John Wick Chapter 4 (2023) - Keanu Reeves, Lawrence Fishburne, Donnie Yen, Hiroyuki Sanada, Rina Sawayama

[Agent U]

Ah, John Wick: Chapter 4. I think I liked it, but it's not something I feel like watching again any time soon.

It is good overall, but I also don't see how anyone can get to the end of the movie and claim it's a 10/10, because even though it is great in certain respects it is also awful in others.

I enjoyed it more than the previous film, even though I felt JW3 had more creative action and kills. But I still find JW and JW2 better movies as a whole.

On the positives, Rina Sawyama was great in her first movie. Her song at the end is also brilliant, and so is the rest of her discography. So, this is definitely a great takeaway. I'm not sure she can carry her own spin-off just yet, as the studio seems to intend, especially if we're talking about a theatrical release, but that's a different matter.

Hiroyuki Sanada has such an engaging screen presence. Out of personal preference,

Spoiler

I'd have liked for him and Yen to have reverse roles, even if that may require swapping nationalities as well.

It was nice seeing Scott Adkins get to act. I feel mixed about his character though.

Also, Marko Zaror was in it a lot more than I expected, considering how overlooked he's been by the studio (no character poster, billed at the end, technically outside of the main cast) and the audience. Example: the Walmart Edition comes with 12 JW4 character cards and Chidi is not one of them.

Spoiler

Zaror's Chidi is actually in pretty much the whole movie and may get almost as much screen time as Caine or Tracker.

The cinematography is something else. They really make the most of each location, each setting is unique and creates a different ambiance. It's just a beautiful film.

The soundtrack is also excellent. I'm particularly enthralled by Le Castle Vania's score to the Osaka and Berlin segments.

Some of the action is creative and innovative. Examples are the God's eye dragon-breath shotgun sequence, and the scene with the cars around Arc du Triomphe. I can only imagine how much work all of this was to design, coreograph, rehearse, etc.

The acting for the most part is good. Too bad the exception is actually the lead.

I really liked the ending.

Spoiler

It's probably the first time I felt for the character past the first movie. Keanu's acting is atrocious in JW4 (I honestly don't think there's even one line he delivered decently), but he managed to sell the final scene. Hope they don't cheapen it, and instead leave it at that.

On the negatives, all of the issues I've pointed before regarding the series as a whole and JW3 in particular are still very much here.

Narratively, it's still a mess. It flows better than JW3, since it doesn't feel as much as ping pong back and forth, but it still makes zero sense and there's very little plot here. The fact you could remove entire sections (the desert, Osaka, Berlin) and characters from the film (Akira, her father, Killa, Tracker) and nothing of relevance plotwise would be lost shows this is the opposite of a well-woven narrative.

More of a pet peeve but in previous movies, even travelling was an issue. Here the guy just pops in and out of locations. It made me think of that French children's book series Martine (Martine at the beach, Martine at school, Martine in the mountains, etc), but here it's John Wick in the desert, John Wick in Osaka, John Wick in Berlin... And at times there's not even a reason for him to be there.

Some of the action is tedious. Even elements that feel fresh at first drag on for way too long to the point you end up seeing the exact same thing just too many times. But the worst is whenever John comes across hordes of cannon-fodder; that takedown followed by headshot got old back in JW2, as did his wrist-lock, but these are still 90% of his moveset. He may train, he may give it his best and all he's got, and I respect him for that, but the harsh truth is Keanu Reeves is limited and just not up to par to the physicality that the character should have. I can't help wondering what a similar film with someone as physically skilled as say Scott Adkins, Marko Zaror or even Donnie Yen in the lead could accomplish.

We also get more of the 'indestructible John Wick', something we can't even dismiss as being in-universe, because the John Wick in JW or even JW2 would certainly not be unharmed from spinning kicks to the head or high falls.

The Marquis felt like an inferior version of JW2's main antagonist, Santino. Why would the High Table give all that power to this guy anyway? He displays absolutely nothing the entire film. 

Tracker is one of the worst characters ever on film. Pointless, senseless, and just a waste of space. If he's there to get his own spin-off, good luck with that, they'll sure need it.

And the whole 'good, bad, ugly' angle doesn't work either as a result, because that would require

Spoiler

at least one of Caine or Tracker to be unrelenting in his pursuit of John Wick, when in reality both are more often back-up.

Basically all the new characters are either in only one sequence getting <15 minutes of screen time, or are there for the duration of the film. There's nothing in between. And they've sure made some wrong choices on who to allocate to either.

Even after four movies, there's still not one single memorable 1v1 in this series.

Spoiler

Caine v John Wick looked more odd and silly than epic.

Spoiler

Caine v Shimazu lasted 2 minutes, and had rather basic coreo, resulting in another pointless senseless death.

Spoiler

Killa v John Wick is plagued by another issue that is pervasive across the series, or at least since JW2: John Wick survives 90% of his face-offs, not because he's better, not because he gets better or even adapts, or comes up with a clever strategy to overcome his foe, but because there's a distinct feeling that at a certain point the script dictates that his enemies let him. Someone mentioned Adkins' character was a 'lousy fighter', but in reality he's portrayed as one of the top hand-to-hand fighters in the JW universe, as he actually gives John Wick the nastiest ass-whooping he's received in the entire series and, were there even an iota of realism left in this, would have killed him at least 2-3 times. But then just like that he forgets his MA moves and starts waving his arms about like you'd expect a person of that size to fight. And ultimately he faceplants, as if someone with those kicks wouldn't have some landing skills. Maybe the original cut is better and had stuff that made the whole thing more consistent, since reportedly the club scene was the one that got cut the most from the original 3h45 run. But what we got seems to go back and forth between showing Killa is a top fighter despite being fat and ridiculing him for being fat. I'm not sure how flattered Sammo Hung should feel about this 'hommage' tbh.

Finally, though not fault of the film itself, the entire promotion was so blatantly spoiler-heavy that I felt I already knew most of it and had seen a very large chunk of it

Spoiler

(including most of the scenes for characters like Shimazu, Akira and Killa)

The only surprises were:

• the ending, the sole part they kept fully under wraps,
• as mentioned, how much Zaror was in, and
• especially how into himself the man already seems to be, that Donnie Yen didn't end up in space, seeing the insane amount of smoke he got blown up his @ss the entire movie
  Spoiler

  If someone else asks I'll deny it, but in reality, although I don't personally like Yen, I think he did well with his character, despite the unnecessary and ultimately pointless blind gimmicky, which is ofc no fault of his own, and being so artificially cool all the time, which he even acknowledges himself. With his character beating everyone and everything, including the title character, those that claim Yen had in his contract that he would not lose a fight on-screen might not be wrong though, even if I don't see how he'd have the power to pull sth like that in such a massive blockbuster.

Edited May 11, 2023 by Agent U

[laagi]

On 4/2/2023 at 1:13 AM, TheMuffinMan656 said:

Oh fucking hell, these guys are the absolute worst. The very title of Every Frame a Pause disgusts me.

Same goes for FNT and all the other access media critical groups on YouTube.

While they do raise some valid points I grew tired real quick of their schtick. The constant whining and complaining is like listening to a bunch of cry babies.

I don't need these self proclaimed crusaders to tell me that obviously something is wrong in our entertainment nowadays.

And people seem to forget that each and every member of these groups run a channel which is first and foremost a BUSINESS!

Constantly squatting out videos with the same boring titles "THIS IS WAY... IS A DISASTER" doesn't impress me anymore. I'm sorry!

And don't get me started on some of these guys trying to mix in their political agendas. Thanks I'll pass!

[J.J. Hayden]

3 hours ago, laagi said:

Same goes for FNT and all the other access media critical groups on YouTube.

Sorry, can't agree on any of it. It just sounds like the standard NPC description of their shows.

[Agent U]

The post-credit scene was originally longer:

https://collider.com/john-wick-chapter-4-original-end-credit-scene-explained-chad-stahelski/

Spoiler

And Caine did die.

Seeing how the director

Spoiler

doesn't seem to give much relevance to Caine being alive or dead but instead focuses it entirely on Akira, she once again looks like the most likely to get her own spin-off.

 

[DiP]

Found this interesting clip. What's your take on this one?

 

[Karlos]

 

 

 

[Karlos]

https://www.cbr.com/john-wick-4-vod-home-video-release-dates/

 

 

[thekfc]

3 hours ago, Karlos said:

https://www.cbr.com/john-wick-4-vod-home-video-release-dates/

 

 

I already pre-ordered the 4K Steelbook.

[Karlos]

https://www.cbr.com/john-wick-director-responds-fan-demands-fifth-movie/

 

 

[Agent U]

I hope they stay true to their choices and vision and just let it be, rather than caving to fan demand a.k.a money.

Of all the issues I had with JW4, the ending was not one of them. It can even somewhat fit the ridiculousness of it all, in the sense that

Spoiler

this guy should have been killed 27 times before, carried on through the whole ordeal on sheer will to see it through, and when he finally got what he sought, it all came back to him and he perished

They never really found the right tone and direction once they've decided to open up the world, and now after two (very long) movies with a lot of flash and very little substance, it's probably too late for that. Not to mention that would require undoing one of the few meaningful things that happened past JW2.

Despite generally good physical work across the series, in JW3 and JW4 Keanu Reeves also looked slow, stiff and definitely like he was struggling to keep up at times, so it can only get worse in that front.

Better end it on a high note.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Agent U

[Karlos]

The more I read from Stahelski the more I feel that this is it, there won't be a 5th film.

Personally, I loved the way JW4 ended and I admire Stahelski for, it looks to me, pushing back on demand to continue.

EDIT:

https://www.cbr.com/john-wick-5-will-keanu-reeves-return/

[Karlos]

https://www.cbr.com/john-wick-5-development-happening/

I clearly know nothing!

[DiP]

Korean action star Ma Dong-Seok recently revealed that the role of Caine (before it was changed to Caine with Donnie Yen onboard) was originally intended for him but had to declined due to scheduling conflicts.

https://tw.news.yahoo.com/馬東石坦言片約滿檔-擦身演出-捍衛任務4-扼腕讓給甄子丹-040140404.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLnNlLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAABoFvB5xLMuXDgzsmhfliS9DZKihFt-c3k1FonO0FfbxWdOEWjItFC3Y7isptSCOuwUabGnh-9oZAx1-RqZ0FGB1TNeSW2G9rB_8xHwZovi1Ga7dChtfn34nNXrlxYlFy3-ywiq2cmw_A6MEYfwOrPhWmg0dzvzVWL73qIvgTA5z

[Karlos]

 

 

[Super Ninja]

On 5/26/2023 at 1:39 PM, Karlos said:

https://www.cbr.com/john-wick-5-development-happening/

I clearly know nothing!

Hey, the franchise surpassed 1B$, you can't turn your back on such profit. I just hope Stahelski and Reeves still have some love left in them for the fifth. 

[laagi]

11 hours ago, Super Ninja said:

Hey, the franchise surpassed 1B$, you can't turn your back on such profit. I just hope Stahelski and Reeves still have some love left in them for the fifth. 

Profit I dread this word in modern entertainment more than anything else. But let's hope as you said they won't ruin this franchise and make it the next F&F or Transformers?!

[legendarycurry]

15 hours ago, laagi said:

Profit I dread this word in modern entertainment more than anything else. But let's hope as you said they won't ruin this franchise and make it the next F&F or Transformers?!

Didn't this already happen? They are making a spinoff right i e the "Bumblebee"/ "Hobbs and Shaw" equivalent. And much like Fast and the Furious they just overload the cast and fill the movie with self-importance and false depth.

Question is though, what is the "drinking corona and saying the word family" of John Wick films?

I know for Yip Man movies it is when he gets in stance and says "Wing Chun, Yip Man"

I wonder if they will pull a Letty with the dog from the first film and it is just alive and brainwashed to work for the baddies or some shit.

[One Armed Boxer]

1 hour ago, legendarycurry said:

Question is though, what is the "drinking corona and saying the word family" of John Wick films?

“Yeeeeah” (spoken in a low drawl)

[legendarycurry]

27 minutes ago, One Armed Boxer said:

“Yeeeeah” (spoken in a low drawl)

good point.

Man I hope they don't CGI in a Lance Reddick tribute at the end of 5, where Wick and him say goodbye and walk into separate hotel rooms at the assassins' hotel while a Wiz Khalifa song plays

[Agent U]

4 hours ago, legendarycurry said:

I wonder if they will pull a Letty with the dog from the first film and it is just alive and brainwashed to work for the baddies or some shit.

Well, believe it or not, not that long ago I came across a post on Reddit saying it would be great if the wife wasn't dead and had in fact been working for the Table all along... 🤨 And I think the post may have actually been upvoted.

Query: do we know if JW5 is actually in pre-production, as in with the director and Keanu Reeves confirmed to be on board, or simply green-lit by Lionsgate (a no-brainer for a company with little else)?

Reeves was already looking so not up to par in many of the action scenes in JW4 though...

About F&F, I get the impression some of those references would be funny, but they're lost on me since I haven't watched any of those movies past the Tokyo one, and I'm certainly in no hurry to change that. That said, I certainly won't mind if that series continues up to entry #483920, since they seem to have a knack to gather as many 'actors' I can't stand in those as possible (just the guys, the female cast I'm aware of I actually like), and while they're busy there less risk of them showing up in something I'd be otherwise interested in.

 

[legendarycurry]

12 minutes ago, Agent U said:

Well, believe it or not, not that long ago I came across a post on Reddit saying it would be great if the wife wasn't dead and had in fact been working for the Table all along... 🤨 And I think the post may have actually been upvoted.

Query: do we know if JW5 is actually in pre-production, as in with the director and Keanu Reeves confirmed to be on board, or simply green-lit by Lionsgate (a no-brainer for a company with little else)?

Reeves was already looking so not up to par in many of the action scenes in JW4 though...

About F&F, I get the impression some of those references would be funny, but they're lost on me since I haven't watched any of those movies past the Tokyo one, and I'm certainly in no hurry to change that. That said, I certainly won't mind if that series continues up to entry #483920, since they seem to have a knack to gather as many 'actors' I can't stand in those as possible (just the guys, the female cast I'm aware of I actually like), and while they're busy there less risk of them showing up in something I'd be otherwise interested in.

 

Yeah it's like "ew another Fast and the furious? Oh well at least that prevents another XxX sequel"

[saltysam]

A fan of these movies but man this was excess and could've been better with 40 minutes trimmed. The gimmick of Scott Adkins in a fat suit didn't really work for me and i was surprised at how little the late Lance Reddick was actually in it. Donnie Yen was pretty cool and the last hour is just non stop madness, this is billed as the last one, box office suggests there will be another, hopefully around 2hrs please.

[BLfan]

Movies need to be under 100mins 😁 and I had to put JW Chapter 4 on hold after recovering from watching Avatar: The Way of Water last weekend.

[DiP]

Apparently, there was another fight scene in the Berlin club scene with Caine fighting off Killa's men on another floor, the guy he's holding at gunpoint looks like Chidi. The scene didn't make it to the final cut so this makes me wonder what else was cut out, especially scenes with Caine.

 

[starschwar]

There seem to be some significant missing pieces. 

 

Spoiler

At one point, John is asked to disarm himself.  He is carrying a revolver and a WWII era Walther pistol.  Why did he have these?  The way John seems to move from country to country without incident is also a bit confusing, considering how much trouble he had with that in the last movie, and that was with a lower bounty.   Bowery King's resolution raises some questions as well.  I get why John's actions get Winston what he wanted, but isn't the King still in a lot of trouble from his conduct back in 2?  What did John do to reverse this?

 

I read somewhere that there was at one point a workprint closer to 4 hours in length.  There had to be some good connective tissue in there.  I vaguely recall the director claiming that scenes cut from 3 were going to wind up in 4, but I can't really see how anything we saw could possibly have fit into the events of that film - I bet none of it made it into the final cut, again. 

I'd really be up for an extended edition.  Even if the pacing gets butchered, I'd prefer a little more coherence, at least for comparison's sake.

 

I did love the movie in the state it was released, though.  Up to par with the previous two.  Constant visual splendor, kick-ass action, memorable characters, and more of that cool High Table world building.  I'll wait 'till my second viewing before I make up my mind as to whether it's the best in the series or not.  But it's almost certainly the best part 4 of anything - I struggle to think of anything that comes close.  That last hour in particular had some of the highest high points of the franchise.

 

Spoiler

Fighting in traffic, the top-down Dragon's Breath shotgun sequence, and those stairs - all very impressive.

 

The extended Warriors homage was so much fun - I'm not even a big fan of that movie.  I knew they'd be giving it a nod by featuring the DJ in the trailer.  But her lines are often close if not verbatim to the original.  And that great cover of Nowhere to Hide - hell yeah.  And the radio station's call sign being WUXIA - forced, but c'mon, that's charming.

The French cover of "Paint it Black" gave me some mood whiplash though.  I can't disassociate it from  Talladega Nights.

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by starschwar