Missing Venoms ?

[ShawAngela]

I know that this group of actors has been called The Venoms due to their roles in the movie Five Venoms, but I have the feeling that the actors Chin Siu Ho and Ricky Chen TIen Chi should have been part of the Venoms too.

All eight of them complete each other very well  in some movies and that's always a pleasure to see them playing in the same (too rare) movie...

[DrNgor]

So the "six" Venoms would be:

Kuo Chi (Philip Kwok) - The Lizard
Lu Feng - The Centipede
Lo Meng - The Toad
Sun Chien - The Scorpion
Chiang Sheng - "Cutie Pie"
Wei Pai - The Snake (although some people don't think of him when they are referring to the Venom Mob, because he was only in three of their films)

A lot of fans refer to Wang Li as the Sixth Venom, because he was a frequent presence in their films.

And that brings us to your point, @ShawAngela -- Chin Siu-Ho and Ricky Cheng. As I understand it, Chin Siu-Ho was closer to the Venoms during their Shaw Period, having important roles in films like Masked Avengers and Two Champions of Shaolin, while Ricky Cheng worked with them more in Chang Cheh's post-Shaw Taiwanese films, like Attack of the Joyful Goddess and Nine Demons. I also assume that Ricky Cheng studied at the same Peking Opera school as Kuo Chi, Lu Feng and Chiang Sheng. Whether or not you consider them Venoms #7 and #8, or #8 and #9 (if you count both Wei Pai and Wang Li), is certainly up for interpretation. There are probably other actors who interacted more with them during their Shaw Brothers period than these two, though.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

By that rationale you should include guys like Yeung Hung, Chui Tai Ping, Chu Ko and many others..... referred to back in the day as the "baby venoms". The Venom boys ar the five main guys to me and that is that.

[panku]

I think I posted this back during the year of posts that were lost when the forum went down, maybe it will be helpful. It was my attempt to sort out exactly what was a Venom. I think I was inspired to do it after reading Dr Craig Reed's book, The Ultimate Guide to Martial Arts of the 1970's, where he agonizes over what is a Venom, which was something I never had a problem with. I made a list of all the films that had at least 2 of the original 6 lead actors from The Five Venoms in it. This included films in the later years that were not directed by Chang Cheh, mostly with Lo Meng and Sun Chien which are definitely not Venoms films. Then I added all the other regulars and some important guests.

I would have liked to list the films in production order since that would be more true, showing when an actor joined and left the group, but I do not have that information, so these are listed by release date. For now, there are a few key films that I know were worked on earlier than their release. Those films are Life Gamble (started in 1977, you can see Sun Chien is not yet a part of the group), Heaven and Hell (started in 1975, you can see by comparing supporting actors that it was mostly created between 1977 and 1979 and Ten Tigers of Kwantung which was started when Wei Pak was still a part of the group and completed in 1980 when Chin Siu Ho and Lung Tien Hsiang become part of the team.

The only exception is Five Element Ninjas which only has 1 original Venom, but somehow I felt it should be included, probably because of the supporting cast and direction by Chang Cheh. I think at the time my conclusion was that in order for a film to be a Venoms film it has to have been directed by Chang Cheh and have at least 3 of the original Venoms in it with the exception of FEN. I don't think I ever came to a conclusion about the Brave Archer films; some scenes do feel like Venoms films, some do not. Ninja in the Deadly Trap never felt to me like a Venoms film, but that might be because I've only ever seen it on low quality fullscreen english dub.

Edited April 29, 2020 by panku

[ShawAngela]

29 minutes ago, panku said:

I think I posted this back during the year of posts that were lost when the forum went down, maybe it will be helpful. It was my attempt to sort out exactly what was a Venom. I think I was inspired to do it after reading Dr Craig Reed's book, The Ultimate Guide to Martial Arts of the 1970's, where he agonizes over what is a Venom, which was something I never had a problem with. I made a list of all the films that had at least 2 of the original 6 lead actors from The Five Venoms in it. This included films in the later years that were not directed by Chang Cheh, mostly with Lo Meng and Sun Chien which are definitely not Venoms films. Then I added all the other regulars and some important guests.

I would have liked to list the films in production order since that would be more true, showing when an actor joined and left the group, but I do not have that information, so these are listed by release date. For now, there are a few key films that I know were worked on earlier than their release. Those films are Life Gamble (started in 1977, you can see Sun Chien is not yet a part of the group), Heaven and Hell (started in 1975, you can see by comparing supporting actors that it was mostly created between 1977 and 1979 and Ten Tigers of Kwantung which was started when Wei Pak was still a part of the group and completed in 1980 when Chin Siu Ho and Lung Tien Hsiang become part of the team.

The only exception is Five Element Ninjas which only has 1 original Venom, but somehow I felt it should be included, probably because of the supporting cast and direction by Chang Cheh. I think at the time my conclusion was that in order for a film to be a Venoms film it has to have been directed by Chang Cheh and have at least 3 of the original Venoms in it with the exception of FEN. I don't think I ever came to a conclusion about the Brave Archer films; some scenes do feel like Venoms films, some do not. Ninja in the Deadly Trap never felt to me like a Venoms film, but that might be because I've only ever seen it on low quality fullscreen english dub.

Thank you so much for this, @panku ! You definitely are a " man of the lists " !!

Just a question : who is FEN ? Sorry, I'm not a  " woman of  initials "...

 

Regarding Sun Chien, someone in another thread said that he was really underused at the Shaws and that he didn't have many opportunities to shine. Maybe it's because he also played in TV series, mainly for the Morris Weinberg company, or at least, he had there the opportunity to show his talents.

 

[thekfc]

 

3 minutes ago, ShawAngela said:

Just a question : who is FEN ? Sorry, I'm not a  " woman of  initials "

Abbreviation for Five Element Ninjas.

[ShawAngela]

Oh, yes, sorry, and thanks for the quick answer, @thekfc !

[DrNgor]

2 hours ago, TibetanWhiteCrane said:

The Venom boys ar the five main guys to me and that is that.

You don't count Wei Pai, even though he technically played a Venom?

[Tex Killer]

14 minutes ago, DrNgor said:

You don't count Wei Pai, even though he technically played a Venom?

In movie Chiang Sheng isn`t even one of 5 deadly venoms as we know. Wei Pai also had bigger role in flick but it`s common he is not counted as one of venom guys. Which he certainly was.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

18 minutes ago, DrNgor said:

You don't count Wei Pai, even though he technically played a Venom?

No I don't..... part of that may be down to the fact that I can't stand the sight of him.

[thekfc]

Officially it would be 5 poisons : Centipede, Snake, Scorpion, Lizard & Toad and 1 hybrid : student. 

Although WP was not in many of the group movies he is a poison/venom (he is the Snake). Without the Snake then there is only 4 main/core poisons and not 5.

There are only 3 complete core venom members movies: 5DV, IS & KVTGA

Then there are core venom members "associated" movies with 3-5 core members making an appearance:  Flag of Iron, Cripple Avengers, The Daredevils, etc,. 

Then there are core venom members "assisting" movies: Brave Archer series, Chinatown Kid, Shaolin Temple, Naval Commandos, etc,.

There is 1 "assisting" movie with ALL members present: TToK. 

Then there are Venom "supporting" members: Wang Li, WLW, CSH, CK, etc,.

Opinion may vary, but if you want to call it a complete Venoms then it would be the 5 poisons and the Hybrid - the presence of ALL core member of the original movie: The 5 Poisons.

 

 

[panku]

On 4/29/2020 at 3:10 PM, thekfc said:

Officially it would be 5 poisons : Centipede, Snake, Scorpion, Lizard & Toad and 1 hybrid : student. 

Although WP was not in many of the group movies he is a poison/venom (he is the Snake). Without the Snake then there is only 4 main/core poisons and not 5.

There are only 3 complete core venom members movies: 5DV, IS & KVTGA

Then there are core venom members "associated" movies with 3-5 core members making an appearance:  Flag of Iron, Cripple Avengers, The Daredevils, etc,. 

Then there are core venom members "assisting" movies: Brave Archer series, Chinatown Kid, Shaolin Temple, Naval Commandos, etc,.

There is 1 "assisting" movie with ALL members present: TToK. 

Then there are Venom "supporting" members: Wang Li, WLW, CSH, CK, etc,.

Opinion may vary, but if you want to call it a complete Venoms then it would be the 5 poisons and the Hybrid - the presence of ALL core member of the original movie: The 5 Poisons.

Excellent.

I agree, differentiating between the students and the style is important. There are 5 styles. We know of at least 2 teachers, Dick Wei and Ku Feng plus the 6 students. What style did Dick Wei learn when he was a student? What about Ku Feng? Were they both hybrids also, or did they specialize in one style and learn enough of the other styles to be able to teach? If we go by members of the Poison Clan then there are at least 8 Venoms and probably more.

I like to think of the group of 6 "new" actors as Chang Cheh's replacement for Fu Sheng and Chi Kuan Chun, who were in turn replacements for David Chiang, Ti Lung and Chen Kuan Tai. So just to make it easy, I refer to the group of them as the Venoms. Not so important to me how many are in a specific film. A lot of what makes a Venoms film is the interior sets, the music cues, the supporting actors and the scripts. Some music cues were used a lot in Venoms films, but not that much in other Shaws, which give them a similar atmosphere.

Made this graphic around the same time, again, just to help me sort things out:

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by panku
bad math skills

[panku]

3 hours ago, ShawAngela said:

Thank you so much for this, @panku ! You definitely are a " man of the lists " !!

When it comes to enjoying art, film and music, I usually detest lists, especially ones that try to compile the 100 greatest 'whatever'. But I find for research, lists can help. Since everyone is going to have a different opinion anyway, if they are presented with facts it can help them form a more educated opinion.

[ShawAngela]

1 hour ago, panku said:

2 hours ago, thekfc said:

Officially it would be 5 poisons : Centipede, Snake, Scorpion, Lizard & Toad and 1 hybrid : student. 

Although WP was not in many of the group movies he is a poison/venom (he is the Snake). Without the Snake then there is only 4 main/core poisons and not 5.

There are only 3 complete core venom members movies: 5DV, IS & KVTGA

Then there are core venom members "associated" movies with 3-5 core members making an appearance:  Flag of Iron, Cripple Avengers, The Daredevils, etc,. 

Then there are core venom members "assisting" movies: Brave Archer series, Chinatown Kid, Shaolin Temple, Naval Commandos, etc,.

There is 1 "assisting" movie with ALL members present: TToK. 

Then there are Venom "supporting" members: Wang Li, WLW, CSH, CK, etc,.

Opinion may vary, but if you want to call it a complete Venoms then it would be the 5 poisons and the Hybrid - the presence of ALL core member of the original movie: The 5 Poisons.

Excellent.

I agree, differentiating between the students and the style is important. There are 5 styles. We know of at least 2 teachers, Dick Wei and Ku Feng plus the 6 students. What style did Dick Wei learn when he was a student? What about Ku Feng? Were they both hybrids also, or did they specialize in one style and learn enough of the other styles to be able to teach? If we go by members of the Poison Clan then there are at least 7 Venoms and probably more.

I like to think of the group of 6 "new" actors as Chang Cheh's replacement for Fu Sheng and Chi Kuan Chun, who were in turn replacements for David Chiang, Ti Lung and Chen Kuan Tai. So just to make it easy, I refer to the group of them as the Venoms. Not so important to me how many are in a specific film. A lot of what makes a Venoms film is the interior sets, the music cues, the supporting actors and the scripts. Some music cues were used a lot in Venoms films, but not that much in other Shaws, which give them a similar atmosphere.

Made this graphic around the same time, again, just to help me sort things out:

 

I urgently have to revisit Five Venoms ! I didn't even remember that Ku Feng was in it !!

[thekfc]

8 minutes ago, ShawAngela said:

I urgently have to revisit Five Venoms ! I didn't even remember that Ku Feng was in it !!

Maybe you forgot about him, his character/role was central to what was transpiring in the movie.

[ShawAngela]

1 minute ago, thekfc said:

Maybe you forgot about him his character/role was central to the movie.

What a shame for me, then !! I really have to watch it !!

I don't know for the other members, but it often happens that I watch a movie sometimes 5 or 6 times, and I always discover something new or that I had forgotten at each viewing !!

Edited April 29, 2020 by ShawAngela

[AlexanderFu]

17 hours ago, ShawAngela said:

What a shame for me, then !! I really have to watch it !!

I don't know for the other members, but it often happens that I watch a movie sometimes 5 or 6 times, and I always discover something new or that I had forgotten at each viewing !!

It's about a minute of screen time, essential but not long, so if it's been a while, you might remember the part but not that Ku Feng played it.

Lot of names, lots of movies and it was a long time ago.  

[WaverBoy]

On 4/29/2020 at 8:54 AM, TibetanWhiteCrane said:

By that rationale you should include guys like Yeung Hung, Chui Tai Ping, Chu Ko and many others..... referred to back in the day as the "baby venoms". The Venom boys ar the five main guys to me and that is that.

Except Chiang Sheng will always be my fave of the Venoms lot so I’m making him the Sixth Venom

Edited May 1, 2020 by WaverBoy

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

He IS one of the five main guys.... Wai Pak is not as far as I'm concerned.

[WaverBoy]

21 hours ago, TibetanWhiteCrane said:

He IS one of the five main guys.... Wai Pak is not as far as I'm concerned.

Ah man, I’m so glad you’re with me on that, hellz YEAH

[LuFengLover]

Everyone is going to have their own opinion on this topic.  I personally believe Wei Pai, although his stint is short, is a Venom because he played a titular role in the move that made the group stars.  Love him or hate him, Wei Pai cannot be removed from the history of the Venoms.
 

That being said, guys like Wang Li, Chin Siu Ho and Ricky Cheng Tien Chi are part of the larger group, the Venom Mob. I never liked calling them baby Venoms or 2nd tier Venoms as there is nothing babyish or 2nd tier about them as you can see in such films as Legend of the Fox, FEN and TTOK. They were capable men supporting and learning from a wonderfully talented group of stars before them. Unfortunately, this group never really had their time to shine in this golden era and remain in the shadows of their mentors and friends. Some went on to have great careers and success later, but they never formally had the chance to solidify under Chang Cheh and establish a name and cult following of their own. 

I do believe that if this Golden Age had continued a little longer, this group of talented actors would have garnered the same cult following today and a name of their own. I would have loved to see the following they would have developed. 

[panku]

Shaolin Deadly Poisons

 

[thekfc]

Now here is an other question - under what title did you folks first saw this movie?

When I first saw it (1979 /1980, don't remember which year), it was under the title "The Five Venoms"  and throughout the trailer the characters were referred to as "The 5 Poisons" .

 

[ShawAngela]

20 hours ago, panku said:

Shaolin Deadly Poisons

What a superb poster ! I had never seen it !

[ShawAngela]

5 minutes ago, thekfc said:

Now here is an other question - under what title did you folks first saw this movie?

When I first saw it (1979 /1980, don't remember which year), it was under the title "The Five Venoms"  and throughout the trailer the characters were referred to as "The 5 Poisons" .

I first in 2007 or so, Wildside release with French subtitles, and it was called 5 venins mortels (Five deadly venoms), and I must confess that I wasn't very enthusiastic to buy it when I saw this title, but well, how inspired I was to still have bought it !! I would have been so angry against myself if I had missed such an excellent movie !!