Most talented Kung fu martial artist, other than Bruce Lee

[Yihetuan]

What about Alexander Lo-rei? I recall Toby Russell saying he was someone you wouldn't want to mess with in real life. He had a thuggish aura about him off the set and that he would've likely been dead or in prison if not for kung fu cinema. I don't know how valid all that is or if it's just hyperbole be he certainly looked the part. I sure wouldn't want to start any trouble with him!

Edited April 22, 2020 by Yihetuan
corrected spelling

[Jonny]

On 4/14/2020 at 11:10 AM, OpiumKungFuCracker said:

Fu Sheng comes to mind. 

Well said.. yes.. he’s one of my favorites too. 

[Jonny]

On 4/14/2020 at 12:10 PM, Josh Baker said:

My nomination is Sammo Hung probably.

Angela Mao also springs to mind immediately,

Casanova Wong and Hwang in Sik were excellent kickers

Whereas the timing and skill of the Venom Mob is almost as good that of the Peking Opera graduates for my money...

Yes.. very good kickers, Casanova & Hwang Sik.. also Kwan Yung moon .. his leg work was excellent & cant forget the one & only Hwang Jang Lee. 

[Jonny]

On 4/14/2020 at 12:35 PM, DrNgor said:

Talking about talented Martial Artists...

Yuen Biao
Sammo Hung
Donnie Yen
Jet Li
Lau Kar-Leung
Scott Adkins
Bruce Leung Siu-Lung
Legendary Superkicker Hwang Jang Lee
Yasuaki Kurata

Scott Adkins .. one of my favorites of today. 

[Jonny]

On 4/14/2020 at 10:37 PM, DrNgor said:

Yeah, I'd respectfully disagree with the above. While his 80s kickboxing does have a lot of that, there's no denying the man's skill. And he's indeed an awesome martial artist knowledgeable in a lot of styles: hung gar (as seen in Magnificent Butcher and Ip Man 2), wing chun (Warriors 2, Ip Man--he choreographed, Gambling Ghost), hapkido, mantis (Shaolin Traitorous), tai chi (Kung Fu Cult Master and the Tai Chi 0/Hero films he choreographed), monkey (Encounter of the Spooky Kind and Knockabout), etc.

Shaolin traitorous is one of my favorite movies.

[Jonny]

A lot of info here I didn’t know myself .. I thought I was knowledgeable regarding this topic.. clearly I still have a lot to learn.. some very good comments. 

[Graeme Of Death]

How exactly are we rating Kung Fu talent? Are we talking how well they perform in a film or in a real fight?

In terms of a real fight has anyone ever seen a real "kung fu" fight? 

I've never understood why Bruce Lee is regarded as some sort of fighting machine. Maybe some of the more knowledgeable can help me here, but what did Bruce actually compete in? What was his record and how good were his opponents? Was there much competition?

I've always assumed that in the 60, 70, 80s all you really had was boxing, possibly Kick boxing a bit later on and martial arts competitions for Karate, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, Taekwondo.

I think if most of the folk mentioned in this thread were to step in to the ring with a world class thai boxer they'd get annihilated.

I've only seen kung fu in films, so maybe to see it displayed in a proper fight is a lot different, but it's never looked the most practical or effective style of fighting to me.

[OpiumKungFuCracker]

44 minutes ago, Graeme Of Death said:

How exactly are we rating Kung Fu talent? Are we talking how well they perform in a film or in a real fight?

In terms of a real fight has anyone ever seen a real "kung fu" fight? 

I've never understood why Bruce Lee is regarded as some sort of fighting machine. Maybe some of the more knowledgeable can help me here, but what did Bruce actually compete in? What was his record and how good were his opponents? Was there much competition?

I've always assumed that in the 60, 70, 80s all you really had was boxing, possibly Kick boxing a bit later on and martial arts competitions for Karate, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, Taekwondo.

I think if most of the folk mentioned in this thread were to step in to the ring with a world class thai boxer they'd get annihilated.

I've only seen kung fu in films, so maybe to see it displayed in a proper fight is a lot different, but it's never looked the most practical or effective style of fighting to me.

Onscreen. MMA is in another thread. 

[Josh Baker]

8 hours ago, Jonny said:

Yes.. very good kickers, Casanova & Hwang Sik.. also Kwan Yung moon .. his leg work was excellent & cant forget the one & only Hwang Jang Lee. 

Oh jeez how could I forget Hwang Jang Lee? He is literally the OG superkicker! His aerial kicks in the Seasonal Jackie Chan films are unbelievable! 

[DrNgor]

3 hours ago, Graeme Of Death said:

How exactly are we rating Kung Fu talent? Are we talking how well they perform in a film or in a real fight?

In terms of a real fight has anyone ever seen a real "kung fu" fight? 

I've never understood why Bruce Lee is regarded as some sort of fighting machine. Maybe some of the more knowledgeable can help me here, but what did Bruce actually compete in? What was his record and how good were his opponents? Was there much competition?

I've always assumed that in the 60, 70, 80s all you really had was boxing, possibly Kick boxing a bit later on and martial arts competitions for Karate, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, Taekwondo.

I think if most of the folk mentioned in this thread were to step in to the ring with a world class thai boxer they'd get annihilated.

I've only seen kung fu in films, so maybe to see it displayed in a proper fight is a lot different, but it's never looked the most practical or effective style of fighting to me.

As I stated in an earlier post, you could break down screen fighters into three groups:

1. Athletic people who are good at doing everything the choreographer asks them to do (i.e. Leung Kar-Yan);

2. People who've studied and mastered a style(s), its techniques, forms/sets/kata, weapons, etc. (most kung fu actors);

3. People who've studed and mastered a style(s), and have legitimate tournament or street fighting cred (i.e. Michael Chan, Carter Wong, etc.)

So yeah, we're rating based on groups #2 and 3, while avoiding the whole, "My pick from group #3 could beat up your pick from group #2," which is pointless and irrelevant.

[Graeme Of Death]

2 hours ago, DrNgor said:

As I stated in an earlier post, you could break down screen fighters into three groups:

1. Athletic people who are good at doing everything the choreographer asks them to do (i.e. Leung Kar-Yan);

2. People who've studied and mastered a style(s), its techniques, forms/sets/kata, weapons, etc. (most kung fu actors);

3. People who've studed and mastered a style(s), and have legitimate tournament or street fighting cred (i.e. Michael Chan, Carter Wong, etc.)

So yeah, we're rating based on groups #2 and 3, while avoiding the whole, "My pick from group #3 could beat up your pick from group #2," which is pointless and irrelevant.

Well I'm sticking to my original pick of Jackie. Yeah you might get someone who can do flashier kicks etc but in terms of choreography and generally how he looks on screen coupled with how innovative he was then most don't even come close. 

[JackieRome]

5 hours ago, Graeme Of Death said:

Well I'm sticking to my original pick of Jackie. Yeah you might get someone who can do flashier kicks etc but in terms of choreography and generally how he looks on screen coupled with how innovative he was then most don't even come close. 

I've never met anything remotely comparable since the Jackie Chan movies. That's fortunate but also a limitation, because you can never be satisfied with the fighting when it comes to speed and contact. Many kids today would be impressed by the new Indonesian wave (which are also beautiful in other ways) but Jackie's films remain fascinating for many reasons.

Speaking instead of the controversial public figures of our favorite actors, what do you think?  Jet li is said to be a star created by the Beijing government since Shaolin Temple's time to create the new Bruce lee. Jackie Chan disowned the people of Hong Kong in favor of the Beijing government during those days of protest when his people came down to demonstrate. 

About others behind the scenes: Gordon Liu said that his brother Lau kar Leung complained to Jet Li because he used to use a lot of wirework but, above all, he used to get stuntmen often and Leung told him: but why can't you do these things that you are capable of, instead of having others do them?" he clearly couldn't speak badly because at the time working with Jet opened the doors of the Chinese market to him.

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by JackieRome

[Jonny]

4 hours ago, JackieRome said:

I've never met anything remotely comparable since the Jackie Chan movies. That's fortunate but also a limitation, because you can never be satisfied with the fighting when it comes to speed and contact. Many kids today would be impressed by the new Indonesian wave (which are also beautiful in other ways) but Jackie's films remain fascinating for many reasons.

Speaking instead of the controversial public figures of our favorite actors, what do you think?  Jet li is said to be a star created by the Beijing government since Shaolin Temple's time to create the new Bruce lee. Jackie Chan disowned the people of Hong Kong in favor of the Beijing government during those days of protest when his people came down to demonstrate. 

About others behind the scenes: Gordon Liu said that his brother Lau kar Leung complained to Jet Li because he used to use a lot of wirework but, above all, he used to get stuntmen often and Leung told him: but why can't you do these things that you are capable of, instead of having others do them?" he clearly couldn't speak badly because at the time working with Jet opened the doors of the Chinese market to him.

 

Jet Li used stunt doubles? That surprises me a lot. One thing I don’t like in some Kung fu movies is how they use stunt doubles. May as well just be watching some Hollywood movie. 

[DrNgor]

1 hour ago, Jonny said:

Jet Li used stunt doubles? That surprises me a lot. One thing I don’t like in some Kung fu movies is how they use stunt doubles. May as well just be watching some Hollywood movie. 

Different than Jackie, Sammo, Yuen and others whose Peking Opera training and pre-stardom roles prepared them for crazy stuntwork and acrobatics, Jet Li's training was in wushu and he went straight to leading roles. He simply wasn't trained for the madness of HK action at its finest. His stunt doubles have included Xiong Xin Xin and Ku Huen-Chiu, both of whom are now renowned fight choreographers.

But give the man his due: Jet broke his leg while filming ONCE UPON A TIME IN CHINA and suffered another injury during BORN TO DEFENCE. He also fell from a forty-foot platform while filming FEARLESS. So he's taken his lumps.

Edited April 24, 2020 by DrNgor

[One Armed Boxer]

On 4/24/2020 at 10:46 AM, Jonny said:

One thing I don’t like in some Kung fu movies is how they use stunt doubles. May as well just be watching some Hollywood movie. 

Most of the kung-fu movies from the golden era came out of Hong Kong, which had an action movie industry built on stuntmen.  I doubt there was any star that wasn't doubled.

The reason for the doubling is the differentiator.  In Hollywood doubling is usually due to the actor not being able to perform the stunt/movement that the stunt double is going to do.

In Hong Kong, with no union it wasn't unusual for filming to go on all day and all night, so even if let's say a Jackie or a Sammo could do the move, if they've been filming for 20 hours straight and are then expected to perform a dangerous piece of choreography or stuntwork, it was safer for the stuntdouble to step in.  Guys like Mars (the alley way bicycle lift in 'Project A')  and Chin Kar-Lok (the helicopter kick against Benny Urquidez in 'Dragons Forever') built their careers on this kind of stuff.

[sym8]

On 4/24/2020 at 10:57 PM, One Armed Boxer said:

In Hong Kong, with no union it wasn't unusual for filming to go on all day and all night, so even if let's say a Jackie or a Sammo could do the move, if they've been filming for 20 hours straight and are then expected to perform a dangerous piece of choreography or stuntwork, it was safer for the stuntdouble to step in.  Guys like Mars (the alley way bicycle lift in 'Project A')  and Chin Kar-Lok (the helicopter kick against Benny Urquidez in 'Dragons Forever') built their careers on this kind of stuff.

This makes sense,i remember watching the finale of Miracles and Mars Is doubling for Jackie on a simple fall back and thinking Well Jackie could do that why didn’t he,and then I read he was to busy filming other parts of the choreography and had to let someone else do it.Always amazed me that he choose Mars for some doubling though because he so much more bulky than Jackie and I always thought he was easy to spot

[HyperDrive]

Didn't Chan Sing practice Karate and work as a corrections officer before entering the film industry?

[ShawAngela]

1 hour ago, HyperDrive said:

Didn't Chan Sing practice Karate and work as a corrections officer before entering the film industry?

It seems that I read that on an article posted by someone on this forum, yes.

[Graeme Of Death]

17 hours ago, Jonny said:

Jet Li used stunt doubles? That surprises me a lot. One thing I don’t like in some Kung fu movies is how they use stunt doubles. May as well just be watching some Hollywood movie. 

Jet could barely tie his shoe laces without the use of a stunt double. I didn't think anyone would be surprised at that? But he comes from a totally different background from the likes of Jackie, Sammo etc or the folk that worked their way up through Shaw Brothers so you can't really expect him to be doing the same things Yuen Biao, Yuen Wah etc are capable of. If not from the Peking opera background most would have started as stuntment.

Maybe being a bit harsh on wee Jet, but in is 90s films he's really no doing much. Really shows what he can do in the Shaolin Temple films.

[Graeme Of Death]

4 hours ago, sym8 said:

This makes sense,i remember watching the finale of Miracles and Mars Is doubling for Jackie on a simple fall back and thinking Well Jackie could do that why didn’t he,and then I read he was to busy filming other parts of the choreography and had to let someone else do it.Always amazed me that he choose Mars for some doubling though because he so much more bulky than Jackie and I always thought he was easy to spot

I'm sure if you watch most of Jackie's 80s films and onward that any time he has to land on his back it's not him doing. I assume just because of injuries.

I think with Jackie it was more a case of if someone could do the stunt better than him, then that would be the take they would use.

[DiP]

5 hours ago, Graeme Of Death said:

Maybe being a bit harsh on wee Jet, but in is 90s films he's really no doing much.

 

Hold on, Jet wasn't doing much in the 90s? Let's see here...

Once Upon a Time in China, as we all know, reinvented and brought back the 70s kung fu genre that had faded in the mid 80s through fresh storytelling and use of wirework. Most here despise wirework and I can understand that. But nevertheless, it was a big change for the genre at the time. Fong Sai Yuk: The Legend showed Jet's versatility in mixing seriousness and humor in his fight scenes. Before that, he was considered a serious martial arts actor. Fist of Legend saw Jet break out of his wushu flashiness and brought a different flavor to his performance showing that he could adapt to any action director and style of fight choreography. The Bodyguard from Beijing was Jet's first contemporary movie in 5 years (or 3 years if you count the initial release date/year of The Master) and elevated his wushu mixing it up with guns and modern HK style choreography which was only perfected in subsequent moderns he did after. Lethal Weapon 4 showcased Jet's acting range by playing the main villain. This was also his ticket to Hollywood and international recognition. Nuff said...

I think we all take Jackie and Sammo for granted. Sure, they have done so much for Hong Kong cinema and that their body of work will never be outdone or replicated. But it has to be said. Every actor and director doesn't end up in the spotlight too long and their creativity doesn't hold up after a while. The 80s was pretty much Jackie and Sammo but by the 90s their styles had already been outdated through redundancy and repetitiveness. Jackie was the exception because his stunts still worked wowing audiences by mixing different locations and sets for his action scenes to be executed so his style lasted longer (up until Drunken Master 2). But on the whole, their styles was stuck after the 80s and saw little evolution afterward.

[Graeme Of Death]

7 hours ago, DiP said:

 

Hold on, Jet wasn't doing much in the 90s? Let's see here...

Once Upon a Time in China, as we all know, reinvented and brought back the 70s kung fu genre that had faded in the mid 80s through fresh storytelling and use of wirework. Most here despise wirework and I can understand that. But nevertheless, it was a big change for the genre at the time. Fong Sai Yuk: The Legend showed Jet's versatility in mixing seriousness and humor in his fight scenes. Before that, he was considered a serious martial arts actor. Fist of Legend saw Jet break out of his wushu flashiness and brought a different flavor to his performance showing that he could adapt to any action director and style of fight choreography. The Bodyguard from Beijing was Jet's first contemporary movie in 5 years (or 3 years if you count the initial release date/year of The Master) and elevated his wushu mixing it up with guns and modern HK style choreography which was only perfected in subsequent moderns he did after. Lethal Weapon 4 showcased Jet's acting range by playing the main villain. This was also his ticket to Hollywood and international recognition. Nuff said...

I think we all take Jackie and Sammo for granted. Sure, they have done so much for Hong Kong cinema and that their body of work will never be outdone or replicated. But it has to be said. Every actor and director doesn't end up in the spotlight too long and their creativity doesn't hold up after a while. The 80s was pretty much Jackie and Sammo but by the 90s their styles had already been outdated through redundancy and repetitiveness. Jackie was the exception because his stunts still worked wowing audiences by mixing different locations and sets for his action scenes to be executed so his style lasted longer (up until Drunken Master 2). But on the whole, their styles was stuck after the 80s and saw little evolution afterward.

Sorry I just meant that in the films he was making I don't think he was showing any ground breaking talent on screen. I enjoy all the films you mentioned but he's mostly flying about on wires and being doubled in them. Fist of Legend is probably the best example of where he's displaying his more grounded kung fu talent.  

Totally agree that JC and Sammo's style was pretty much done by the early 90s. Sammo sort of jumped on the wire work, blue back lit, under cranked to fuck trend and as you said Jackie just found even more reasons to go to different countries.

[DiP]

Jet showcased his talents in many groundbreaking ways, especially for a practitioner of taolu wushu which emphasizes on fluidity, gracefulness, and coded movements that had to be done precisely. Jet was one of few that could adjust that movement code onscreen and separate himself from the average taolu wushu practitioner. Speed, flashiness, and intensity off the charts. Most of his period kung fu movies were indeed more or less wirework-oriented but Jet displayed enough of grounded fight scenes with top replay values.

Edited August 3, 2020 by DiP

[DrNgor]

2 hours ago, DiP said:

Jet was one of few that could adjust that movement code onscreen and separate himself from the average taolu wushu practitioner. Speed, flashiness, and intensity off the charts. Most of his period kung fu movies were indeed more or less wirework-oriented but Jet displayed enough of grounded fight scenes to enjoy them.

Amen, brother!

[Josh Baker]

On 4/24/2020 at 10:57 PM, One Armed Boxer said:

Most of the kung-fu movies from the golden era came out of Hong Kong, which had an action movie industry built on stuntmen.  I doubt there was any star that wasn't doubled.

The reason for the doubling is the differentiator.  In Hollywood doubling is usually due to the actor not being able to perform the stunt/movement that the stunt double is going to do.

In Hong Kong, with no union it wasn't unusual for filming to go on all day and all night, so even if let's say a Jackie or a Sammo could do the move, if they've been filming for 20 hours straight and are then expected to perform a dangerous piece of choreography or stuntwork, it was safer for the stuntdouble to step in.  Guys like Mars (the alley way bicycle lift in 'Project A')  and Chin Kar-Lok (the helicopter kick against Benny Urquidez in 'Dragons Forever') built their careers on this kind of stuff.

I think what also needs to be considered is that it wouldn't make sense for big stars like Jackie and Sammo to be injured on a seemingly inconsequential stunt such as falling over after being kicked or punched, or when the camera isn't facing them for a stunt like that, when they have entire films to complete and bigger stunts (like falling off a clock tower) to focus on.  Sometimes they are even directing the picture. So it makes sense for a stuntman to take care of these little stunts so the main actor is able to save himself for bigger things and moreover just complete the film and fulfill contracts.