Most talented Kung fu martial artist, other than Bruce Lee

[Master with OK Fingers]

So many greats listed I won't repeat, but I do think that Loren Avedon deserves some love. Looks great on screen with his TKD kicking technique.

[Omni Dragon]

The Three Dragons are (Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung and Yuen Biao) probably my favourite martial art-actors.

[Graeme Of Death]

I'd have to go for Jackie, he has the most charisma, could choreograph and perform the classic styles of kung fu whilst taking the genre in different directions at a time when everyone was just repeating themselves.

[Pup From The North]

On 4/14/2020 at 7:49 PM, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

I went with Tan Tao Liang as he was literally being goaded into challenging Bruce Lee, and people felt he had a shot at it, at the time. He was a full contact champion at Tae Kwon do, which was much rougher back then. If you are talking about on screen, Jackie was really good, as well as Yuen Biao. Sammo looks good, but a lot has to do with quick cuts and camera angles. If you see him without all that and the undercranking, he isn't as impressive. He's a big dude, so that would help fighting those small guys. 

People mentioned Fu Sheng and Phillip Ko Fei said he was brilliant. But he also said that about Jackie and Jet, but that they were not on the level of a Bruce Lee, as he could fight and film.

No one had a shot with Bruce, unless we are talking a shot from a gun.

Tan was very respectful of Bruce. which shows you he had the knowledge to understand Bruce was indeed great, while demonstrating his good character.

As for Sammo, you have certainly not give him anything near his due respect! It's no use arguing matters of personal preference, but to suggest Sammo's performance was aided to any extent by camera trickery, editing, is simply not true. I could easily fetch many examples of exceptional single movements and combinations performed in one shot. Sammo is truly one of the most dynamic, exciting performers in Gung Fu cinema history! His speed, and co-ordination along with his emphasise on power, all together, leave me in awe. When you combine his martial knowledge and performance, with his acrobatic skill, creativity and acting, you have one of the greatest ever.

On 4/15/2020 at 12:36 AM, CT KID said:

I would include Benny Urquidez in there too, he looked awesome in his two fights with Jackie and he was one of the greatest full contact fighters of all time. Bruce wouldn't have stood a chance with the Jet in his prime, even though he didn't have the charisma of Lee.

HAHA!

Spoken by someone who clearly does not perceive the truth of Bruce Lee. Let me argue for Bruce's side with the help of someone who does though.

Benny Urquidez has said that Bruce "set the standard", and that Bruce would be the ultimate test of his skill, and more. But to top it off, this simply says it all:

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Pup From The North

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

54 minutes ago, Pup From The North said:

No one had a shot with Bruce, unless we are talking a shot from a gun.

Tan was very respectful of Bruce. which shows you he had the knowledge to understand Bruce was indeed great, while demonstrating his good character.

As for Sammo, you have certainly not give him anything near his due respect! It's no use arguing matters of personal preference, but to suggest Sammo's performance was aided to any extent by camera trickery, editing, is simply not true. I could easily fetch many examples of exceptional single movements and combinations performed in one shot. Sammo is truly one of the most dynamic, exciting performers in Gung Fu cinema history! His speed, and co-ordination along with his emphasise on power, all together, leave me in awe. When you combine his martial knowledge and performance, with his acrobatic skill, creativity and acting, you have one of the greatest ever.

HAHA!

Spoken by someone who clearly does not perceive the truth of Bruce Lee. Let me argue for Bruce's side with the help of someone who does though.

Benny Urquidez has said that Bruce "set the standard", and that Bruce would be the ultimate test of his skill, and more. But to top it off, this simply says it all:

 

Urquidez also said he could take Bruce. And Sammo, Jackie and Bruce all used undercranking.

[venom10463]

Chen Kuan Tai was a real life practitioner of Monkey Kung fu and was a kung fu champion.

Edited April 19, 2020 by venom10463

[ShawAngela]

4 hours ago, venom10463 said:

Chen Kuan Tai was a real life practitioner of Monkey Kung fu and was a kung fu champion.

Yes, that's what I discovered years ago in a French book talking about Kung Fu Cinema, and I was very surprised when I read yesterday in an previous post above that he was a kickboxing champion, I had never heard of it.

[Josh Baker]

I also think Yukari Oshima is SUPREMELY underrated and wish she starred in more big movies. Her power and precision is unbelievable.

[DragonClaws]

7 hours ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

Urquidez also said he could take Bruce. And Sammo, Jackie and Bruce all used undercranking.

 

Benny Urquidez for me is the Roberto Duran of Martial Art's, the man had success fighting at so many different weight clasess.

Edited April 19, 2020 by DragonClaws

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

3 hours ago, DragonClaws said:

 

Benny Urquidez for me is the Roberto Duran of Martial Art's, the man had success fighting at so many different weight clasess.

There's no real comparison between Lee and him. Benny laid it on the line. Period. Also, Danny Inosantos was asked about Lee's chances with a Muai Thai fighter that coached with for JKD whose name escapes me and Inosantos was basically quoted as saying "This guy was a professional fighter". People really have a tough time getting around movies and reality. If you look at JKD, they just have not produced a stable of fighters. A great couple of books to read are A Fighter's Heart and A Fighter's Mind. The author traveled the world seeking out various masters. When it all came down to it, wrestling actually was the best base for a fighter, even more than BJJ, Muai Thai, etc. It makes a lot of sense. You can wrestle. A lot. You can't box and kickbox full blast, a lot. And BJJ actually has some flaws as well. Anyway, love kung fu movies, but let's get real. They are idealizations and fantasies to be enjoyed.

[thekfc]

2 hours ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

People really have a tough time getting around movies and reality.

2 hours ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

Anyway, love kung fu movies, but let's get real. They are idealizations and fantasies to be enjoyed.

[CT KID]

6 hours ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

There's no real comparison between Lee and him. Benny laid it on the line. Period. Also, Danny Inosantos was asked about Lee's chances with a Muai Thai fighter that coached with for JKD whose name escapes me and Inosantos was basically quoted as saying "This guy was a professional fighter". People really have a tough time getting around movies and reality. If you look at JKD, they just have not produced a stable of fighters. A great couple of books to read are A Fighter's Heart and A Fighter's Mind. The author traveled the world seeking out various masters. When it all came down to it, wrestling actually was the best base for a fighter, even more than BJJ, Muai Thai, etc. It makes a lot of sense. You can wrestle. A lot. You can't box and kickbox full blast, a lot. And BJJ actually has some flaws as well. Anyway, love kung fu movies, but let's get real. They are idealizations and fantasies to be enjoyed.

Thank you! I'm as big a Bruce Lee fan as anybody but sometimes people let hero worship of idols cloud their judgment and become delusional....

[DrNgor]

It feels as if there are multiple arguments/discussions going on here: 1) which actors outside of Bruce Lee are genuinely talented martial artists (i.e. the trained in the styles, they know the forms/sets/kata, etc), and 2) which are the real deal when it comes to real (i.e. tournament or street) fighting? 

I get the feeling that @Jonny's original post was for the former. In that case, it's more of a subjective thing in which any name is game outside of some of the people who admittedly aren't trained martial artists--Norman Tsui Siu-Keung, Leung Kar-Yan, Moon Lee, etc.

Of course, when you get to the professional fighters, the list of possibilities narrows a bit. You have people like Benny Urquidez, Michael Chan, Chen Kuan Tai, Dorian Tan Tao-Liang, Carter Wong, Bruce Leung Siu-Lung (if his anecdotes are to be believed), and some others.

I think anyone should be able to say that they like so-and-so without someone else stepping in to rain on the parade and compare them to someone who has tournament experience.

Edited April 19, 2020 by DrNgor

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

52 minutes ago, DrNgor said:

It feels as if there are multiple arguments/discussions going on here: 1) which actors outside of Bruce Lee are genuinely talented martial artists (i.e. the trained in the styles, they know the forms/sets/kata, etc), and 2) which are the real deal when it comes to real (i.e. tournament or street) fighting? 

I get the feeling that @Jonny's original post was for the former. In that case, it's more of a subjective thing in which any name is game outside of some of the people who admittedly aren't trained martial artists--Norman Tsui Siu-Keung, Leung Kar-Yan, Moon Lee, etc.

Of course, when you get to the professional fighters, the list of possibilities narrows a bit. You have people like Benny Urquidez, Michael Chan, Chen Kuan Tai, Dorian Tan Tao-Liang, Carter Wong, Bruce Leung Siu-Lung (if his anecdotes are to be believed), and some others.

I think anyone should be able to say that they like so-and-so without someone else stepping in to rain on the parade and compare them to someone who has tournament experience.

According to Toby Russell, Bruce Leung loves to spar. Also, we are forgetting Wang Lung Wei. Supposedly Wei wanted to fight Bruce Lee. I think people have the idea that these martial artists just quaked in fear of Bruce. You just don't see that with real athletes. People lined up to fight Ali and other champions, were they really going to be scared of an actor/coach? You have to remember there was almost no real sparring in Chinese kung fu schools back then, which is why Judo, Karate and later Tae Kwon Do became popular in HK. Wei and Tan have been involved in brawls (Tan was arrested) at different times. According to Toby Wei was fighting on the street in HK even within 20 years ago. I asked him what it looked like, his answer was  he was "rough'.

 

[CT KID]

According to Tan Tao Liang's wikipedia page he was arrested for beating up 5 members of a restaurant staff, bizarre. Guess he really got some poor service! 

[Omni Dragon]

9 hours ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

I think people have the idea that these martial artists just quaked in fear of Bruce. You just don't see that with real athletes. People lined up to fight Ali and other champions, were they really going to be scared of an actor/coach? You have to remember there was almost no real sparring in Chinese kung fu schools back then, which is why Judo, Karate and later Tae Kwon Do became popular in HK.

It does seem like some people have turn Bruce Lee into a modern day folk hero. They seem to fill the lack of empirical/well documented evidence of his ability as a real fighter with myth, legend and to a certain extent faith.

They often say things like he didn't do tournament fighting because he did 'real' fights with 'no rules'. To me however they seem to over look the fact that details of these fights are sketchy with few eye witnesses, I think there anecdotal at best. I do sympathise with there point about tournament fighting being constricted by rules, however it's generally better documented than what we do seem to know about Lee's fights and therefore would likely have been a more reliable measure.

[Tex Killer]

8 hours ago, CT KID said:

According to Tan Tao Liang's wikipedia page he was arrested for beating up 5 members of a restaurant staff, bizarre. Guess he really got some poor service! 

Or had classic kung fu movies in his mind and thought getting away without paying bill....

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

6 hours ago, Silver and Gold Dragon said:

It does seem like some people have turn Bruce Lee into a modern day folk hero. They seem to fill the lack of empirical/well documented evidence of his ability as a real fighter with myth, legend and to a certain extent faith.

They often say things like he didn't do tournament fighting because he did 'real' fights with 'no rules'. To me however they seem to over look the fact that details of these fights are sketchy with few eye witnesses, I think there anecdotal at best. I do sympathise with there point about tournament fighting being constricted by rules, however it's generally better documented than what we do seem to know about Lee's fights and therefore would likely have been a more reliable measure.

Let's get real. Most of the stories sound like scuffles. And many were discussed or written about many years after the fact. It seems like there are more and more of these stories, which sounds like BS right off the top. If you really are deadly, you are going to maul somebody. And if it is in front of witnesses there can be arrests and lawsuits. Also, go watch some videos of his number one students, in their 40's. Inosantos is good at twirling sticks and slapping hands, but no one really looks very impressive. 

 

[fabhui]

9 minutes ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

Also, go watch some videos of his number one students, in their 40's. Inosantos is good at twirling sticks and slapping hands, but no one really looks very impressive. 

 

The big problem is that a lot of Bruce's students who were actually good fighters kept well and truly out of the limelight. People like Dan, Ted etc definitely weren't up there when it came to fighting. 

Most of the best fighters were at the Oakland school. Another student who was a serious fighter was Jesse Glover. In his later years he came across as very unassuming but that man was an absolute monster.

I'm not going on stories I've read in books or whatever. I've been lucky enough to train with several of Bruce's students but there were only a couple who really impressed me and truly understood what Bruce was doing and where he was going.

[Pup From The North]

On 4/19/2020 at 6:14 AM, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

Urquidez also said he could take Bruce. And Sammo, Jackie and Bruce all used undercranking.

Didn't Benny just say "He was the best, leave it at that" how dare you disobey the jet!

He did make some disrespectful remarks about Bruce on at least one occasion, I remember reading them. Can't say I ever read him say the words you just attributed to him though. But in Benny's own words, he just made it clear that he admired him from the first time he seen him, and now, at this age, with more knowledge and experience than ever, he says he is the best.

I assume by "undercranking" you mean speeding up? Well, as for Jackie and Sammo, if you look at everything they have ever done, any instance where they were sped up is so rare, there is no point in even bringing it up. Certainly not when you are assessing their talents. Both Sammo and Jackie have made it clear they value demonstrating real talent on film. It's why they have risked their lives for films doing real stunts. They wouldn't fake things speeding up the film.

As for Bruce, there is not one instance of his film being sped up. I've seen some people have an opinion that one scene or another was, but that's nonsense. Their disbelief has overtaken them. To speed up, basically fake, a scene is completely against Bruce's ideology. Real martial artist, real talent displayed on screen. And what I'm sure you, and most people are not aware of, is Bruce was actually always trying to go slower on film. And not just because of the technical limitations of the cameras in capturing his movement full speed, but because he felt that while demonstrating his great speed would look dynamic on one level, it would take away the beauty of the form and the audience would not see the full movement. If he wanted to speed anything up, he would of actually just moved faster! So Bruce trying to con you by speeding up scenes? Nonsense claim, as I've just explained. He has no reason to, and no intent. And certainly not needed when you are of the fastest human beings on the planet.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Pup From The North

[Daxtreme]

I know Moon Lee has no real training but I think she looks great and very convincing on screen. Second only to Yukari Ôshima for women of that period IMO (girls with guns era). That's one of the perks of martial arts movies, what matters is the end result!

But let's face it, they are, indeed, fantasies. In real life even martial artists should be afraid of someone with a knife and nothing to lose, whether they are martial artists or not. Or even worse, a gun. Anything can happen, and so fast...

[sym8]

11 hours ago, Pup From The North said:

assume by "undercranking" you mean speeding up? Well, as for Jackie and Sammo, if you look at everything they have ever done, any instance where they were sped up is so rare

Rare?Jackie,The Young Master,Police story 2(playground fight)Jackie vs Benny(wheels on meals)Project A 2(tea house),Sammo,The odd couple,Prodigal son I could go on.Dont get me wrong I love all these films and these people are my idols but to say they don’t undercrank or it’s rare is wrong.Undercranking is part of the genre and it was used extensively.

Edited April 21, 2020 by sym8

[TheKungFuRobber]

Silver fox

[DiP]

Quote

I assume by "undercranking" you mean speeding up? Well, as for Jackie and Sammo, if you look at everything they have ever done, any instance where they were sped up is so rare, there is no point in even bringing it up. Certainly not when you are assessing their talents. Both Sammo and Jackie have made it clear they value demonstrating real talent on film. It's why they have risked their lives for films doing real stunts. They wouldn't fake things speeding up the film.

 

You couldn't be more wrong there. Late 70s, the 80s, the 90s... It was the epitome of undercranking in Hong Kong action cinema. It was barely noticeable in some fight scenes and obvious in others. But on the whole, it was done more or less.

[Killer Meteor]

Undercranking is indeed the norm for many of the greats...and that's no problem, unless it's of Benny Hill levels.

 

And I think Hwang Jange-lee is the best martial artists in HK Cinema, shame he ended up going downhill in terms of film quality.