Moderator One Armed Boxer Posted July 5, 2018 Moderator Share Posted July 5, 2018 If you're like me, you've probably wondered what it is about the interminable bore fest 'Enter the Dragon' that makes certain fans sing its praises so much. Such questions may never have a definitive answer, but explaining why it's the most overrated kung-fu movie ever made is a much easier task. Check out the top 10 reasons why the Little Dragon should never have abandoned 'Game of Death' for this stinker below - http://cityonfire.com/enter-the-dragon-the-most-overrated-kung-fu-movie-ever/ 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member TibetanWhiteCrane Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 Hear, hear! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Fist of the Heavenly Sky Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 I'll read the article in a bit, but I'll say this much: I don't think ETD is an objectively bad movie in spite of it's many flaws, but it should be obvious it's really not much of a Bruce Lee movie at all. I always felt John Saxon and Jim Kelly's characters were the defacto protagonists, and indeed, they're the ones who advance the movie with their charisma alone. Lee's character exists solely to fill in the quota of fighting scenes, and not much else. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member SANTI Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 still the film was a classic . but you guys are right, Bruce didnt have full control on the film , expect for the fight scenes . heck out the add effects to our bust 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member DragonClaws Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 I'm going to be real lazy and just copy and paste my response from over at CityonFire.Com. Excellent article Paul, and I agree with many of the points you mkae, even if I am a much bigger fan of the movie, than you are. When I first saw this fick, it was missing the nunchaku segment and most of the stronger violence, from the scene with Bolo beating up the guards. Being someone brought up on 90’s actioners, it looked ropey and dated. That said, it’s another of those films, that to fully appreciate, you had to be brought up in another era. My Dad said he’d seen nothing like it back in 73, as someone brought up on the old Hollywood John Wayne school of action, with the wide swinging arm style beat down’s. A completely different context to in which I first viewed it. One of my major gripes is, Clouse filmed most of the fights, with the camera lens cropping off most of the action, even in the widescreen print. Lee’s rythmic fighting style, looked better when the camera is zoomed further out, rather than closer in. Bolo’s death was lame, but the fight in the current print, is missing the origial ending, involving the knife Bolo cuts Lee free with. And what about poor Autralian Martial Artist Peter Archer, he doesnt get any favourable screen time at all?. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Ramji Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 Hmm, I think ETD is his best film. It’s iconic. Bruce comes across at his most charismatic and electric in this to me. Still will re-evaluate when I have time. Want to go through them all again on Blu ray when I can afford to pick them up. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member DragonClaws Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 40 minutes ago, Ramji said: Still will re-evaluate when I have time. Want to go through them all again on Blu ray when I can afford to pick them up. If you live in the U.K, it's worth checking your local Sainbury's Blu-Ray/DVD section, where I picked up this great set for just twenty pounds.This was pre-Christmas, but I''ve noticed they still have it on offer now and again. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bruce-Lee-Master-Collection-Blu-ray/dp/B01LXMH1OO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Drunken Monk Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 I found the article to be overly harsh and, at times, pompous. It seems to forget that “Enter the Dragon” was made in the 70’s and, for its time, it was unique. Half of the ten points can be dismissed by focusing on what the film was trying to do: make a big Hollywood kung fu film. Of course it was going to focus on Jihn Saxon at times. Of course it was going to minimalize Angela Mao’s role. And sure, it’s bound to make Bruce Lee an untouchable force of nature. I think O’Hara, on looks alone, is menacing. I also think the film is SUPPOSED to have elements of James Bond. Ham isn’t mean to be a shapes master. That’s not what the film is about. The article should have been called “How Enter the Dragon could’ve been better in the eyes of a kung fu fan” because that’s essentially what it is. In reality, “Enter the Dragon” was something audiences had never seen in the 70’s and, to this day, is massively iconic. We can compare it to modern martial arts films but that’s just apples and oranges. It’s a product of its time. And a damn good one. 13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member TibetanWhiteCrane Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 41 minutes ago, Drunken Monk said: I found the article to be overly harsh and, at times, pompous. It seems to forget that “Enter the Dragon” was made in the 70’s and, for its time, it was unique. It was unique in the West, but still a watered down version of an Asian phenomenon and not very impressive when held up against the best of HK cinema at the time. Half of the ten points can be dismissed by focusing on what the film was trying to do: make a big Hollywood kung fu film. Of course it was going to focus on Jihn Saxon at times. Of course it was going to minimalize Angela Mao’s role. And sure, it’s bound to make Bruce Lee an untouchable force of nature. Just because you put "of course" in front these points, doesn't stop them from still being flaws of the film. I think O’Hara, on looks alone, is menacing. I also think the film is SUPPOSED to have elements of James Bond. Ham isn’t mean to be a shapes master. That’s not what the film is about. I think Bob Wall looks like a chump and has horrible form, but that's just opinion. Yes, the Bond influence is intentional, but by '73 copying Bond was kinda old hat. No, Han was not, cuz shapes was barely a thing yet, but Shek Kin was a much more adept screen fighter than what is shown here, so why not utilize that? He looked awful in action here, as did most anyone who wasn't Bruce Lee. The article should have been called “How Enter the Dragon could’ve been better in the eyes of a kung fu fan” because that’s essentially what it is. In reality, “Enter the Dragon” was something audiences had never seen in the 70’s and, to this day, is massively iconic. We can compare it to modern martial arts films but that’s just apples and oranges. It’s a product of its time. And a damn good one. Again, mainstream Western audiences.... and we all know King Boxer preceeded it in theaters and was a hit, so it wasn't like a totally new experience. No one is comparing it to modern martial arts films. And cool, you think it's a damn good movie, others might disagree. Personally I think it's fairly entertaining 70's cheese, but does it hold a candle to the likes of King Boxer, Hapkido, When Taekwondo Strikes, Boxer from Shantung etc. Not even close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Drunken Monk Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 I’m not going to go tit for tat with you. Your points are as valid as mine and some of them I actually agree with. I’m with you in a way: I find the film to be a great slice of 70’s silliness. But then, I feel most people do too. I suppose it’s overrated-ness is entirely subjective. I just happen to be one that doesn’t think along those lines. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member TibetanWhiteCrane Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 But do you rate it above Lee's three HK films? Personally I might rate it above Big Boss for sheer entertainment value, with Way of the Dragon as my fave, though not blind to its flaws and Fist of Fury as a close second. With all that said, I was never the biggest Bruce Lee fan and he was not my introduction to HK cinema as so many others. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Drunken Monk Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 20 minutes ago, TibetanWhiteCrane said: But do you rate it above Lee's three HK films? Personally I might rate it above Big Boss for sheer entertainment value, with Way of the Dragon as my fave, though not blind to its flaws and Fist of Fury as a close second. With all that said, I was never the biggest Bruce Lee fan and he was not my introduction to HK cinema as so many others. I’ll be honest; I’m not a huge Bruce fan either. I respect his work but I don’t love it. I certainly rate “Enter...” over “The Big Boss” but I haven’t seen the “Way of the Dragon” or “Fist...” I’m quite some time. I suppose I need to add them to me rewatch list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Phantom Dreamer Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 6 hours ago, DragonClaws said: One of my major gripes is, Clouse filmed most of the fights, with the camera lens cropping off most of the action, even in the widescreen print. Lee’s rythmic fighting style, looked better when the camera is zoomed further out, rather than closer in. This annoys me as well and I always wondered why that happened. I read that Gil Hubbs was unfamiliar with the camera equipment and I just accepted that is one of the reasons Enter was filmed the way it was. So many fight scenes filmed in extreme close up or from the waist up. Doesn't make sense. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member DragonClaws Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Phantom Dreamer said: This annoys me as well and I always wondered why that happened. I read that Gil Hubbs was unfamiliar with the camera equipment and I just accepted that is one of the reasons Enter was filmed the way it was. So many fight scenes filmed in extreme close up or from the waist up. Doesn't make sense. It had more to do with Clouse's style, Gil Hubbs did say most of the equipment was from the World War 2 era, and that he was glad he took so much of his own equipment there. Just some more ETD ramblings. I think ETD holds up against Hap-Ki-Do and King Boxer, the cavern sequence was year's infront of its time. Lee's choreogrpahy, while flawed at times, was unlike the more generic fights scenes of the era, featured in most other HK movies. While its more obvious in ETD, all MA movies of the time, strived to make the star look the better than the rest of the cast. Jimmy Wang Yu, always came out like an instrucable machine, even when many of the stuntmen were better Martial Artists with less screen time. I dont enjoy King Boxer any less than ETD, but I feel BL approach was very avant garde for the time. Many choreogrpahers could re-produce the action scene in When Taekwondo Strikes, but knowone has yet to replicate BL's on screen fighting. Remember many were copying him, not the other way round. Put Lo Lieh or David Chiang in the lead, and I think the film would have been a lot worse. Fan's at the time didnt complain about the lack of other Matial Artists getting more screen time. A low budget film like this, was not made to hold up to repeat viewings, knowone at the time new about DVD or Home Video. The originality of the film is almost non existent now, as its been copied to the point of parody. You didnt need as much to impress fan back then either, as you do now, for those brought up post Jackie Chan/Sammo Hung The Matrix/The Raid etc. The bars been raised so much higher. We all know had BL lived, his early films, would just have been oddities in his filmogrpahy, as he went on to make bigger and better films. Edited July 5, 2018 by DragonClaws 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member TibetanWhiteCrane Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 7 minutes ago, DragonClaws said: I think ETD holds up against Hap-Ki-Do and King Boxer Agree to disagree. Many choreogrpahers could re-produce the action scene in When Taekwondo Strikes Eeeeh, no. Sammo upped the ante choreo-wise with every film he did for GH at that time. Look at Hwang In Sik under Bruce and then look at him under Sammo. The choreo of WTS is exceptional for '73, with Sammo making EVERYONE look great, whether they be HK actors, stunt guys, Japanese actor Kenji Kazama, real life Korean martial artist Jhoon Ree, his white female TKD student Anne Winton or whoever. Very few, and I would probably dare say NO other HK action directors of that time could pull that off to that level. but knowone has yet to rpelicate BL's on screen fighting Many has done that since, to various degrees of success. I definitely don't rate him or his style the end-all be-all of Kung Fu cinema. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member DragonClaws Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) Ji Han Jai looked equally bad in Hap-Ki-Do as he did in GOD, one under Sammos direction, the other under Lee's. BL was wanting to replace the guy, after seeing the film he shot with him.Sammo Hung, is one of the biggest Bl supporter's around, he once sat down Mike Leeder at Golden Harvest studios, and converted Mike into a full blown BL convert. By pointing out the many qualities, that seperated BL from others of his time, including himself. Mr Hung is expert on the topic, and who would I be to argue with his opinion, I'm just an armchair critic. Sammo Hung is master of equal talent in my opinion, he just didnt have that raw magnatism Lee did. BL is far from the be all and end all of MA cinema, especially with a filmogrpahy so small, you can barely even compare him to others in some respects. Edited July 5, 2018 by DragonClaws 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member TibetanWhiteCrane Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 (edited) I happen to think JHJ looks a little better in Hapkido, but no, there was not much anyone could do with him. He didn't lend himself well to scren fighting. And no, I don't think Sammo in terms of classic leading man material is equal to Bruce. I think he was a way better screen fighter and choreographer though. Edited July 5, 2018 by TibetanWhiteCrane 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member DragonClaws Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, TibetanWhiteCrane said: I think he was a way better screen fighter and choreographer though. True, but he also got to have a lot more experience doing it, BL was still learnig trade when he made ETD, despite three films under his belt. Sammo had worked on nine films, maybe more, as fight director, before BL had even made his debut feature. Sammo was being working on movies and learning his trade. While Lee was an unknown, getting odd jobs in Hollywood.By the time he made When Taekwondo Strikes, he'd acquirred even more fight directing experience. We could only really fairly compare the two, if BL had made more movies. Imagine if Sammo had passed away after just working on his first four films, would we still rate him as a ground breaking talent?. Now coparing Jackie and Sammo, you got two guys around the same age, who came from the same background, and both have extensive filmogrpahies. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member saltysam Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 ETD is a great film. love it.Fantastic Score, cool fight scenes,excellent cast. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member sym8 Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 Great article.I like E.T.D don’t love it just like it,I agree with a lot of your points but to say you would rather watch iron monkey 2 oh hell no.I too think it would have been great to have Sammo choreograph the movie but I think we all know that wouldn’t happen it was all about Bruce,still think it’s entertaining though.👍👍👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member TibetanWhiteCrane Posted July 5, 2018 Member Share Posted July 5, 2018 11 minutes ago, DragonClaws said: True, but he also got to have a lot more experience doing it, BL was still learnig trade when he made ETD, despite three films under his belt. Sammo had worked on nine films, maybe more, as fight director, before BL had even made his debut feature. Well, to be perfectly fair, Bruce was already choreographing on Green Hornet in '66 and a few movies in the late 60's. Sammo didn't start till '69, but of course had the opera backrgound and had by '73 done many more choreo jobs than Bruce. We could only really fairly compare the two, if BL had made more movies. Imagine if Sammo had passed away after just working on his first four films, would we still rate him as a ground breaking talent? True, they can't really be compared, but many do, and many favor Bruce and his style. I just happen to favor Sammo. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Killer Meteor Posted July 7, 2018 Member Share Posted July 7, 2018 To me, Enter the Dragon is more a great exploitation film then a great martial art film - it's a very entertaining hybrid of kung fu, James Bond, Blaxploitation and Fu Manchu cliches. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member DragonClaws Posted July 8, 2018 Member Share Posted July 8, 2018 Looking on the positive side of ETD, it was a big game change for the how Asian men where presented in film. BL's character was not the servant type role, or a member of the quite bullied minority, he was kick-ass monk, who exuded a cool tough image. Lee's role was a big middle finger to this kind of thing. BL presented to the world, the new stronger image of the Asian action star, which would pave the way for decades to come. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Killer Meteor Posted July 8, 2018 Member Share Posted July 8, 2018 It's a shame Lee and Williams get no scenes together. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member sifu iron perm Posted July 9, 2018 Member Share Posted July 9, 2018 On 7/8/2018 at 12:51 PM, Killer Meteor said: It's a shame Lee and Williams get no scenes together. 😬Oh that is True!!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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