Member Cognoscente Posted May 11, 2021 Member Share Posted May 11, 2021 One of the things that went in Bruce's favour was that there were so many photos of him with different women that Betty could be lost in the shuffle by being dismissed as another hanger-on, of which there were many. Clearly, Bruce was savvy enough to make sure that she wasn't seen on the GOD and ETD sets. Come to think of it, we don't even know if she visited the set of When Taekwondo Strikes. One more thing that's worthy of note is that there has never been a photo of Betty with Bruce on any of the Shaw sets. He took Brandon with him, he took Unicorn with him, he took Wu Ngan with him, he even took John Saxon with him...but not Betty. It would be awesome if someone did a YouTube video that consisted of nothing but freeze-frames of clapperboard shots so that we can identify the timeline of the GOD production. Bruce should probably have used the ETD casting period to find a Kung Fu expert for GOD. That way, he could have gained some much needed resting time for the remainder of April instead of screen-testing Wong Shun-Leung and Joey Chen. If there was one good thing to come from Bruce losing weight, it is that it makes it easier to pinpoint that he auditioned people almost immediately after filming the Sammo fight in ETD. There were a few people on the set of Hapkido who could have played the Kung Fu guardian: Sammo Hung, Bruce Leung Siu-Lung (a Wing Chun practitioner), Alan Chui Chung-San (a martial arts instructor) and Lee Ka-Ting (who Bruce picked to be one of the stuntmen who would join him stateside). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member DragonClaws Posted May 11, 2021 Author Member Share Posted May 11, 2021 (edited) On 5/11/2021 at 7:50 AM, Cognoscente said: There were a few people on the set of Hapkido who could have played the Kung Fu guardian: Sammo Hung, Bruce Leung Siu-Lung (a Wing Chun practitioner), Alan Chui Chung-San (a martial arts instructor) and Lee Ka-Ting (who Bruce picked to be one of the stuntmen who would join him stateside). On 5/11/2021 at 7:50 AM, Cognoscente said: Bruce should probably have used the ETD casting period to find a Kung Fu expert for GOD. That way, he could have gained some much needed resting time for the remainder of April instead of screen-testing Wong Shun-Leung and Joey Chen. If there was one good thing to come from Bruce losing weight, it is that it makes it easier to pinpoint that he auditioned people almost immediately after filming the Sammo fight in ETD. He might have already chosen a replacement for Mr Kimura?. Wong Shun-Leung and Joey Chen might have been auditioned for other roles within G.O.D, or for a futre project?. On 5/11/2021 at 7:50 AM, Cognoscente said: One of the things that went in Bruce's favour was that there were so many photos of him with different women that Betty could be lost in the shuffle by being dismissed as another hanger-on, of which there were many. Clearly, Bruce was savvy enough to make sure that she wasn't seen on the GOD and ETD sets. Photos might exist?, they might simply not be available to the public. There are no images from his return visit to the states to view the rough cut of ETD . When he was also looking to find a new home in Carlifornia. Or any images from his trip to Korea for G.O.D location scouting. He met Japanese actor Shintaro Katsu in Japan in 1972, but there is no picture evidence of this either. Edited May 12, 2021 by DragonClaws 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Cognoscente Posted May 11, 2021 Member Share Posted May 11, 2021 I thought there were some photos of his return from the states - one of them supposedly used for the cover of Fighting Spirit, unless these photos of him were took in May. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member DragonClaws Posted May 11, 2021 Author Member Share Posted May 11, 2021 8 hours ago, Cognoscente said: I thought there were some photos of his return from the states - one of them supposedly used for the cover of Fighting Spirit, unless these photos of him were took in May. Those pictures where taken on the street outside his Hong Kong home, I'm sure what dates they were taken though?. If you look, the last two images were taken just outside the gate to his house. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Cognoscente Posted May 11, 2021 Member Share Posted May 11, 2021 (edited) I suspect that they were taken in May since he had no stubble in any of his April photos. The praying hands gesture looks like Bruce's way of saying: "Thank God I'm still alive. Here's hoping..." Also, the June photos of him on the WTS set show him with a bit more muscle, which would have taken a considerable amount of time to put on following his return on June 9. The movie finished filming in early July (i.e. Jhoon flew home on July 6). According to Bob Wall, Bruce didn't feel like working out during his medical short leave in the states. Edited May 11, 2021 by Cognoscente 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member DragonClaws Posted May 11, 2021 Author Member Share Posted May 11, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, Cognoscente said: Also, the June photos of him on the WTS set show him with a bit more muscle, which would have taken a considerable amount of time to put on following his return on June 9. The movie finished filming in early July (i.e. Jhoon flew home on July 6). According to Bob Wall, Bruce didn't feel like working out during his medical short leave in the states. With the amount of years he had spent training, he would have got his muscle back pretty quickly. It wasn't like he appeared looking heavier than before, muscle memory will have played a big part in this. Just how long did he stop wieght training for?, Dan Inosanto and other sources say he did stop using resistance training in 1973. Check out the link below, for some of my thoughts on the connections between When Taekwondo Strikes & Game of Death. Edited May 11, 2021 by DragonClaws 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Josh Baker Posted May 12, 2021 Member Share Posted May 12, 2021 20 hours ago, Cognoscente said: Bruce wasn't one of those celebs who would tell the press about his sex life. At best, his affair with Betty was probably something that only people in his inner circle knew about. It was only after he died that the affair came to light. Like with ETD, the best way to work out when something was filmed is to check the clapperboard dates. For example, Fred Weintraub claimed that Bruce failed to show up for filming in late January '73 but the clapperboard footage says otherwise. In the case of GOD, someone should put together a collage of screenshots showing the many clapperboard dates. Filming dates... WOTD: 4 May 1972 - 29 June 1972. ETD: 25 January 1973 - middle of April 1973 (i.e. not just the Sammo fight but the pick-up shots for the mirror climax). Although Kareem, Ji and Dan were not experienced on-screen fighters, Bruce knocked out those fight scenes relatively quickly. I understand that Bruce was figuratively handicapped in '72 with Taky Kimura turning him down, but he still could have filmed around his absence. If filming in September, October and November can result in a half-completed GOD then Bruce would have been able to complete the movie in '73 had it not been for his collapse (because then it would be a case of dusting it off in May, June and July). Did anyone ask cinematographer Tadashi Nishimoto about the filming of GOD? Because I think your theory of Bruce shooting dialogue scenes not featuring him holds water, because it would explain why he said hed shot half the movie in that letter, and what hed been spending three months doing apart from shooting fight scenes, but the problem is theres no evidence/cataloguing of dialogue scenes being shot in specific locations or on Golden Harvest soundstages, something crew members would obviously remember doing unless they were suffering from collective amnesia. Another possibility is that Bruce was exaggerating how much he had shot in the letter to make himself feel better about how much more he needed to shoot; I do this sometimes when I'm talking to someone about a project I'm working on, I'll slightly exaggerate how much I've done to make myself feel secure that I dont have a mountain to climb in terms of completing it; maybe Bruce was doing something similar? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member DragonClaws Posted May 12, 2021 Author Member Share Posted May 12, 2021 9 hours ago, Josh Baker said: Did anyone ask cinematographer Tadashi Nishimoto about the filming of GOD? He's been interviewed a number of times regarding his work with the late actor. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Josh Baker Posted May 12, 2021 Member Share Posted May 12, 2021 12 minutes ago, DragonClaws said: He's been interviewed a number of times regarding his work with the late actor. Yes so if anyone knows if more GOD footage was shot it would be him 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Cognoscente Posted May 12, 2021 Member Share Posted May 12, 2021 3 hours ago, Josh Baker said: Did anyone ask cinematographer Tadashi Nishimoto about the filming of GOD? Because I think your theory of Bruce shooting dialogue scenes not featuring him holds water, because it would explain why he said he'd shot half the movie in that letter, and what he'd been spending three months doing apart from shooting fight scenes, but the problem is there's no evidence/cataloguing of dialogue scenes being shot in specific locations or on Golden Harvest soundstages, something crew members would obviously remember doing unless they were suffering from collective amnesia. Another possibility is that Bruce was exaggerating how much he had shot in the letter to make himself feel better about how much more he needed to shoot; I do this sometimes when I'm talking to someone about a project I'm working on, I'll slightly exaggerate how much I've done to make myself feel secure that I don't have a mountain to climb in terms of completing it; maybe Bruce was doing something similar? LJF (i.e. Darren Chua) was supposed to have interview Tadashi. It's unfortunate that James Tien refuses to do interviews. Apart from him and Tadashi, there's Ricky Chik (the assistant director of every martial arts movie that Bruce starred in). Bruce's day-timers would have been useful but they haven't been released to the public in their full glory. In an interview conducted by Bey Logan, Lam Ching-Ying told him that Bruce managed to have GOD two thirds complete before he died. Presumably, this transition from doing a half (approximately 50 minutes) to two thirds (66 minutes*) was more likely to have been filmed in late June and early July. * The overall intended running time can't have been any longer than 99 minutes. WOTD was 95 minutes long whereas ETD was 99 minutes long. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member DragonClaws Posted May 12, 2021 Author Member Share Posted May 12, 2021 8 hours ago, Cognoscente said: Apart from him and Tadashi, there's Ricky Chik (the assistant director of every martial arts movie that Bruce starred in). Bruce's day-timers would have been useful but they haven't been released to the public in their full glory. Does anyone know what happened to Ricky Chik?. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Josh Baker Posted May 12, 2021 Member Share Posted May 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Cognoscente said: LJF (i.e. Darren Chua) was supposed to have interview Tadashi. It's unfortunate that James Tien refuses to do interviews. Apart from him and Tadashi, there's Ricky Chik (the assistant director of every martial arts movie that Bruce starred in). Bruce's day-timers would have been useful but they haven't been released to the public in their full glory. In an interview conducted by Bey Logan, Lam Ching-Ying told him that Bruce managed to have GOD two thirds complete before he died. Presumably, this transition from doing a half (approximately 50 minutes) to two thirds (66 minutes*) was more likely to have been filmed in late June and early July. * The overall intended running time can't have been any longer than 99 minutes. WOTD was 95 minutes long whereas ETD was 99 minutes long. If this is true Bruce managed to get the film fully casted (apart from the other two members of the Pagoda team) and shoot basically all the interiors, and all that needed to be shot was the Taky Kimura (kung fu master) floor and the location footage in Korea. If this is true it's pretty revelatory as it means GH basically junked most of a movie after Bruce died, and somehow has kept it hidden from public view for half a century, whether through destroying the negatives or burying it deep in the Fortune Star/Golden Harvest film vaults. I guess barely any of this footage features Bruce or they wouldve used it in the '78 version, so largely comprises of his sister being kidnapped/or scenes with James Tien and Chieh Yuan at the villains hideout. I would obviously love to see this footage and it would also be nice if more corroborating evidence existed, like Bruce's day timers as you mentioned. I mean if this does exist surely Shannon Lee must be aware of it, I cant think of any legal restrictions off the top of my head that would prevent her from talking about this unseen GOD footage, whether it features Bruce or not. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Josh Baker Posted May 12, 2021 Member Share Posted May 12, 2021 2 hours ago, DragonClaws said: Does anyone know what happened to Ricky Chik?. Yeah I would like to know if hes been interviewed on the production of GOD. If anyone would know of the existence of more footage, it would someone like him who was basically on set every day. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Josh Baker Posted May 12, 2021 Member Share Posted May 12, 2021 3 hours ago, Cognoscente said: LJF (i.e. Darren Chua) was supposed to have interview Tadashi. It's unfortunate that James Tien refuses to do interviews. Apart from him and Tadashi, there's Ricky Chik (the assistant director of every martial arts movie that Bruce starred in). Bruce's day-timers would have been useful but they haven't been released to the public in their full glory. In an interview conducted by Bey Logan, Lam Ching-Ying told him that Bruce managed to have GOD two thirds complete before he died. Presumably, this transition from doing a half (approximately 50 minutes) to two thirds (66 minutes*) was more likely to have been filmed in late June and early July. * The overall intended running time can't have been any longer than 99 minutes. WOTD was 95 minutes long whereas ETD was 99 minutes long. The thought crossed my mind that maybe Lam Ching Ying mistook rehearsal footage (as in rehearsals for the nunchaku fight in the New Territories) as scenes to be featured in the final film, hence the two thirds comment? I mean I doubt it coz he wouldve been made aware by Bruce they were just rehearsals, but its just a theory 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Cognoscente Posted May 12, 2021 Member Share Posted May 12, 2021 22 minutes ago, Josh Baker said: If this is true Bruce managed to get the film fully casted (apart from the other two members of the Pagoda team) and shoot basically all the interiors, and all that needed to be shot was the Taky Kimura (kung fu master) floor and the location footage in Korea. If this is true it's pretty revelatory as it means GH basically junked most of a movie after Bruce died, and somehow has kept it hidden from public view for half a century, whether through destroying the negatives or burying it deep in the Fortune Star/Golden Harvest film vaults. I guess barely any of this footage features Bruce or they wouldve used it in the '78 version, so largely comprises of his sister being kidnapped/or scenes with James Tien and Chieh Yuan at the villains hideout. I would obviously love to see this footage and it would also be nice if more corroborating evidence existed, like Bruce's day timers as you mentioned. I mean if this does exist surely Shannon Lee must be aware of it, I cant think of any legal restrictions off the top of my head that would prevent her from talking about this unseen GOD footage, whether it features Bruce or not. Bruce Lee shooting tons of footage of Tien would explain two things - why the below Golden Movie News spread has Tien's name come before Lee's, and why Tien would ever agree to be in a movie directed by a guy who stole his thunder. It's like Eric Stoltz agreeing to be directed by Michael J. Fox after being replaced on Back to the Future. Speaking of which, BTTF reminds me of GOD because many people believed that Eric only shot a few scenes, but this was because the studio controlled the exposure of stills and footage. Besides testimonies from those who worked on it, the increasing number of stills and production photos help confirm the alternate accounts that the movie was well past the halfway stage with Stoltz. The key difference is that there would be no legal repercussions for revealing so many stills whereas Chow had two problems with GOD - the July 20 narrative being torn to shreds, and distributors complaining about being royally ripped off. Shannon was really young when all this went down (3 going on 4), and she might not have seen all the scenes. Brandon on the other hand... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Josh Baker Posted May 12, 2021 Member Share Posted May 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Cognoscente said: Bruce Lee shooting tons of footage of Tien would explain two things - why the below Golden Movie News spread has Tien's name come before Lee's, and why Tien would ever agree to be in a movie directed by a guy who stole his thunder. It's like Eric Stoltz agreeing to be directed by Michael J. Fox after being replaced on Back to the Future. Speaking of which, BTTF reminds me of GOD because many people believed that Eric only shot a few scenes, but this was because the studio controlled the exposure of stills and footage. Besides testimonies from those who worked on it, the increasing number of stills and production photos help confirm the alternate accounts that the movie was well past the halfway stage with Stoltz. The key difference is that there would be no legal repercussions for revealing so many stills whereas Chow had two problems with GOD - the July 20 narrative being torn to shreds, and distributors complaining about being royally ripped off. Shannon was really young when all this went down (3 going on 4), and she might not have seen all the scenes. Brandon on the other hand... I'm not necessarily talking about first hand accounts by Shannon, but as owner of the Bruce Lee Estate she must have been made aware at some point of how much her father actually shot for GOD. You make a good point surrounding James Tien, I always thought if theyd tried to complete GOD more faithfully in '77, they wouldve either used the scenes we theorised had been shot with Tien or re-shot them. In either case, I can imagine a condition for Tien coming back is to share top billing with Lee, at least in the Asian markets: BRUCE LEE JAMES TIEN "GAME OF DEATH" Your point about BTTF is very interesting too. I think something like that maybe the case here, and if so,it points to Chow lacking motivation for this project and only completing the film for legal reasons, as he must have been aware of the financial opportunities of releasing a film with the credit "Written and Directed by Bruce Lee" as in our scenario, that wouldve actually been the case, with a new director only having to shoot about 30% of additional stuff to complete the film. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Duel to the Death Posted May 12, 2021 Member Share Posted May 12, 2021 On 2/27/2018 at 2:32 PM, DragonClaws said: How long is the chain on those nunchaku? 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member DragonClaws Posted May 13, 2021 Author Member Share Posted May 13, 2021 On 5/12/2021 at 10:48 AM, Cognoscente said: Bruce Lee shooting tons of footage of Tien would explain two things - why the below Golden Movie News spread has Tien's name come before Lee's, and why Tien would ever agree to be in a movie directed by a guy who stole his thunder. Good point, was it only James Tien who appears alongside Kareem Abdul Jabbar & Bruce Lee in the 1972 G.O.D promo film?. Or was Chieh Yuens character represented aswell?. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member shukocarl1441996347 Posted May 13, 2021 Member Share Posted May 13, 2021 On 5/12/2021 at 8:03 PM, Josh Baker said: I'm not necessarily talking about first hand accounts by Shannon, but as owner of the Bruce Lee Estate she must have been made aware at some point of how much her father actually shot for GOD. You make a good point surrounding James Tien, I always thought if theyd tried to complete GOD more faithfully in '77, they wouldve either used the scenes we theorised had been shot with Tien or re-shot them. In either case, I can imagine a condition for Tien coming back is to share top billing with Lee, at least in the Asian markets: BRUCE LEE JAMES TIEN "GAME OF DEATH" Your point about BTTF is very interesting too. I think something like that maybe the case here, and if so,it points to Chow lacking motivation for this project and only completing the film for legal reasons, as he must have been aware of the financial opportunities of releasing a film with the credit "Written and Directed by Bruce Lee" as in our scenario, that wouldve actually been the case, with a new director only having to shoot about 30% of additional stuff to complete the film. I think you have to shoot at least 60% of the film to get the directors credit. Richard Lester had to re-shoot a lot of stuff shot by Richard Donner already on Superman II. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Cognoscente Posted May 14, 2021 Member Share Posted May 14, 2021 It's too bad that this rule doesn't apply to HK cinema. Look at Moon Warriors, Sammo was given sole credit despite most of the directing being carried out by Alex Law and Mabel Cheung. It's too bad that James wasn't brought back to finish GOD. When Golden Harvest decided to finish it, James was already one of Sammo's collaborators i.e. having been choreographed by him in The Hand of Death (circa 1975), The Shaolin Plot (circa 1976) and The Iron Fisted Monk (circa 1977). Interestingly, the last film that James did for GH was released in the same month as GOD - Naked Comes the Huntress. After leaving GH, James started working for Lo Wei's company as a regular player. When I did a collaboration search on HKMDB, I noticed that Sammo and James got to work with each other fairly consistently from 1969 to 1971, but they did nothing together in 1972 and 1973. Most of the martial arts films that James did in those two years were ones directed by Lo Wei, with Han Ying-Chieh as the choreographer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Josh Baker Posted May 14, 2021 Member Share Posted May 14, 2021 13 hours ago, shukocarl1441996347 said: I think you have to shoot at least 60% of the film to get the directors credit. Richard Lester had to re-shoot a lot of stuff shot by Richard Donner already on Superman II. Yeah that's the example I was thinking about when i was writing that haha. According to Lam Ching Ying, Bruce did shoot 60% of the film? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Cognoscente Posted May 14, 2021 Member Share Posted May 14, 2021 Reading between the lines, it seems like GH deliberately held back on the footage so that they could capitalize on Robert Clouse's connection as the ETD director. Clouse was, after all, told that he should use as little footage as possible from the original movie. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Josh Baker Posted May 14, 2021 Member Share Posted May 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Cognoscente said: Reading between the lines, it seems like GH deliberately held back on the footage so that they could capitalize on Robert Clouse's connection as the ETD director. Clouse was, after all, told that he should use as little footage as possible from the original movie. He was told that? I thought that was Robert Clouses decision because he apparently 'didnt like' the footage that Bruce shot (my mind cant really comprehend that) and GH caved in to his decision, because of the ETD connection you just mentioned, and because as we both worked out Chows heart wasnt really in the project, so Clouse could do whatever 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Cognoscente Posted May 14, 2021 Member Share Posted May 14, 2021 I'm basing it on what Bey Logan said in the GOD commentary. I can't imagine GH wanting to cave in to Clouse's demand. After all, it was really their motive to exploit the remaining footage, and it was their movie - right down to the Jan Spears writing credit (I never understood why Clouse would use a pseudonym for the writing when he could easily have done the same for some of his later movies). Either way, Clouse was jealous, and agreed to the decision to cut down on Bruce's vision because it would only prove who the real driving force of ETD was. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Josh Baker Posted May 14, 2021 Member Share Posted May 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Cognoscente said: I'm basing it on what Bey Logan said in the GOD commentary. I can't imagine GH wanting to cave in to Clouse's demand. After all, it was really their motive to exploit the remaining footage, and it was their movie - right down to the Jan Spears writing credit (I never understood why Clouse would use a pseudonym for the writing when he could easily have done the same for some of his later movies). Either way, Clouse was jealous, and agreed to the decision to cut down on Bruce's vision because it would only prove who the real driving force of ETD was. Yes that's a very good point- although it ended up proving the latter😂 Sammo Hung did such a good job emulating the style of choreography Bruce employed (especially in the locker room fight) I bet in retrospect Chow must've kicked himself not letting Hung oversee the entire project. Tbh I wouldnt have been against GOD2 essentially trying GOD again, but more faithfully attempting to complete Lee's original vision. Ng See Yuen had been promised more pagoda footage for the directing job on GOD,and James Tien still looked more or less how he did in 1979/80 how he did in 1972, so it wouldnt be that hard to just try again with GOD with Ng See Yuen and Sammo Hung as the directors. they could market all the pagoda stuff that was cut out of the 78 version as essentially new unseen Lee footage. Considering VHS hadnt boomed yet it would be quite easy to have swept under the carpet Clouses version in favour of this new version that featured more Lee footage. In terms of the Chieh Yuan dilemma- my solution would be to have Fung Hak On essentially take over the role in new scenes- he sort of looked like Chieh Yuan, and by drastically cut back his role to the bare minimum for it to make sense in newly shot sequences, and avoid shooting him in close ups, I bet 99% of the Western audience wouldnt tell the difference, especially considering he is a supporting character and the audience would be paying more attention to Bruce than the Chieh Yuan character. It also wouldve been a nice historical oddity to have GOD be the only actual Bruce Lee film released in the 1980s. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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