John Wick Chapter 4 (2023) - Keanu Reeves, Lawrence Fishburne, Donnie Yen, Hiroyuki Sanada, Rina Sawayama

[KUNG FU BOB]

1 hour ago, Agent U said:

Any new material that comes out for JW4 features new footage of Yen to the point it's looking like he'll be in almost as much as Keanu Reeves and not even 10 minutes will go by without him taking on 20-30 guys so everyone can see how cool he is.

Which Asian blockbuster ever did the same for an actor from the West?

 

 

Cynthia Rothrock in YES, MADAM (and RIGHTING WRONGS) and Ron Van Clief in THE BLACK DRAGON immediately came to mind. But I certainly do see your point.

 

My son ordered our tickets for the US premiere yesterday. The 23rd? I can't remember.

I've seen them all in the theater and enjoyed every one. Out of all of them the only thing that I ever thought was terrible was that

Spoiler

poorly rendered fall from the rooftop and the unnatural looking bounce down.

I laughed. Still one poor 10 second shot/idea out of three movies is not too bad. I didn't have a problem with part 3's length like some people either. I thoroughly dig these films and have been excited to check out part 4.

[DiP]

3 hours ago, Agent U said:

The bigger roles in JW4 clearly went to Asian characters and an actor of African descent. The bigger Caucasian part doesn't even seem to feature any action.

Any new material that comes out for JW4 features new footage of Yen to the point it's looking like he'll be in almost as much as Keanu Reeves and not even 10 minutes will go by without him taking on 20-30 guys so everyone can see how cool he is.

Which Asian blockbuster ever did the same for an actor from the West?

Cynthia Rothrock in pretty much all of her Hong Kong movies where she played the protagonist. Also Roy Horan in Snake in the Eagle's Shadow.

In general acting, there has also been occassions. Christian Bale was in Zhang Zimou's The Flower of War. David Morse was in Double Vision, and Shanghai. Diana Lane and Donald Sutherland in the Japanese movie The Setting Sun. And Sutherland was in Feng Xiaogang's Big Shot's Funeral.

[Agent U]

Thank you both for the information, most of which I was unware of and I'm always interested to learn.

My point still stands though. 

Asian characters likely get much more and better representation in Western media than Westerners do in Asian films. 

And in this specific case:

• blowing a couple of non-offensive clichés out of proportion is a disservice to fighting actual racism and discrimination;
• have a director apparently put you in the spotlight in the movie in a way he never did for anyone else in the series other than the lead actor, and then basically suggest out of thin air that the guy is a racist or at the very least narrow-minded strikes me as ungrateful.

 

[Agent U]

So much spoiler-heavy stuff has been coming out for this movie.

From a few publicity clips:

To a B-roll showing a lot of the action:

And on the same YT channel, there's also interviews with cast and crew, dishing out lots of details.

The social embargo is 6 March but at this rate everything will be out there before then.

[KUNG FU BOB]

5 hours ago, Agent U said:

Thank you both for the information, most of which I was unware of and I'm always interested to learn.

My point still stands though. 

Asian characters likely get much more and better representation in Western media than Westerners do in Asian films. 

And in this specific case:

• blowing a couple of non-offensive clichés out of proportion is a disservice to fighting actual racism and discrimination;
• have a director apparently put you in the spotlight in the movie in a way he never did for anyone else in the series other than the lead actor, and then basically suggest out of thin air that the guy is a racist or at the very least narrow-minded strikes me as ungrateful.

 

My pleasure. That's one of the main reasons to come here- to share and learn. I could fill volumes with what I've learned from other members here.

I totally get your point, and your comment "Once again what primarily comes across is that Donnie Yen just can't waste an opportunity to be annoying." did make me laugh. As much as I'm a fan of Donnie Yen, I have always detected a huge ego emanating from him and heard lots of stories about him being a pain in the ass. Happy to say that when I met him in person at the New York Asian Film Festival in 2012 he was extremely nice and (at least seemingly- he is an actor) quite modest. Aside from my own direct experience I also observed him interacting with many fans (including my son) and he could not have been more gracious and friendly. I think, like many of us, he has mellowed as he's matured. In my opinion (for what it's worth) it's understandable that with JOHN WICK 4 being such a highly, globally publicized event-film that he'd use it as a platform to say the things he did. Though you (and many others here) seem well aware of the stereotyping of Asian people in non-Asian cinema, there are plenty who are completely oblivious and who will hopefully benefit from hearing this message. Personally I didn't feel that Yen was too critical of the filmmakers, he just pointed out what he thought could be better (albeit, in his own, somewhat abrasive, inimitable way ). Yes, I can see why you might think that was ungrateful and obnoxious on his part, but Yen's gonna Yen.

 

5 hours ago, Agent U said:

So much spoiler-heavy stuff has been coming out for this movie.

From a few publicity clips:

To a B-roll showing a lot of the action:

And on the same YT channel, there's also interviews with cast and crew, dishing out lots of details.

The social embargo is 6 March but at this rate everything will be out there before then.

Indeed!

I didn't read or watch anything in your post.

Yes, things are so different now. Long gone are the days where the public happily kept secrets so that their fellow men and women could be surprised at the cinema. But for those not old enough to remember,before social media, when certain films with secrets or major plot twists like PLANET OF THE APES, THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, THE CRYING GAME, FIGHT CLUB, or THE SIXTH SENSE were released, we were all kind of in it together and happy to keep mum so others could enjoy them fully (except that blabber-mouth idiot Rosie O'Donnell ). Now days you have people tweeting and posting spoilers the second they happen! I guess it somehow empowers them or makes them feel self important to be "The First" to say what happened, but I think it's awful. And sadly, the studios cater to the low-intellect individuals that crave this, spoon-feeding them too much information with spoiler-filled trailers and publicity. It's not easy to avoid all that stuff if you want to go in unaware and be surprised, especially with the 5 minute long trailers in theaters. They often even show the endings! These "ads" are basically cliff-note versions of the entire freaking film! I wind up looking at the floor and kind of sticking my fingers in my ears. I know I must look nuts to fellow movie-goers, but I don't care. 

I was just discussing this with my brother @Karlos, waxing poetic about the best trailers that made you want to see the film but didn't ruin them. Here are two of my favorites...

ALIEN (1979): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjLamj-b0I8

IT'S ALIVE (1974): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7SOqkb_CM0

[laagi]

@KUNG FU BOB I'll keep quiet I promise... No spoilers from me

 

[Yihetuan]

10 hours ago, DiP said:

Cynthia Rothrock in pretty much all of her Hong Kong movies where she played the protagonist. Also Roy Horan in Snake in the Eagle's Shadow.

In general acting, there has also been occassions. Christian Bale was in Zhang Zimou's The Flower of War. David Morse was in Double Vision, and Shanghai. Diana Lane and Donald Sutherland in the Japanese movie The Setting Sun. And Sutherland was in Feng Xiaogang's Big Shot's Funeral.

Don't forget Zhang Yimou's The Great Wall which was a predominately Chinese financed film with Wanda Pictures. Zhang, despite his vociferous denials, even created an entire mythos around Matt Damon as a "white saviour" trope to placate Western audiences.

Of course, I expected the typical "whataboutism" rebuttal to my post and that's to be expected but doesn't take away Hollywood's long history of denigrating roles for Asian & Asian American actors.

10 hours ago, Agent U said:

Thank you both for the information, most of which I was unware of and I'm always interested to learn.

My point still stands though. 

Asian characters likely get much more and better representation in Western media than Westerners do in Asian films. 

And in this specific case:

• blowing a couple of non-offensive clichés out of proportion is a disservice to fighting actual racism and discrimination;
• have a director apparently put you in the spotlight in the movie in a way he never did for anyone else in the series other than the lead actor, and then basically suggest out of thin air that the guy is a racist or at the very least narrow-minded strikes me as ungrateful.

 

This post is hilarious in its condescension and patronizing tone. Yeah, Donnie should just be grateful because well ya know, Asians should know their place, keep quiet and just accept whatever table scrap roles they get from Hollywood. Also, I get to determine what offends Asians & what's a non-offensive cliche and of course, throwing in the trite "is a disservice to fighting actual racism and discrimination" tops it off.

[KUNG FU BOB]

51 minutes ago, Yihetuan said:

This post is hilarious in its condescension and patronizing tone. Yeah, Donnie should just be grateful because well ya know, Asians should know their place, keep quiet and just accept whatever table scrap roles they get from Hollywood. Also, I get to determine what offends Asians & what's a non-offensive cliche and of course, throwing in the trite "is a disservice to fighting actual racism and discrimination" tops it off.

Hey brother, it's just a different opinion (which I also didn't completely agree with as you can read above). And you being condescending about it while criticizing the poster for condescension... well...  See what I'm saying? I am pleased to hear your view on the subject, but just minus the personal criticism. Please, lets all play nice, even if we disagree. This place is meant to be fun and interactive and there's been a lot of people poking each other lately. I'm going through tough stuff in real-life (as many of us are) and I don't want to worry about yet another squabble here.

[Yihetuan]

@KUNG FU BOB, no worries as I'm dropping the subject because like you said no one needs anymore drama here.

[KUNG FU BOB]

16 hours ago, laagi said:

@KUNG FU BOB I'll keep quiet I promise... No spoilers from me

 

As they say "It's funny because it's true". Except... when it actually happens to you, you know? One of my best buddies had this exact same thing happen to him while waiting in line on opening night to see STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS with some dolt loudly announcing a huge spoiler as he left his showing.* Thoughtless people truly suck!

*And before anyone says anything critical about the film sucking anyway- that's NOT the point, and you know it.

 

13 hours ago, Yihetuan said:

@KUNG FU BOB, no worries as I'm dropping the subject because like you said no one needs anymore drama here.

Thanks for the understanding reply.

I'm not trying to shut down further discussion, I only want to stop the button-pushing, bear-poking, personal attack nonsense that some seem to gravitate to (this comment is a general statement and not aimed at @Yihetuan). For those people, I'm sure there's a Let's Be Aggressive or We Like To Trade Insults forum out there (perhaps any forum dealing with politics?) that would suit them much better than this one.

Anyway... back on subject...

I couldn't sleep last night so I decided to start my JOHN WICK re-watch lead up to part 4. I had a great time with it again- this is maybe the 4th, 5th, or 6th time I've seen it. I was not expecting Keanu to look so substantially younger than he does now, in just 9 years. He gets more to do acting-wise in this first film, and is quite good, conveying a lot with his eyes and few words. The story is simple but laid over a carefully constructed world, and the attention to dialogue and casting perfectly captures a unique tone that is nice blend of darkness and thrills. The action holds up and is consistently riveting. My few gripes that I've had since I first saw it are minor in the big scheme of things, but still needle me when I watch it. They are both spoilers though, so skip the next bit if you haven't seen the film.

Spoiler

First, having four highly trained assassins stand in a circle and shoot someone in the middle- Ms. Perkins- may look nice visually, but is ridiculous. Bullets, especially from such close range, often pass through a person, so all four shooters are basically aiming at each other, which they would never do. The second thing happens during the climactic fight between John and Viggo where the later is using a two-handed grip to try and thrust a knife into John. Though John has a hold of both of his wrists, to get the upper hand (WTF?) John pulls the knife into his own stomach instead of using the many disarming and deflecting techniques which clearly would've made more sense. After seeing what he's capable of throughout the entire movie this makes no sense. It's akin to him suddenly holding his gun backwards! Someone decided it would be dramatic- he's willing to stab himself to win!- and it was. But it was also really stupid. It's a rare hiccup in otherwise exciting and (though over the top) more realistic fight/combat choreography, which makes it stand out that much more.

But enough nit-picking. One of the scenes that I think is exceptionally cool is when they show John practicing his driving skills. This is terrific because it shows that he's not just suddenly accomplished in extreme vehicle maneuvering, and that it's another element that he's honed in his wheelhouse. And of course it's made clear that it's also an important outlet for him too. This is a great action film and I'm happy to be revisiting the series.

[Agent U]

@KUNG FU BOB Thanks for the information and for trying to understand where I'm coming from. It's nice to read you had a great experience when meeting Donnie Yen in person. It's unfortunate this is not the best moment for you irl, hopefully things will get better for you soon.

@Yihetuan Honestly, I wasn't even replying to you, I don't think I had even noticed your comment. I was commenting on the article, which had been posted a couple of replies before. I didn't mean to offend you or anyone, and you may disagree with me entirely, which is perfectly fair. However, I feel you're reading in my words a lot of stuff I didn't say or mean, and that I cannot accept.

I didn't negate or diminish the struggles of Asian and Asian-American actors in Hollywood, and it would never be my place to do so.

My entire comment simply addressed Donnie Yen's stance in that article. Donnie Yen doesn't speak for all Asians, and I found his approach to be exaggerated, incoherent and unfair.

Exaggerated because as far as I know there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the name and the outfit he mentions, and there is a very big difference between portraying a certain people negatively and representing a culture, even if with some clichés. Putting both in the same basket is dangerous.

Incoherent, because he also ought to give some thought to how other races and nationalities are portrayed in his own films.

Unfair, because at the end of the day his concerns were addressed and his ideas accepted, so I don't see the point of bringing that up after all this time and presenting it in such a negative light.

As for the rest, if there are people here who are Asian or of Asian descent I'd be genuinely interested to hear from them (probably not here, not to sidetrack the topic, but in a different topic or even by direct message) whether and why they share Donnie Yen's views that a Chinese character being named Shang and wearing mandarin collars is detrimental to them and changing those to a Western name and a Western look is for the better.

Especially because interestingly JW4 features Japanese characters in traditional Japanese clothes and with common Japanese names (Akira, at least), and nobody seems to be taking issue with that, calling those characters stereotypical or feeling they'll be any less cool and interesting as a result. For me, it's quite the opposite: as a fan of Japanese culture and aesthetics I feel the Japanese characters stand out visually and look incredible.

On 3/3/2023 at 11:07 AM, KUNG FU BOB said:

Indeed!

I didn't read or watch anything in your post.

Yes, things are so different now. Long gone are the days where the public happily kept secrets so that their fellow men and women could be surprised at the cinema. But for those not old enough to remember,before social media, when certain films with secrets or major plot twists like PLANET OF THE APES, THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, THE CRYING GAME, FIGHT CLUB, or THE SIXTH SENSE were released, we were all kind of in it together and happy to keep mum so others could enjoy them fully (except that blabber-mouth idiot Rosie O'Donnell ). Now days you have people tweeting and posting spoilers the second they happen! I guess it somehow empowers them or makes them feel self important to be "The First" to say what happened, but I think it's awful. And sadly, the studios cater to the low-intellect individuals that crave this, spoon-feeding them too much information with spoiler-filled trailers and publicity. It's not easy to avoid all that stuff if you want to go in unaware and be surprised, especially with the 5 minute long trailers in theaters. They often even show the endings! These "ads" are basically cliff-note versions of the entire freaking film! I wind up looking at the floor and kind of sticking my fingers in my ears. I know I must look nuts to fellow movie-goers, but I don't care. 

I was just discussing this with my brother @Karlos, waxing poetic about the best trailers that made you want to see the film but didn't ruin them. Here are two of my favorites...

ALIEN (1979): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjLamj-b0I8

IT'S ALIVE (1974): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7SOqkb_CM0

You're right. It's very different now.

I recall even in the 00's, if not the 10's, seeing a lot of promotional stuff for films, and still not feel at all spoiled.

JW4 has been quite spoiler-heavy throughout their promotional campaign. But I believe it was Black Adam where recently the lead spoiled a post-credits scene to get people hyped (I don't follow DC or Marvel stuff, haven't in a very long while, but I think it was something along these lines).

To go to a movie completely spoiler-free, it seems you need to avoid anything to do with it these days.

Anyway, I have yet to watch the previous JW movies. I watched the first and recall liking it, but that's it. A channel here is having a JW marathon tomorrow, so I reckon that will be the time to catch up.

[The Ghost Face Killah]

Big John Wick fan and I think aside from the films folks in this forum know a great deal about, it's one of the all time great action franchises after those landmark martial arts and Kung Fu eras. I personally think Parabellum is the best one of the series. Curious to see what they'll drop next.

[Karlos]

 

 

 

[Karlos]

https://www.cbr.com/john-wick-4-donnie-yen-oscar-hong-kong-backlash/

 

 

[Karlos]

First lot of early reviews are in - POSSIBLE MINOR SPOILERS:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/john-wick-4-reactions-call-it-glorious-epic-and-badass/ar-AA18iggu

In a nutshell, it's looking like it is the best of the franchise so far.

 

[KUNG FU BOB]

1 minute ago, Karlos said:

First lot of early reviews are in - POSSIBLE MINOR SPOILERS;

https://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/news/john-wick-4-reactions-call-it-glorious-epic-and-badass/ar-AA18iggu

 

 

To avoid spoilers I won't be reading that/clicking on the link. But seeing the words "glorious", "epic", and "badass" bode well!

[DiP]

On 3/5/2023 at 3:39 PM, Karlos said:

https://www.cbr.com/john-wick-4-donnie-yen-oscar-hong-kong-backlash/

Donnie becoming like Jackie now huh? CCP is really testing Hong Kong actors and directors' integrity when it comes to their political stand. Looks like most want to keep their careers going so playing the rules is the only choice.

[Darth Kermit]

On 3/3/2023 at 8:07 AM, KUNG FU BOB said:

I wind up looking at the floor and kind of sticking my fingers in my ears. I know I must look nuts to fellow movie-goers, but I don't care. 

I do the same thing most of the time. If it's a film that's already on my radar and I'm looking forward to it/plan on seeing it in cinemas, I do the same thing, but if it's the next Marvel blockbuster #34 shit, I don't care if I hear it or see it, I just look at my phone (yeah sometimes I'm the guy using my phone during trailers, but never talking in the theater mind you!). If it's a movie I'm hyped for, I usually turn my phone all the way off, power button holding and all before any of the trailers. But yeah, I hate the current trend of spoiling everything. People have no patience nowadays that those stupid movie summary channels with AI voices are so popular (I kinda think CinemaSins is partially responsible for this state of affairs), and people complain about a movie length before even seeing it! "Over 2 hours? Bruh that's so long, skipping that one."

Edited March 7, 2023 by TheMuffinMan656

[DiP]

People praising Donnie's performance are all over the place.

[Karlos]

I've seen some spoilers dripping out now, so I'm refraining from posting any more links to reviews/early reactions.

Suffice it to say, it's looking like it's all we hoped for.

Donnie stealing the show doesn't surprise me.

March 24th can't come wick enough!! 😀

[Drunken Monk]

It's so sad that people lucky enough to see this film early are content with spoiling it for everyone else. Thankfully, I've avoided spoilers so far but I see a lot of people complaining about them being all over social media.

I'm happy with the buzz though. It seems that people really loved this film and that the run time doesn't drag it down at all. Nice to see Donnie getting some shine in Hollywood once again, too..

[AlbertV]

On 2/15/2023 at 1:06 PM, ShaOW!linDude said:

Monty Python reference!!! Good one.

So Adkins is in a fat suit. Hmmm...I'm gonna be miffed if he doesn't throwdown, dadgummit.

He will get to throwdown...Killa is the leader of the German High Table and there is some BTS fight footage in this video

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by AlbertV

[laagi]

Not that I'm one to talk BUT honestly what exactly are you guys afraid of getting spoiled about? I mean it's John Wick after all, just saying. The ONLY thing I can see worth being called "Spoiler" is the ending... That's it!

Hope you guys all get to enjoy it on the big screen. In reference to the above post, I'll say it now Scott Adkins was one of my favorite parts of the movie. And that's coming from someone who was concerned and disappointed at first.

It felt like such a homage of sorts to JC's style of comedy and action, you'll see what I mean.

[DiP]

1 hour ago, laagi said:

Not that I'm one to talk BUT honestly what exactly are you guys afraid of getting spoiled about? I mean it's John Wick after all, just saying. The ONLY thing I can see worth being called "Spoiler" is the ending... That's it!

Hope you guys all get to enjoy it on the big screen. In reference to the above post, I'll say it now Scott Adkins was one of my favorite parts of the movie. And that's coming from someone who was concerned and disappointed at first.

It felt like such a homage of sorts to JC's style of comedy and action, you'll see what I mean.

Alright, I'll shoot...

How was Donnie's role? Other than all the scene-stealing action moments, how significant and essential was his character in the story?

And last but not least... How many action scenes does he get in the movie?

Edited March 9, 2023 by DiP

[Drunken Monk]

1 hour ago, laagi said:

Not that I'm one to talk BUT honestly what exactly are you guys afraid of getting spoiled about? I mean it's John Wick after all, just saying. The ONLY thing I can see worth being called "Spoiler" is the ending... That's it!

I think there are a few things to spoil. Firstly, the ending. Secondly, I don’t want to know how Scott Adkins, Hiroyuki Sanada or Marko Zaror are disposed of.

I also don’t want to know the plot. I know it’s probably very simple and is essentially John Wick trying to get away from the High Table, but I don’t want to know how he ends up in the desert, for example. I don’t want to know Bill Skarsgard’s role in everything. 

Finally, I don’t want any cool moments spoiled. Moments that are going to make my jaw drop.

There’s probably other stuff too.