guy. So I'm guessing it wasnt in that version either. I might have noticed the bodies on the floor, but I guess I just assumed that they were victims by the bad guys...

Dont remember the dropping elbow either, tbh.

[Guest The Running Man]

i was refering to the fight where he first confronts the guy johnny outside on the street and he runs up on top of one guy to elbow drop one in the head...as seen in the trailer...and the burning temple scene where before he fights eddy gordo guy he fights of a couple of guys before he fights him...

Dude, I just answered your question. No version of the film has those scenes in it. Just cause something's in the trailer does not mean it is definitely in the film. Trailers are almost always made before the film is finished in post and they just use footage that has been filmed to make it. That means there are times when footage is used that doesn't make the final cut.

Same thing with Tsui Hark's Time and Tide. There's a bunch of stuff in the teaser that is not in the film, including what looks like to be a motorcycle chase.

[Guest morgoth]

There is a great line from Andy Lau in Fulltime Killer where he says that even a bad movie can have a great trailer. Just had to add that:rolleyes

[Guest morgoth]

I have to say this release is amazing. I am truly amazed. I hope for more releases that can come close to this.

I agree with you Runing man that the music by the RZA was well done(I think you said that). I didn't notice the pic quality but it looked very clear on your screen shots that is was different. I will have to check it again but can anyone confirm that is does seem to be the same quality?

Also, the uncut version is a WAYYYYYYYYYYYYY better version than the US theatrical release ('The Stupid Protector'). Though that is of course obvious.

[Guest gfanikf]

I posted this at ADVDG and hope for a nice response before it got buried when some guy quoted the ENTIRE review. Rented the DVD today very happy with it (I don't have DTS and (I and I'm sure I'm the only liked) liked the US cut) will most likely pick this up for retail.

From my original post

Still I like The Protector vs TYG. Thank god Tony Jaa is going to direct his own films now. Its not like Prachya Pinkaew was Ng Sg Yuen to TJ's Jackie. Prachya Pinkaew really sucks (to the point I enjoyed The Protector more). I'll be getting the DD release as I want the Protector cut and I'm fine with the TYG quality enough not to want to import Warrior King.

If anything is to be remembered by this forgettable lightweight offering, it's Logan reaching an all time low by describing the Rza as, "one of the foremost individuals who single handedly have made Asian cinema accessible to mainstream American audiences."

That is accurate to an extent with his use of sampling and producing Wu-Tangs albums. I know one store sold in 6 months 800-900 copies of Three Evil Masters based on the sampling of its dialogue. You may not like it, but he did bring a lot of Martial Arts films (Shaws) to the attention of large sgements of the public.

HAving only seen the Protector and not Tom Yum Goong, I am very glad that the movie was not successful in American theaters.

Actually the Protector is the most successfully Thai movie in American history. No, I'm not kidding

[Guest morgoth]

It was in theaters in Omaha, NE for 1 week max. Protector is watchable but TYG feels a lot more like a real movie to me.

[Guest gfanikf]

Fair enough. I just wanted to point out that it wasn't a bomb or anything. It was also marketed and distributed ALOT better than Ong Bak and made about two or three times the BO (a modest 12-15 mill, but expanding TJ even more among the populace )

Plus saw TV ads today for the DVD.

[Guest Yi Long]

It's a pretty sad day in cinematic history when the butchered version of TYG (The 'Protector') is so bad, that it actually manages to make the UNCUT TYG look like a good movie...

I really wish the western companies will one day grasp the fact that butchering and cutting and dubbing and altering these movies, will not make them BETTER, but 99% of the time will actually make them worse.

Sadly, I doubt they ever will.

[Guest morgoth]

I actually saw it twice in theaters and loved it but I knew there was something missing. I had no idea it was 27 minutes of the movie!

[Guest bertie wooster2]

WongFury, here's an extract from a lengthy Thai interview with Prachya that may shed some light on your question. It was translated and posted by a generous member of the forums at www.tonyjaa.org (you can probably still read the whole thing there).

Audience: Do you think that that bone breaking scene is too much? It's good at first but it starts being too long.

PP: Actually the first version that we showed to the foreigners, it's longer than this. After movie end, many said they like it very much, some said it's too long. So I think people who interested in martial art will like it a lot, people who don't like or look over the arts will feel it's too long. The scene that we cut out around 1 minute, I almost fought with

Jaa. Jaa designed all the moves that aren't the same. I had to ask him, because some people don't like it, to take some of the moves that look similar out. In the end, I had Panna cut, Jaa reviewed it, I sit still doing nothing. *laugh* I think it's something about an art. I try to judge to make everyone happy.

Audience: I'm a martial art fan, I don't think the fight scene is too long, actually I like it. I'd like to see all the cut scene in DVD. Can you do that?

PP: I want to talk about this too, because there're rumors, but we didn't comfirm any. The truth is, we kept editing even it's almost August 4 which was press preview, we're still editing. Especially fight scenes, we cut out around 6 minutes. This point, Sia Jiang also want a special version of TYG for hardcore action fans, but I prepared to have them on DVD, so there's the news about 2 versions and it will be in theater too. At first, Sia Jiang told me that if it will be on DVD, why not in theater too? But I said better not to, because at that point, people will lose all the hype already. So the conclusion is there's only one version in theater, although there's the news about another one.

So there's still hope of those scenes seeing the light of day (and the longer bone-breaking scene can be seen on Youtube).

[Guest WongFury]

thank you for this.

[Guest limubai2000]

CHUD did a DVD review here and they just shredded Bey Logan (rightly so!) for his commentary and editing of the film!

[Guest ggblue]

does any one know which versions put the deleted elbow drop scene with the first fight with johnny,

I have a scene like that in my DVD version. Someone gave me a Thai version copy (bottlegged?) that is subtitled in English.

[Guest Yi Long]

Great review by CHUD. The reviewer nailed it right on the spot.

A shame that Weinstein, Tarentino, Logan and White will most probably not even learn a lesson from all this. They're too busy swimming in money they earned by profiting from other people's work, and they all think they're doing great things for 'the fans' ...

It will be a very good day when these 4 people would retire from the film-industry.