Unpopular opinion thread

[DiP]

6 hours ago, Drunken Monk said:

I'm willing to agree to an extent. I just feel that Jackie and Sammo's stuff had some distinct versatility. I don't always feel the same about Donnie's MMA stuff. This isn't to say I don't like the fight scenes in Flashpoint, SPL, Special ID and Raging Fire. I do. A lot. I just prefer when Donnie goes a different route. His work in other films is much more preferable to me.

And I do understand the nuances of Donnie's choreography. He switches things up enough for fights to not be boring. But I do think he leans too heavily on tiresome grappling and other such moves.

But hey, to each his own.

On the whole, Donnie's doing more than just MMA stuff in his contemporary movies. In recent years, he's adding different things into his moderns that feels less MMA-ish compared to when he first started out in the mid 2000s, when he emphasized more on that stuff. From The Twins Effect to Raging Fire, you can see significant differences in what he shows, and to which purposes. To say that he does the same things over and over now just because he still injects MMA elements is a bold statement. Jackie and Sammo was more or less the same with their styles switching things up to be interesting to watch. For me, Sammo's style peaked in 1991, and Jackie's in 1994. Then it all became repetitive and less distinct.

 

5 hours ago, legendarycurry said:

I don't agree with you necessarily, and there is an excellent chance that I might have been unclear in some of my usage of words and explanations, but the main point was certainly not to bash on individuality of an artist's expression as an action choreographer (If that is how it came across).

For me there is a distinction between having a style all your own ,or something that is your "thing" as an action choreographer if you will such as: Ching Siu Tung's expertise in Wire-Fu and often kinetic but unrealistic action., Sammo's emphasis on impact and proficiency as a Wing Chun choreographer, Donnie's MMA focus, etc etc, and being self-referential.

There is ( to me) a distinction between having your "thing",  your unique stamp on a product so to speak, and to uses crutches ( Things you need to get by in the flow of choreography) and to be self-referential ( reoccurring elements from your prior work). So, to break it down there are three things here "at play":

Unique personal style, crutches, and Self-referential content.

Let's use John Woo as an example to illustrate all 3: Unique personal touch: Often, but not always, tales of brotherhood with shades of homo-eroticism and heavily stylized violence.

Crutches:(one example) Christian symbolism. these elements feel like they are, though probably more meaningful to the creator than to us, (mileage may vary) things he keeps throwing in when he needs to spice up a scene or an easy way to add symbolism to something that just happened or is about to happen.

Self-referential aspects: Most of his visuals are self-referential, the ever present doves, the dual wielding, for example

Perhaps the greatest example of self-referential behavior from Woo is MI2. In it, every john Woo associated thing is utilized to such a point that it is more a greatest hits compilation/John Woo bingo card than an actual film by John Woo

I may be out of my depth, and you are fully free to disagree with all this, but I did get the impression I was misunderstood and that clarification was needed here.


I should have specified that I wasn't referring to chain punching in Yip Man 2, but to a specific series of exchanges in the Sammo vs Donnie fight. that, though most likely meant to represent rapid punches, due to techniques (cinematic ones) looks like a flail-o-rama.

The discussion about the use of differentiating quirks to incite audiences was more so a bit of a tangent spun off the whole "why does Donnie do Bruce Lee mannerisms in his films" thing. He explains it better than me in that HKL interview.

Fair enough. It did come across as if though you came to criticize Donnie's choreography because you did say that you thought he was overrated as a choreographer in that other thread. I agree though, every actor that action directs or director has their trademarks and their habit of reusing stuff from previous work. It's all natural.

However, I have to point out something. When it comes to Donnie's work as an action director some people are quick to criticize him for doing whatever he comes up with, but are as quick to turn a blind eye when it comes to the Peking Opera guys. I get it. the 80s style which came to be so appreciated even to this day is no longer being done. And Donnie does the exact opposite of what was done back then. People are still stuck, and want that style to be the norm. Which begs the question... Do we really want to see the same thing over and over forever? 

 

4 hours ago, dionbrother said:

Was referring to Donnie Yen's interview with me in 1996.  He dismissed the Yuen Woo Ping stuff and even IRON MONKEY(he had no idea it was popular cult hit among fanatics in the US.  To him, it bombed in Asia and that was that).  Unknown to me at the time: Donnie was considering giving up on acting and aiming to be a fight choreographer, hoping to work with Seagal or Van Damme.  Different time for the business back then.  

Also I asked him if he'd seen the UFC, and he'd never heard of it.  Obviously that changed later on.

I read that 96 interview. Yes, he did say some harsh things about Woo Ping and his work. But take into account that he said that in a manner of comparing his own work to Woo Ping's as a way to promote and interest people, and not by disrespecting Woo Ping in general. Because years later, when he went to Hollywood and after returning to Hong Kong, he still credited Woo Ping as the one responsible for bringing him into the HK show biz. He could've chosen different words to put it but in the end of the day, that's how he was: Honest and daring. I don't see how else he could've said things to promote his stuff. Like I said, I don't believe in praising competition while giving yourself a bad look for trying to sell your products to customers.

[legendarycurry]

11 minutes ago, DiP said:

Fair enough. It did come across as if though you came to criticize Donnie's choreography because you did say that you thought he was overrated as a choreographer in that other thread.

Oh, I mean it was criticism aimed at his choreography technically ,Which I still think is overrated. But he isn't the only one that does things worth criticizing. He does however (In my opinion) have periods where his choreography uses certain things excessively (like under-cranking in the 90's for example, the hand flailing) and Reoccurring things that are less style-defying and more crutches, something which I feel warrants criticism,not least of all in a thread meant to be a safe space where we can say unpopular and potentially controversial things

I think I understand where you stand: You think Donnie is criticized more than the 7 little fortunes and co, while you also feel like the fandom let's things slip when it comes to the Peking Opera trained people when they don't always deliver or are responsible for things like "crutches" and repeated choreography flourishes themselves. I honestly can't say that I agree.

I've always been of the mind that you especially criticize what you care about, because you truly believe in their (the action choreographer you like in this case) capability for better results. I'm honestly harder on Sammo than any other action choreographer in the world probably for example, despite him being my fave.

Sammo and Donnie are both in the top five most award winning choreographers at the Hong Kong film awards, in fact if one counts Donnie as a co-choreographer on the Yip Man films and Bodyguards and Assassins (He is credited for Bodyguards on HKMDB), which come on, you can see that he was involved in Yip Man 2, and I doubt he could keep from putting some stuff here and there into the first film, and when he works with Yuen we know from the past that it is a collaboration.

Adding all that up as additional wins on top of his already impressive 4 wins (8 nominations) would make him number one with 9 wins (8 nominations) that means that means that nearly half of everything he has worked on in his career in action design has either led to an award or a nomination for one. And I am not even counting iron Monkey or including Golden Horse Awards in this assessment. (if my math checks out) that is several more than JC stunt team and basically means that the dude is highly regarded and awarded.

So if we accept that, then Donnie is the number one most award winning Hong Kong action choreographer (at least at the HK film awards), surely that should make him susceptible to more criticism and not less than his colleagues?

I respect your opinion even if I don't fully share it is the TLDR of this whole thing I guess, and opinions are like copies of dragons forever everyone has at least one, and that's good remember what i say is just my opinion and I don't claim my opinion as fact, it's just how I feel

Sidenote: Witch from Nepal (1986) beat out Righting Wrongs, Royal Warriors, Peking Opera Blues, Martial Arts Of Shaolin and Twinkle Twinkle Lucky Stars at the 6th annual awards. Conclusion: WTF!?

Also, Dead and the Deadly was nominated twice two years back to back with different nominees on the ballot for each of the years. That is something I wanna hear about on an audio commentary from Frank Djeng or something. what happened there?

[Cognoscente]

3 hours ago, legendarycurry said:

Sidenote: Witch from Nepal (1986) beat out Righting Wrongs, Royal Warriors, Peking Opera Blues, Martial Arts Of Shaolin and Twinkle Twinkle Lucky Stars at the 6th annual awards. Conclusion: WTF!?

Strange. You'd think it would have been A Better Tomorrow at least.

Considering that Armour of God was shown in Japan in the summer of 1986, it could have been released in HK at the same time to apply for the 6th ceremony (which was held in April 1987). Instead, it was released in January 1987. Righting Wrongs was released in November 1986, so it wasn't too late for Jackie's movie to be a contender...unless Golden Harvest thought that his movie wasn't up to snuff due to Jackie's accident.

[legendarycurry]

12 minutes ago, Cognoscente said:

Strange. You'd think it would have been A Better Tomorrow at least.

Considering that Armour of God was shown in Japan in the summer of 1986, it could have been released in HK at the same time to apply for the 6th ceremony (which was held in April 1987). Instead, it was released in January 1987. Righting Wrongs was released in November 1986, so it wasn't too late for Jackie's movie to be a contender...unless Golden Harvest thought that his movie wasn't up to snuff due to Jackie's accident.

It was nominated the following year where JC Stunt Team lost to itself (Project A 2 won). That same year Better Tomorrow 2 was nominated too. I would have given it to fellow nominee Eastern Condors personally. All films that year were worthy of nomination though (Chinese Ghost Story among them as well) But I have no idea what film Hoi Si Jan Lau is, but I am familiar with Tsui Siu Ming who got nominated for it.

 

[DrNgor]

5 hours ago, legendarycurry said:

So if we accept that, then Donnie is the number one most award winning Hong Kong action choreographer (at least at the HK film awards), surely that should make him susceptible to more criticism and not less than his colleagues?

Yes and no. He only started winning in 2006, when Jackie Chan, Jet Li and the industry as a whole was winding down. He has shouldered the genre as whole on his shoulders--not completely, but a fair share of it--for the past 20 years. I don't think one should be too critical of him.

5 hours ago, legendarycurry said:

Also, Dead and the Deadly was nominated twice two years back to back with different nominees on the ballot for each of the years. That is something I wanna hear about on an audio commentary from Frank Djeng or something. what happened there?

The second "nomination" was a clerical error at the site and the actual nominee was Hocus Pocus.

1 hour ago, legendarycurry said:

But I have no idea what film Hoi Si Jan Lau is, but I am familiar with Tsui Siu Ming who got nominated for it.

 

[PandaPawPaw]

Jet Li should of battered Riggs/Murtaugh and killed everyone in Lethal Weapon 4! He was such a cool silent(-ish) villain.

Why can't we be friends

Why can't we be friends

Why can't we be friends

Why can't we be friends

Because you're all dead Muwhahahahaha! Long live Jet Li!

[J.J. Hayden]

10 minutes ago, PandaPawPaw said:

Jet Li should of battered Riggs/Murtaugh and killed everyone in Lethal Weapon 4! He was such a cool silent(-ish) villain.

You've put this in the wrong thread, this is "unpopular opinions", LOL.

I think most would agree with you here. I certainly do, there's not much of value in LW4, except Jet and a few of the stunt guys such as Simon Rhee.

[PandaPawPaw]

I wasn't sure how popular Riggs/Murtaugh are as they seem to be a well liked duo but I am posting on a MA forum so I should of guessed Jet would probably win by a land slide.

GOD2 is a fun film and a guilty pleasure of mine but for some reason the Tiger fight freaks me out for some reason. It's kind of creepy.

I was watching Operation Condor the other day and got tired of the fighting near the end. It just goes on and on. I've never felt that way before watching this movie.

[HeavenSword]

Despite being a typical warehouse setting   ,as far as fighting goes  I think the Heart Of The Dragon finale is better than Police Story and features Jackie at his most savage . Especially when he goes at it with James Tien and Dick Wei.

[Jizzmaster Jerry]

14 minutes ago, HeavenSword said:

Despite being a typical warehouse setting   ,as far as fighting goes  I think the Heart Of The Dragon finale is better than Police Story and features Jackie at his most savage . Especially when he goes at it with James Tien and Dick Wei.

Yup.  Stunts are great, but I’m way more into a really good fight.  And Dick Wei was relentless.  Not an easy fight for Jackie.  

[NinjaX]

I don't like Fist Of Legend. There's something about Jet Li that i don't like, but i'm not quite sure what it is.

[J.J. Hayden]

1 hour ago, NinjaX said:

There's something about Jet Li that i don't like, but i'm not quite sure what it is.

Could it be because he's a Wushu guy and he seems quite stiff trying to do the Bruce-esque style?

Edited January 3, 2023 by J.J. Hayden

[NinjaX]

It could be that.  It just didn't seem to quite fit.

[Cognoscente]

He does seem overly formal and mechanical in the film.

[DiP]

Despite enjoying his contemporary movies more than his periodic ones, I've always felt that Jet's adaptation of modern fighting styles was a hit-and-miss.

Whenever he let that taolu-flashiness loose alot (The Master, The Bodyguard From Beijing, My Father is a Hero), it looks really weird (not necessarily bad). Then we have him execute modern movements appropriately in movies like Kiss of the Dragon, Cradle 2 the Grave, Unleashed. If he just forgave that taolu thing in his moderns more, I would've liked things much more.

[thekfc]

Donnie Yen's most "enjoyable" opponent was Michael Woods.

These two best friends had a certain charisma working together & at the same time was having fun while kicking each others butt.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

Interesting article, bound to offend, but it is true....

https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/

 

[Eric Jacobus]

Bruce didn't study high kicks until he came to America. Here's my analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QlYP4IfyqU

[Super Ninja]

22 hours ago, Eric Jacobus said:

Bruce didn't study high kicks until he came to America. Here's my analysis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QlYP4IfyqU

Good to have you here @Eric Jacobus, love your essays.

[J.J. Hayden]

11 minutes ago, Super Ninja said:

Good to have you here @Eric Jacobus, love your essays.

Ah yes, I knew the name was familiar.

Cheers @Eric Jacobus

[danthemandmv]

Waelcome , @Eric Jacobus !

[PandaPawPaw]

Salma Hayek is fucking annoying and can't act. Yeah she has big boobs that look really nice and are huge and...........................but she really plays the same character almost all the time!

Watching Black Mirror ep1 and her acting is awful! What happened to her voice as it's kind of screechy too.

I can't believe I'm saying this but can't she do anything these days that doesn't involve her boobs? We get it you've got big ones but you can't act!

I had to rant as she annoys me these days!

[legendarycurry]

42 minutes ago, PandaPawPaw said:

Salma Hayek is fucking annoying and can't act. Yeah she has big boobs that look really nice and are huge and...........................but she really plays the same character almost all the time!

Watching Black Mirror ep1 and her acting is awful! What happened to her voice as it's kind of screechy too.

I can't believe I'm saying this but can't she do anything these days that doesn't involve her boobs? We get it you've got big ones but you can't act!

I had to rant as she annoys me these days!

I'm sorry, but this made me legit laugh out loud. I'm not hating on you @PandaPawPaw, but this post in the "General Martial Arts Discussion-Unpopular Opinion Thread", a thread where people be like " Fist of Fury had some silly things" or " Yuen Woo Ping has peaked"  now has a " Big boobie Salma Hayek bad, only shows boobie!" post. 

[PandaPawPaw]

1 hour ago, legendarycurry said:

I'm sorry, but this made me legit laugh out loud. I'm not hating on you @PandaPawPaw, but this post in the "General Martial Arts Discussion-Unpopular Opinion Thread", a thread where people be like " Fist of Fury had some silly things" or " Yuen Woo Ping has peaked"  now has a " Big boobie Salma Hayek bad, only shows boobie!" post. 

LOL I actually forgot about where I was posting it in my rage about Salma's boobs.

But she was in a movie called Here Comes the Boom (thanks google) that was about MMA so I'm not really all that wrong to post here............I guess..............

PSA: I do not dislike the boobie. Infact the earth we live on is one giant boob.

Edited June 16, 2023 by PandaPawPaw

[HeavenSword]

Amazing stunts , but the actual fight choreography in Police Story 3: Supercop is average at best . 

 

The Stephen Chow cameo in Gorgeous (1999) wasnt THAT funny .

 

Honestly, I thought Cheung Kwok Leung had the best fights in the Tiger Cage series. Dude was nice ! Are there anymore movies with him as the lead or showing off some moves ?

 

Maggie Cheung feels very  out of place in The Seventh Curse.