Enter the Dragon II

[shukocarl1441996347]

 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by shukocarl1441996347
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[NoKUNGFUforYU]

Meh, it wasn't that good of a movie to have another tournament, it would have worked as the further adventures of the two remaining characters possibly. I think that was the direction of some at the time, but his death was so sudden, who knows? The first 2 movies were very profitable because of low cost, but I don't know if they realized how big of a blockbuster ETD would be in time to plan ahead for sequels. And you might possibly need John Saxon, but by the time Bruce Le became a thing there was no interest in a co-production. Also, while these Bruceploitation films have a big fan base now (mostly from showing on TV in the 80's) they were considered pretty much scrapping the bottom of the barrel, and almost zero interest in the Asian markets.

[DragonClaws]

3 hours ago, shukocarl1441996347 said:

What do you think?

 

They could have made a sequel, with any one of the clones, but it wouldnt have the presence of BL to elevate it, that bit higher.

 

2 hours ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

I don't know if they realized how big of a blockbuster ETD would be in time to plan ahead for sequels.

 

Dont quote me, but I think they were in talks about making a sequel, after Warner Brother's had viewed the rough cut of ETD?.

 

3 hours ago, shukocarl1441996347 said:

He had the looks - with a slightly shorter haircut- the body and the fighting skills to take up the role vacated by Bruce...possibly for "Enter II". With acting/voice coaching and strict instructions to keep the scowling down, he MAY have pulled it off. It would have been interesting!

 

If you look at Tower of Death, it works better as a sequel to ETD, than it does a follow up to Robert Clouse's G.O.D. Micheal Worth pointed this out, when TOD, was the subject, on the Clones Cast

 

2 hours ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

Bruceploitation films have a big fan base now (mostly from showing on TV in the 80's) they were considered pretty much scrapping the bottom of the barrel, and almost zero interest in the Asian markets.

 

Didnt the Dragon Lee film's do well in Korea, during the late 70's?.

Edited February 1, 2019 by DragonClaws

[shukocarl]

On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 6:58 PM, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

Meh, it wasn't that good of a movie to have another tournament, it would have worked as the further adventures of the two remaining characters possibly. I think that was the direction of some at the time, but his death was so sudden, who knows? The first 2 movies were very profitable because of low cost, but I don't know if they realized how big of a blockbuster ETD would be in time to plan ahead for sequels. And you might possibly need John Saxon, but by the time Bruce Le became a thing there was no interest in a co-production. Also, while these Bruceploitation films have a big fan base now (mostly from showing on TV in the 80's) they were considered pretty much scrapping the bottom of the barrel, and almost zero interest in the Asian markets.

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by shukocarl

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

37 minutes ago, shukocarl said:

You fail to understand, I meant if Le had already become known and displaying the kind of form he does in this film - he surely would have been a contender for a sequel in the months following Enter's release. He was OBVIOUSLY too late to make it big when he made "Enter the Game of Death". 

At the time, the rush was to find someone who had a couple of things 1. An American Connection or Reputation as a fighter or serious martial arts credibility and 2. Someone very explosive like Lee, so a many Tae Kwon Do guys= Wong Tao, Byong Yu, Jhoon Rhee, etc all were an attempt to harness the US audience. The feeling was Bruce was gone, so don't try to find another Bruce. I am sure there were guys that could look like Bruce, but he had more than that. He was already well known enough and had made huge inroads to the martial arts community, something a Chen Kuan Tai, James Tien or Carter Wong could not let alone an actor who happened to be decent at martial arts, such as Ti Lung. I think the Man From Hong Kong was an attempt to use Wang Yu as a Bruce Lee replacement and that went really badly, no one could stand him on the set. Hong Kong moved on from Bruce (shapes changed the game, no one had to be superfast, just well rehearsed, clean form) and the idea of having a Chinese James Bond (that was supposedly Bruce's next step ETD 2 or not) was dropped. I think if there was a belief that you could have subbed anyone else right after ETD at the time, they would have. I personally think in hindsight that killing off Jim Kelly's character was a major mistake. No one would want to see John Saxon and a relatively unknown Chinese guy take Bruce's place in a sequel. Saxon had co starred with Brando and Eastwood and had no idea that this would be the movie he would be most remembered for, but audiences clicked with Kelly, not Saxon. And Saxon got no action star boost from the role, he was back on TV doing some movies of the week and playing cops for the most part, or Planet Earth, a planet ruled by women, where men are called Dinks.....

I digress. Anyway, if that had been an option, believe me, they would have found someone pronto, but as I said, Saxon was not a draw, they killed off the Kelly character and honestly, no one else thought he could be replaced. The greedy distributors just grabbed the cheapest stuff they could and drove the boom into the grindhouse, and only when in the 1980's Chuck Norris, the Ninja boom and the Karate Kid came out, was there a resurgence of martial arts films, but then it was not Kung Fu, instead it was Karate, Tae Kwon Do and the NINJA! 

[saltysam]

John Saxon is fantastic and a massive part of ETD.  I'm going to watch Kelly's BBJ this weekend and maybe HP. What a Sunday afternoon double feature.

Edited February 2, 2019 by saltysam

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

8 minutes ago, saltysam said:

John Saxon is fantastic and a massive part of ETD.  I'm going to watch Kelly's BBJ this weekend and maybe HP. What a Sunday afternoon double feature.

History shows that he could not or did not capitalize on the role. 

From his IMDB page

Strange New World (TV Movie) 
Capt. Anthony Vico

 1975Crossfire (TV Movie) 
Dave Ambrose

 1975Metralleta 'Stein' 
Mariano Beltrán

 1965-1975Gunsmoke (TV Series) 
Gristy Calhoun / Pedro Manez / Virgil Stanley / ...

- The Squaw (1975) ... Gristy Calhoun

- The Pillagers (1967) ... Pedro Manez

- The Whispering Tree (1966) ... Virgil Stanley

- The Avengers (1965) ... Cal Strom, Jr.

- Dry Road to Nowhere (1965) ... Dingo

 1974Mary Tyler Moore (TV Series) 
Mike Tedesca

- Menage-a-Phyllis (1974) ... Mike Tedesca

 1974Black Christmas 
Lt. Ken Fuller

 1974Planet Earth (TV Movie) 
Dylan Hunt

 1974Can Ellen Be Saved? (TV Movie) 
James Hallbeck

 1974Banacek (TV Series) 
Harry Harland

- The Vanishing Chalice (1974) ... Harry Harland

 1973Police Story (TV Series) 
Rick Calvelli

- Death on Credit (1973) ... Rick Calvelli

 1973Linda (TV Movie) 
Jeff Braden

 1973The Rookies (TV Series) 
Farley

- Cauldron (1973) ... Farley

 1973Enter the Dragon 
Roper

[shukocarl]

ojg

Edited February 3, 2019 by shukocarl

[DragonClaws]

9 hours ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

History shows that he could not or did not capitalize on the role. 

 

I dont think he wanted to do another MA film, otherwise he would have accepted the offers in th 70's. He's very open, about how he struggled with the action choreography, and its physical demands, during the making of ETD. Saying after the third day of shooting, he was pretty mch fed up with it. Despite being someone who took an interest in Fitness at the time, the Hong Kong crew, were just on anohter level, in this respect. Those guys had been doing this since they could walk, pretty much.

Maybe, if BL had lived, Saxon could have been talked into making a sequel?. I think ETD was never the best written movie, they could have made Saxon's character a boxer say?, with Han's tournament, about bringing together people from all fighting styles. That way, they didnt have to try an make him look like a Karate or Kung Fu master. It was given a T.V budget, and I dont think WB took it that seroisuly, until the box office started coming in?. If thefilm had flopped, of WB executives didnt like it, or have fait in the final film, it could have ended being made into a two part T.V special.

[saltysam]

John Saxon has had a good career, IMDB show 198 credits, he's co-starred with Eastwood, Redford, Clooney, been in cult horrors Elm Street and Cannibal Apocalypse. He;s been a solid, reliable performer down the years.And of course he was one the stars of the seminal christmas horror, Black Christmas.

Edited February 2, 2019 by saltysam

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

9 hours ago, shukocarl said:

F***k me, talk about over-analysing things.

More like a quick rundown of what happened with Golden Harvest and the Bruce Lee thing. Jackie Chan and Michael Hui saved Golden Harvest, not another Bruce Lee....

[Killer Meteor]

The 1974 book Cinema of Vengeance shows a HK movie industry in a bit of a downward spiral, as local audiences were getting tired of martial arts movies.  Shaws made the Shaolin Cycle in Taiwan, but they were trying to diversify the range of action movies, not least because they had a fair wu xias from a few years back not yet in HK release.

 

 

[DragonClaws]

 

Quote

I'd rather Kelly had appeared in more serious martial arts flicks. - @Killer Meteor

 

The reason I've quoted you here, is I feel WB failed to hit the mark, with making Jim Kelly a star. They were more interested in promoting him, than trying to find another person to replace B, in some kind of sequel. I've also read that he wasnt the easiest guy to work with personally?, which is why he only made one film in Hong Kong. How would Black Belt Jones and Hot Patato have ended up, with anohter director?, and less comedy.

Warner Brothers put some money behind Jim Kelly, he had the charisma and look, but the films were just not popular enough. Ok, he wasnt going to fill the gap made by BL, but he could carry a film. It's clear they wanted him to be their next big star, otherwise they would have cast somebody else. Fred Weintraub worked on both of Kelly's WB features. I think WB also put some money into The Tatoo Connection(1974), but like his others films, it just didnt make enough money. If audiences had really got behind Black Belt Jones, as bad as it was, thn WB would have funded sequels etc.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by DragonClaws

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

Kelly wasn't the whole package martial arts wise. He was very inflexible and couldn't kick worth a shit, and you needed to be good at everything to try and get in league with Bruce. Also, most of the bad guys he duked it out with, especially in Hot Potato, were laughable. But they couldn't upstage him, so a recipe for disaster, fight scene wise. Pretty sure that Tattoo Connection had nothing to do with Warners. I saw it, no subs, at a small theater in Chinatown that usually showed black and white stuff. My buddy translated for me, so it wasn't too bad. Played with that silly Meng Fei movie where the guy did toad.

[Killer Meteor]

Tattoo Connection (1978, not 1974) was released to UK video as Black Belt Jones 2, but AFAIK Warners had nothing to do with it. It came after Kelly had finsihed with Warners and done the Al Adamson flick Black Samurai.

[DragonClaws]

19 hours ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

Pretty sure that Tattoo Connection had nothing to do with Warners.

 

17 hours ago, Killer Meteor said:

Tattoo Connection (1978, not 1974) was released to UK video as Black Belt Jones 2, but AFAIK Warners had nothing to do with it. It came after Kelly had finsihed with Warners and done the Al Adamson flick Black Samurai.

 

Sure I 've read somewhere, that it was a co-production between WB and Hong Kong, with WB using a pseudonym name?. I may be getting my old school facts mixed up here?.

 

 

[Killer Meteor]

It's not out of the question. They didn't distribute it in the US, that was World Northal.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

4 hours ago, DragonClaws said:

 

 

Sure I 've read somewhere, that it was a co-production between WB and Hong Kong, with WB using a pseudonym name?. I may be getting my old school facts mixed up here?.

 

 

You might be thinking of Cleopatra Jones and the Casino of Gold, which was a Warner co-production. Mostly a flop, played on a double bill the Enter The Dragon as the second run co feature, which probably got whoever went to see it in the theater in the first place. She had a short career, rightfully, LOL! I mean, that was a great time to be an African American action star, but she couldn't get a bit of Pam Grier's work.

http://hkmdb.com/db/movies/view.mhtml?id=5650&display_set=eng

[DragonClaws]

19 hours ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

You might be thinking of Cleopatra Jones and the Casino of Gold, which was a Warner co-production. Mostly a flop, played on a double bill the Enter The Dragon as the second run co feature, which probably got whoever went to see it in the theater in the first place. She had a short career, rightfully, LOL! I mean, that was a great time to be an African American action star, but she couldn't get a bit of Pam Grier's work.

 

You guys are most likely right on this one, it may have been a another U.S film company?, or I might just be mixing facts up. Cleopatra Jones and the Casino of Gold, is a film that Ive heard a lot about, but never watched, it never seem's to get much priase of any kind.

 

 

On 2/1/2019 at 6:58 PM, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

Meh, it wasn't that good of a movie to have another tournament,

 

Even when I first watched ETD, it stuck out to me, how weak the actual tournament was, the lesser known characters we never see fight, Peter Archer just vanishing from the film/tournament. We get a few brief weapons fight clips, or sparring shots?. They may have filmed more non BL footage, related to the actual tournament?. It just appears to be a random series of fights, with no actual tournament style/approach?. I suppose it was just a way of Han's character, to get close to the fighters he wanted to hire, for his shady business practices.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

There were a lot of issues. Bruce wanted the screenwriter fired, but he just hid in HK until I think he ran into Bruce and BS'd him. No screenwriter on set. Second, Robert Clouse was a hack, and some of it he could not help- he was completely deaf, basically a glorified camera man. He could work cheap on these films and be the "go to guy" for martial arts films. If we take any of his work, Game of Death, Big Brawl, China O'Brien, etc, the only reason to watch them is for the talent of the martial artists, the rest was pretty bad. Let's be honest, as far as storylines go, Shaw Brothers was making much better films like Blood Brothers or even Duel of Fists with a fraction of the budget. If you read Matthew Polly's book, Bruce only saw ETD as a very entry level way to get back into Hollywood. He did not see it as a good film. Bruce liked stuff like Spartacus or the Sand Pebbles. He knew what a good film looked like. The only reason ETD was great was Bruce was great, and that's all we got. Honestly, if he was healthy he may have been able to get to the level of You Only Live Twice, etc. I seriously doubt he would have worked with Clouse.

PS, they should have had a reference to Archer and Lau Wing and whose side they joined in the brawl at the end. Maybe add Roper fighting Archer as Bruce gets rid of Ohara?

Edited February 5, 2019 by NoKUNGFUforYU

[DragonClaws]

19 minutes ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

There were a lot of issues. Bruce wanted the screenwriter fired, but he just hid in HK until I think he ran into Bruce and BS'd him. No screenwriter on set. Second, Robert Clouse was a hack, and some of it he could not help- he was completely deaf, basically a glorified camera man. He could work cheap on these films and be the "go to guy" for martial arts films. If we take any of his work, Game of Death, Big Brawl, China O'Brien, etc, the only reason to watch them is for the talent of the martial artists, the rest was pretty bad.

 

Yeah, you got a writer who doesnt repsect the fim's star, adding as many words with the letter R in as possible.

Even if they had hired a better director, they still had the poor/aceint film equipment to work with. Cinematographer, Gil Hubbs, doesnt get enough credit, for making the film look good, visually. He took a lot of camera lenses with him, that they simply didnt have in Hong Kong at that time.

 

 

22 minutes ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

The only reason ETD was great was Bruce was great, and that's all we got.

 

True, and apart from the release of King Boxer(1972), the Western market, hadnt been flooded with Martial Arts films, or hundreds of cheap exploitation titles. My old man often says, that most people in the 70's knew these films were made on the cheap. By the time I watched the film, I'd already been exposed to other Martial Arts films, and non MA films, that were heavily inlfuenced by the BL movies etc. To most Westeners, the fighting arts from Asia was new to them. There's very little movie audiences havent seen now, they are far more jaded, and not so easy to impress. The higher the bar gets raised, the harder it is to impress people.

[saltysam]

There was a really interesting interview with Michael Allin in an issue of Martial Arts Movies and another with a quite bitter sounding Jim Kelly in another. Boy selling my collection of that magazine i regret more and more each day.

[Killer Meteor]

Still beats the tournament in King Boxer - great fights throughout the movie, but the tournament reminds me of the "Judo Chop!" moments in Austin Powers. It's funny how it took four years to get from The Chinese Boxer to films like Heroes Two where they actually use Chinese martial arts.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Killer Meteor

[DragonClaws]

On 2/6/2019 at 1:17 PM, Killer Meteor said:

Still beats the tournament in King Boxer - great fights throughout the movie, but the tournament reminds me of the "Judo Chop!" moments in Austin Powers.

 

It would be fun to see, what WB had in their archive, in regards to the tournament scenes. Not that I can imagine, much of it being worth, putting back in the film?. Despite many synopsis for the film, ofte nover selling the tournment angle, the more memorables scenes, are not related to it. With the excepetion of the O'Hara/Mr Lee fight.

 

If Sammo Hung didnt have other film duties at the time, would we have seen him in a slightly bigger role in ETD?. He would have made for a great assistant choreogrpaher, for the film.

[DragonClaws]

 

Mattew Polly's book confirms some interesting information in regards to Warner Brother's wanting to make two sequels to Enter The Dragon. They even had these completed before Bruce Lee passed away.