We need a new CTHD to revive this dead industry

[Iron_Leopard]

Not a sequel or remake to CTHD but a movie with that much impact that can resurrect and bring in new fans to martial arts films.

Yes theres always great standout genre defining films being released like "Police Story" in the 80s, "Once Upon a Time in China" in the 90s, and "Ip Man" in the 00s. 

But theres really only ever been two times when martial arts movies truly captivated the entire world. 

Bruce Lee in the 70s and "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" in 2000. 

It's time we had an event on this level. 

But who will step up to the challenge?

[DrNgor]

There might've been the possibility that the new Mulan film might've accomplished that had it not been pushed back.

Also, given the current atmosphere for mainstream movie-watching, perhaps Shang Chi, in addition to feeding the current superhero trend, will create new fans of pure martial arts.

[DiP]

To resurrect a much dried-out sub-genre, you need ANGLES of presenting things in refreshing ways. To make an impact with the sub-genre as a whole you need to CREATE elements that sticks out and lasts forever. These terms, more or less, is something of a task that most filmmakers nowadays won't tackle. Reasons: Pure drive and passion to keep pushing the limits being a rarity, and money controlling your decisions.

[SMK]

What an interesting post. CTHD is the film that drew me to the genre to begin with. I was not a die-hard martial arts movie fan before CTHD. The movie was getting so much buzz at the time, that I knew I wanted to check it out. I remember getting a bootleg VCD version of the film and after viewing it, I was hooked. Soon after I was on the hunt for any and all "Wire-Fu" films I could find. This led me to Iron Monkey, The Legend, Kung Fu Cult Master, Wing Chun, New Legend of Shaolin, and so many more. I eventually ended up watching "5 Fingers of Death" which then began my new passion for 'old school kung fu movies'. Flash forward, and here we are. 

 

[ShawAngela]

There was such a " talk about " about this movie when it was released in the 90's that I bought it, mostly because I had heard about Cheng Pei Pei playing in it, and watched it, and frankly, I was really disappointed.

Seeing people walking and fighting on very thin sleeves on the trees was for me too much irrealistic and the movie was too slow in my opinion at that time, maybe because that I was already addicted to the Shaws, Golden Harvest and old school movies.

Maybe I should revisit it to see if I have the same opinion now, but I'm reluctant to watch it again, to be honest...

[panku]

On 4/8/2020 at 12:39 AM, SMK said:

CTHD is the film that drew me to the genre to begin with.
 

I've never seen it!

[SMK]

On 4/8/2020 at 1:53 AM, ShawAngela said:

There was such a " talk about " about this movie when it was released in the 90's that I bought it, mostly because I had heard about Cheng Pei Pei playing in it, and watched it, and frankly, I was really disappointed.

Seeing people walking and fighting on very thin sleeves on the trees was for me too much irrealistic and the movie was too slow in my opinion at that time, maybe because that I was already addicted to the Shaws, Golden Harvest and old school movies.

Maybe I should revisit it to see if I have the same opinion now, but I'm reluctant to watch it again, to be honest...

I can still appreciate the "fantasy" element to these movies, but once I watched '5 Fingers of Death', oh my, my passion of the old school kung fu movie genre grew exponentially overnight! 

[venom10463]

On 4/8/2020 at 1:53 AM, ShawAngela said:

There was such a " talk about " about this movie when it was released in the 90's that I bought it, mostly because I had heard about Cheng Pei Pei playing in it, and watched it, and frankly, I was really disappointed.

Seeing people walking and fighting on very thin sleeves on the trees was for me too much irrealistic and the movie was too slow in my opinion at that time, maybe because that I was already addicted to the Shaws, Golden Harvest and old school movies.

Maybe I should revisit it to see if I have the same opinion now, but I'm reluctant to watch it again, to be honest...

I agree with you @ShawAngela After hearing people raving how good it was, I decided to check it out for myself. I was already heavily into martial arts films, and when I finally watched it. It didn't live up to the hype. It wasn't a bad film, just wasn't on par with some of the films I was watching. I do appreciate what it did for the martial arts genre. I doubt we would have had a big revitalization of the kung fu genre if it wasn't for CTHD.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

Here's the deal. Several things are going on these days. Fancy arts, such as Kung fu and Tae Kwon Do are held in low regard after the UFC. Sure, there's a few guys, Stephen Thompson, for example, that can represent a sort of generic basher style of karate/TKD/Kung fu, as well as Jon Jones and a few others. So most young people in the west aren't buying into the kung fu hype.

Let me go back a little. There was a time when non Asians sought out the "real kung fu" that was too deadly for the ring, and only a select few were allowed to learn it. Those guys like me were usually disappointed to find that beyond being really good at doing one step drills or doing some very fast response to a predetermined attack, you simply could not find anyone that was making that stuff work in competition. The UFC sort of destroyed that whole Shaolin beats all mythology. Young people just aren't buying it.

Here's the other thing. We have movies like Atomic Blonde, Salt, Taken, The Transporter, and shows like Spartacus, so why do you need another mythical Chinese movie to satisfy your cravings?  Donnie and Jackie have a following, but it isn't because they can do long fist or hung gar. Some genre's best work will be in the past, like westerns (another fantasy based on tall tales, with no reality) and that's how it goes. This isn't meant to poke fun at Chinese culture. Shit, most white dudes with goatees think their ancestors were this like Blondie in the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. Most likely they were poor dirt farmers whose lives didn't turn around for generations and owe everything to FDR and post WWII prosperity. Everyone has a fantasy. It's just the fantasy of One Armed Swordsman just doesn't sell well overseas any more. You'll notice Samurai films don't seem to do well either. Times change.

 

 

 

 

[laagi]

Some valid points right there. But one also seems to forget that the Chinese market as well doesn't care about this genre at all. Especially the younger generation, heck people can't even differentiate Kung Fu from Taekwondo. The latter getting much wider recognition. Simply because you get to put on a nice dress and can earn your belt. Also you won't have an instructor yell at you and God forbid beat your ass for not following him.

To me a genre and its key players must have the skill and will to reinvent itself. Adjust to new circumstances, much like Martial Arts. And if you're stuck, heck it might be time to throw those old habits out of the window and start anew. I mean if you look at Donnie Yen for instance. I think you can clearly see how he did the exact same thing and is still trying to do to this day. On the other hand you can also see countless Kung Fu inspired movies emerging from Chinese streaming sites. Maybe not the best future but a future nonetheless.

I would also argue that especially the Genre similar to CTHD (Wuxia?) whatever you wanna call it... Is still huge on Chinese TV (or VOD) with all their series (e.g. Eternal Love) which mix the exact same thing. Would I mind watching something similar on the big screen again? Certainly not. But like a friend of mine once said when asked about a local Kung Fu actor "Does he make movies?" "Yes... Movies no one is watching." And you can say whatever you want but if there's no audience why even bother.

Edited April 12, 2020 by laagi

[DragonClaws]

 

Ip Man(2008) was the last Asian movie, that reached out to a bigger wider audience for me. Even friends of mine who were not strictly into Martial Arts films, seeked this out. Some people I knew even took up Wing Chun. At the time of its release I was working in a factory. Nobody was into Asian cinema, but there were a lot film fan's. Just my experience, Ong Bak(2003) had a simiar effect when it hit the U.K. I was in higher education at the time, and it was a movie people were talking about a lot.

Edited April 12, 2020 by DragonClaws

[laagi]

9 hours ago, DragonClaws said:

 

Ip Man(2008) was the last Asian movie, that reached out to a bigger wider audience for me. Even friends of mine who were not strictly into Martial Arts films, seeked this out. Some people I knew even took up Wing Chun. At the time of its release I was working in a factory. Nobody was into Asian cinema, but there were a lot film fan's. Just my experience, Ong Bak(2003) had a simiar effect when it hit the U.K. I was in higher education at the time, and it was movie people were talking about a lot.

True I remember when Tony Jaa was huge back in the day a wave of excitment went thru the Martial Arts (cinema) community. I was in China at the time and even in there people were just in awe. Then when he doubled down with Tom Yum Goong aka The Warrior the thing really looked like it's gonna take off. Unfortunately much like his career I felt that it all came to a rather sudden stop.

To me a similar craze for the MA cinema came back with The Raid (2011). I mean the action was so visceral and brutal... Something I've never seen before!

Edited April 12, 2020 by laagi

[Cognoscente]

What we need is a movie that redefines a genre. ETD redefined the spy genre, CTHD (to Western eyes) redefined the romance genre, The Matrix redefined the Sci-Fi genre...so what's left is the Kung Fu musical.

[Iron_Leopard]

18 minutes ago, Cognoscente said:

What we need is a movie that redefines a genre. ETD redefined the spy genre, CTHD (to Western eyes) redefined the romance genre, The Matrix redefined the Sci-Fi genre...so what's left is the Kung Fu musical.

I'm surprised Kung Fu Hustle wasn't another big moment for MA films that captivated the world.

[Cognoscente]

Blame the distributor, but I also think the timing was to blame. Had it been made and released earlier, it would have been big instead of a blip. By 2005, people were getting a bit worn out with the Kung Fu trend.

[Koravec]

On 4/11/2020 at 10:35 PM, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

The UFC sort of destroyed that whole Shaolin beats all mythology. Young people just aren't buying it.

Really think theres some truth to this. May also go along with the dying of religion in a sense. Spirituality may have a healthy following still, but it cant be so easily disproven or disagreed with so easily as a particular spiritual form of martial art or common western adapted religion clashing with modern logic, science, or belief systems. May even be part of the rise in popularity of anime, takes away the reality of live action and adds the romanticization of japanese culture, ignoring the more corrupt china. Tends more to escapism and nerd culture than signing up for karate and taekwondo like people would have in past decades.

Its not all bad obviously after seeing how the roles they used Jackie Chan for in hollywood movies and american actors starting in eastern themed movies like tom cruise in the last samurai, reeves in ronin, or recently nicholas cage in jui jitsui (title following an actual modern MA trend? probably the wrong way to go about that lol). What do we need a joe rogan starring reality series on -insert any company video platform here- . Hell Ive even been saying movies are an outdated form of entertainment for a while now (not that the field still shouldnt be enjoyed and cherished obviously)

Even recent blockbusters like mulan or the power rangers reboot follow this era of nostalgia were in as opposed to a time of ninja everything or epic eastern dramas being made commonly anymore 

The last installment into the ip man franchise was pure junk, if ip man 3 with tyson couldnt regain much interest there probably isnt much in the way anyway. And jaa and iko have seemed to have gone back to being side characters and stunt doubles or just names to slap onto already bloated crapshoot flicks.

I think the biggest savings grace we have for the MA genre currently is the MCU in series and films. In particular the eastern themed ones like iron fist, dr strange, batman, maybe daredevil, etc. And like the way Mulan, Mortal Kombat and Power Rangers are piggybacking off of nostalgia, Iron Fist and Shang Chai are piggybacking off of the superhero craze. Something like Cobra Kai is sort of riding the tv series drama wave or karate kid nostalgia more than a modern interest in karate. 

Something that gets me is the ignorance people have for the chinese MA genre (of any decade) with the rise of liberal ‘wokeness’ and wanting to arbitrarily signal the celebration of different ethnic cultures. I suppose our niche here is too far gone from modern interests of typical millennials and gen z-ers (Id take this as a compliment lol). 

All in all, I geuss its just been done, time and time again, in varying levels of quality. What could the new version of MA revival be that isnt already in place (examples mentioned). Maybe we should be happy with the MA superhero content were getting? As its the first time these characters have really been explored in this way, even if I sit this era of entertainment out myself.

[Cognoscente]

Cobra Kai is to TV what Steel Panther is to music.

[laagi]

On 5/8/2021 at 7:39 PM, Iron_Leopard said:

I'm surprised Kung Fu Hustle wasn't another big moment for MA films that captivated the world.

To me Kung Fu Hustle was more of a revival to the typical Jackie Chan style of Kung Fu. Mixing the action with comedy. Similar what Chow did with Shaolin Soccer. I'm not sure how successful it was at the box office but I certainly enjoyed it. And while it did feel awfully familiar it also had this freshness. Maybe it's worth taking another shot at this style of Kung Fu movie?

Also I feel like there's been a lot of Martial Arts inspried movies and TV series of late. Yeah most of them usually tied to some well known property like Mortal Kombat, Snake Eyes, Shang-Chi, Cobra Kai, Kung Fu, Warrior. If you're looking at it I don't think I've ever seen this much MA content in a long time. So the interest seems certainly there or at least in the West. 

From the little I gather, also the East still seems to be invested in action vehicles Donnie Yen presents on the big screen. As for the classic stuff, I'm not sure. Can't remember the last time I watched a new traditional (in the classic sense) Kung Fu movie. 

I think the general problem is the lack of (leading) talent. I mean if you look at Hong Kong or China. Who has the potential to actually lead anything in the Kung Fu cinema world? I can't think of one new name. Usually it's always the old guard. Or maybe they just refuse to pass the torch. The entire thing might be far more complex than just the unwillingness of the new generation to watch these kind of movies.

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by laagi

[Yihetuan]

On 4/11/2020 at 7:35 PM, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

Here's the deal. Several things are going on these days. Fancy arts, such as Kung fu and Tae Kwon Do are held in low regard after the UFC. Sure, there's a few guys, Stephen Thompson, for example, that can represent a sort of generic basher style of karate/TKD/Kung fu, as well as Jon Jones and a few others. So most young people in the west aren't buying into the kung fu hype.

Let me go back a little. There was a time when non Asians sought out the "real kung fu" that was too deadly for the ring, and only a select few were allowed to learn it. Those guys like me were usually disappointed to find that beyond being really good at doing one step drills or doing some very fast response to a predetermined attack, you simply could not find anyone that was making that stuff work in competition. The UFC sort of destroyed that whole Shaolin beats all mythology. Young people just aren't buying it.

Here's the other thing. We have movies like Atomic Blonde, Salt, Taken, The Transporter, and shows like Spartacus, so why do you need another mythical Chinese movie to satisfy your cravings?  Donnie and Jackie have a following, but it isn't because they can do long fist or hung gar. Some genre's best work will be in the past, like westerns (another fantasy based on tall tales, with no reality) and that's how it goes. This isn't meant to poke fun at Chinese culture. Shit, most white dudes with goatees think their ancestors were this like Blondie in the Good, the Bad and the Ugly. Most likely they were poor dirt farmers whose lives didn't turn around for generations and owe everything to FDR and post WWII prosperity. Everyone has a fantasy. It's just the fantasy of One Armed Swordsman just doesn't sell well overseas any more. You'll notice Samurai films don't seem to do well either. Times change.

 

 

 

 

Lyoto Machida is the best example of a TMA based combat sports athlete that had success at the world level. But yeah, they are few and far between and the outlier in terms of MMA belt holders and champions. To achieve success in MMA, one must have a wrestling background, BJJ and some semblance at striking whether boxing or MT. I think wrestling based MMA have a lot of success due to weight cutting being ingrained into their training regiment. It's hard to physically beat an opponent who will outweigh you by 30lbs come fight night. That's why I always felt the weigh-ins should be held the day of the fight to keep some of the extreme weight bullies at bay.

It's funny you mention about the samurai and white guys who hold power fantasies of their ancestors. There are always discussions about who would win between Vikings vs Samurai, simulated fantasy battles, and even video games where they pit East vs West. I have to laugh when I read some of the comments that say the Vikings would win easy because Nordics are 7' foot tall warriors and the Samurai were 5'2" munchkins but the Vikings were just as short in reality. Anthropological evidence points to Vikings being roughly 5'6" or so. The rapid growth of modern day Scandinavians only occurred in the 20th century due to nutrition and better diet. The Samurai possessed far superior armor, swords and most importantly were better horsemen and archers. Unlike popular belief, Vikings were mostly farmers and not warriors like they are portrayed now.