Unpopular opinion thread

[legendarycurry]

On 4/25/2022 at 12:32 AM, HeavenSword said:

Tiger On The Beat 2 is better than the first one

Fascinating! I've only seen the first one which was far from a favorite, But I do wanna see this still because I feel like Conan Lee's failed stunt (which I have watched a lot on the old tube) makes it required viewing alone.

[Cognoscente]

2 hours ago, DiP said:

I would've agreed with this statement 3 decades ago but not now. Woo Ping hasn't evolved since the mid 2000s, and has since then gone through the motion repeating his choreography more or less. The last two Ip Man movies are good, and pretty much the only noteworthy work from him as of late. But even those are peanuts compared to Donnie action directing output between 2005 and now. Donnie has evolved to the point that he can create on his own.

I think that Woo-Ping should go back to what he does best: Taoist Kung Fu. His imagination peaked with The Miracle Fighters and Shaolin Drunkard.

[ShaOW!linDude]

12 hours ago, legendarycurry said:

Ohh I love Armor of God and I really wanna see Seventh Curse! 

I believe I remember coming across Seventh Curse on Tubi this weekend. You might look for it there if you have access to their streaming service.

[legendarycurry]

57 minutes ago, ShaOW!linDude said:

I believe I remember coming across Seventh Curse on Tubi this weekend. You might look for it there if you have access to their streaming service.

Thanks for the heads-up! Unfortunately Tubi is not available from my location I have been in contact with an established forum member in regards to buying the 88 films blu off of them in the near future. Hopefully it comes to fruition!

[Drunken Monk]

3 hours ago, DiP said:

But even those are peanuts compared to Donnie action directing output between 2005 and now. Donnie has evolved to the point that he can create on his own.

Personally, I think Donnie's MMA-style of choreography is a bit one note. Sure, it looks good but a lot of it is the same shit over and over. I must prefer his fight choreography in films like Kung Fu Jungle, Wu Xia and The Lost Bladesman.

As for Woo Ping, I still thoroughly enjoy his work (loved Master Z) but I can see how you might thing he hasn't evolved. But when it looks as good as The Grandmaster, Once Upon a Time in Shanghai and Man of Tai Chi, you won't catch me complaining.

[legendarycurry]

13 minutes ago, Drunken Monk said:

Personally, I think Donnie's MMA-style of choreography is a bit one note. Sure, it looks good but a lot of it is the same shit over and over. I must prefer his fight choreography in films like Kung Fu Jungle, Wu Xia and The Lost Bladesman.

As for Woo Ping, I still thoroughly enjoy his work (loved Master Z) but I can see how you might thing he hasn't evolved. But when it looks as good as The Grandmaster, Once Upon a Time in Shanghai and Man of Tai Chi, you won't catch me complaining.

This is what i mean when I say "Overly self-referential" he basically has his bits and pieces, his "old reliables" that he keeps falling back on ( he is not the only action director to do this, or director as they often reuse themes for example). This makes what was once fresh seem somewhat samey and dull in the long run.

In the 90's his crutches were excessively under-cranked hand flailing and loops of sound effects, used when he ran out of ideas for shapes or punch/kick combos. He also has his jumping split kick and other recurring kicks (But which kicking ability blessed martial artist doesn't) and what I call "Bruce Lee aping" (Fist of Fury TV series, Shanghai Affairs, Return of Chen Zen etc) which he sort of  himself said (not in so many words) is a way to add flavor.

He mentions in an interview (HKL interview ITLOD4) this:  What he basically said (from memory) was that he doesn't (or didn't more like these days, dude is rich now) have Sammo or Jackie money, so him and his crew have to rely on gimmicks or stuff that draw people in (such as John Salvitti's unconventional fighting style, the Sugar Ray boxing stuff Donnie does, and some grappling from Woods, all examples from ITLOD 4)

His next crutch came after the release of SPL. SPL had the usual kicking stuff and it did have some flailing (mostly with batons) but overall it was some of Donnie's best work to date as a solo choreographer. However, the "takedown" MMA style became a crutch (you can call it a calling card if you are offended I guess) It was reused in stuff like Flashpoint, Special iD and is still used today as late as the Raging Fire

The hand-flailing clutch can be seen as late as Yip Man 2, used due to Sammo's injury and him not being able to perform to the best of his ability. Now, it is entirely possible that this was Sammo 's (The main credited action director) choice, but it felt very Donnie.

I know that he on more than one occasion has done/included the "crack someone's palm with your thumb" move, and in stuff he directs himself he likes shots of limbs or feet hitting the face or body in tight close up: example: we see him jump and stretch out his leg for a kick to the face, cut to foot hitting chin etc.

These are a few examples from just one specific choreographer that I think really fits the bill for being too self-referential. I haven't seen all of his choreographed work, it is possible he has evolved or found more variation at this point in his career. I kinda stopped actively following HK Cinema releases in 2017-ish, mostly watching stuff I know I love or watching older stuff I haven't seen yet.

Yuen Woo Ping is legendary for a reason, but stuff like Master Z and CTHD2 were some of his tamest stuff career-wise and though I'm glad he is still working, it is OK to let new people in to the club so to speak.

[dionbrother]

4 hours ago, DiP said:

I would've agreed with this statement 3 decades ago but not now. Woo Ping hasn't evolved since the mid 2000s, and has since then gone through the motion repeating his choreography more or less. The last two Ip Man movies are good, and pretty much the only noteworthy work from him as of late. But even those are peanuts compared to Donnie action directing output between 2005 and now. Donnie has evolved to the point that he can create on his own.

Woo Ping is now a very old man.  He's kinda done creatively(TRUE LEGEND is really a greatest hits package).  But in the early Donnie days, Woo Ping did wonders for him.  Well enough that Donnie dismissed Woo Ping's work to me("Those are ok"), claiming his own choreography was better(Keep in mind, this was the HIGH VOLTAGE/FIST OF FURY era tv show Donnie).

[HeavenSword]

4 hours ago, legendarycurry said:

Fascinating! I've only seen the first one which was far from a favorite, But I do wanna see this still because I feel like Conan Lee's failed stunt (which I have watched a lot on the old tube) makes it required viewing alone.

Yes, you should check this one out . Fights are better In this one in my opinion, Conan fights barefoot on broken glass in the finale! 

[legendarycurry]

11 minutes ago, dionbrother said:

Woo Ping is now a very old man.  He's kinda done creatively(TRUE LEGEND is really a greatest hits package).  But in the early Donnie days, Woo Ping did wonders for him.  Well enough that Donnie dismissed Woo Ping's work to me("Those are ok"), claiming his own choreography was better(Keep in mind, this was the HIGH VOLTAGE/FIST OF FURY era tv show Donnie).

He has also said stuff like "I would watch what others were doing and think I can do it better" about stuff from the good old days, Humble pie is not Donnie's favorite dish, or at least it wasn't at the time

[legendarycurry]

Just now, HeavenSword said:

Yes, you should check this one out . Fights are better In this one in my opinion, Conan fights barefoot on broken glass in the finale! 

Gives me Burning Ambition vibes, which is a positive!

[DiP]

1 hour ago, Drunken Monk said:

Personally, I think Donnie's MMA-style of choreography is a bit one note. Sure, it looks good but a lot of it is the same shit over and over.

I could argue the same thing with Jackie and Sammo with their "environment/situational", and "stiff, rapid-paced kick-punch" styles respectively. That style was so good for its' time and still leaves a great impact. Whenever people attempt it today though, it looks overdone and washed due to action directors over-emphasizing the movements and all details. 

Action choreography these days have evolved so much, and the trends now lean more toward real combat/realism so Donnie's choreography is perfect for that. On paper, the MMA stuff may be the same stuff over and over, that people "supposedly" just grapple and stay rolling on the ground for several minutes straight. But there's more than that if you're willing to pay close attention, and give it a chance. A mixture of everything, actually.

[Cognoscente]

33 minutes ago, legendarycurry said:

He has also said stuff like "I would watch what others were doing and think I can do it better" about stuff from the good old days, Humble pie is not Donnie's favorite dish, or at least it wasn't at the time

I would have loved to have seen Donnie do a movie with equally egotistical stars - Conan Lee and Billy Chong.

 

31 minutes ago, legendarycurry said:

Gives me Burning Ambition vibes, which is a positive!

Die Hard made one Hell of an impact with the barefoot on glass gag.

 

6 minutes ago, DiP said:

I could argue the same thing with Jackie and Sammo with their "environment/situational", and "stiff, rapid-paced kick-punch" styles respectively.

I noticed that Sammo had a trademark move that he did too often - someone tries to kick him, he grabs their leg and then he trips their standing leg.

[legendarycurry]

2 minutes ago, Cognoscente said:

I would have loved to have seen Donnie do a movie with equally egotistical stars - Conan Lee and Billy Chong

Saddens me to read this about Billy, He seems like such a chill dude and had such a likeable screen presence.

Unrelated but how do you quote multiple parts from a thread again? I done forgot. It sure would prevent me from overposting if I knew how to do it

[legendarycurry]

14 minutes ago, Cognoscente said:

Die Hard made one Hell of an impact with the barefoot on glass gag

I saw Bamboo House Of Dolls (1973) recently and it had a (non-action) scene where a Japanese baddie throws glass on the floor of a room with a blind girl in it, and she walks on the glass (at least i think it was the blind character) and runs on it running to get away from him. 

John McTiernan mentions in his autobiography "A Hard Life: the Life And Films of John McTiernan" that Bamboo House Of Dolls was a huge inspiration for Die Hard (The Japanese general in Bamboo is called Nakatomi even!)



Everything starting with the name "John" and onward in the above text is stuff I made up. Sounds like it could be true though right?

Thank you for your time.

[Drunken Monk]

32 minutes ago, DiP said:

I could argue the same thing with Jackie and Sammo with their "environment/situational", and "stiff, rapid-paced kick-punch" styles respectively. That style was so good for its' time and still leaves a great impact. Whenever people attempt it today though, it looks overdone and washed due to action directors over-emphasizing the movements and all details. 

Action choreography these days have evolved so much, and the trends now lean more toward real combat/realism so Donnie's choreography is perfect for that. On paper, the MMA stuff may be the same stuff over and over, that people "supposedly" just grapple and stay rolling on the ground for several minutes straight. But there's more than that if you're willing to pay close attention, and give it a chance. A mixture of everything, actually.

I'm willing to agree to an extent. I just feel that Jackie and Sammo's stuff had some distinct versatility. I don't always feel the same about Donnie's MMA stuff. This isn't to say I don't like the fight scenes in Flashpoint, SPL, Special ID and Raging Fire. I do. A lot. I just prefer when Donnie goes a different route. His work in other films is much more preferable to me.

And I do understand the nuances of Donnie's choreography. He switches things up enough for fights to not be boring. But I do think he leans too heavily on tiresome grappling and other such moves.

But hey, to each his own.

[Cognoscente]

26 minutes ago, legendarycurry said:

Saddens me to read this about Billy, He seems like such a chill dude and had such a likeable screen presence.

Unrelated but how do you quote multiple parts from a thread again? I done forgot. It sure would prevent me from overposting if I knew how to do it

Press the plus button on a person's post.

[legendarycurry]

1 minute ago, Cognoscente said:

Press the plus button on a person's post.

Thank you!

[legendarycurry]

9 minutes ago, Drunken Monk said:

I'm willing to agree to an extent. I just feel that Jackie and Sammo's stuff had some distinct versatility. I don't always feel the same about Donnie's MMA stuff. This isn't to say I don't like the fight scenes in Flashpoint, SPL, Special ID and Raging Fire. I do. A lot. I just prefer when Donnie goes a different route. His work in other films is much more preferable to me.

And I do understand the nuances of Donnie's choreography. He switches things up enough for fights to not be boring. But I do think he leans too heavily on tiresome grappling and other such moves.

But hey, to each his own.

I wish he would have done what he said he was going to do in the ITLOD4 HKL interview: Go back to a more traditional Shaw Brothers style. Instead we got MMA, which isn't bad, but fairly far from Lau Kar Leung so to speak.

[DiP]

1 hour ago, legendarycurry said:

This is what i mean when I say "Overly self-referential" he basically has his bits and pieces, his "old reliables" that he keeps falling back on ( he is not the only action director to do this, or director as they often reuse themes for example). This makes what was once fresh seem somewhat samey and dull in the long run.

In the 90's his crutches were excessively under-cranked hand flailing and loops of sound effects, used when he ran out of ideas for shapes or punch/kick combos. He also has his jumping split kick and other recurring kicks (But which kicking ability blesseandd martial artist doesn't) and what I call "Bruce Lee aping" (Fist of Fury TV series, Shanghai Affairs, Return of Chen Zen etc) which he sort of  himself said (not in so many words) is a way to add flavor.

He mentions in an interview (HKL interview ITLOD4) this:  What he basically said (from memory) was that he doesn't (or didn't more like these days, dude is rich now) have Sammo or Jackie money, so him and his crew have to rely on gimmicks or stuff that draw people in (such as John Salvitti's unconventional fighting style, the Sugar Ray boxing stuff Donnie does, and some grappling from Woods, all examples from ITLOD 4)

His next crutch came after the release of SPL. SPL had the usual kicking stuff and it did have some flailing (mostly with batons) but overall it was some of Donnie's best work to date as a solo choreographer. However, the "takedown" MMA style became a crutch (you can call it a calling card if you are offended I guess) It was reused in stuff like Flashpoint, Special iD and is still used today as late as the Raging Fire

The hand-flailing clutch can be seen as late as Yip Man 2, used due to Sammo's injury and him not being able to perform to the best of his ability. Now, it is entirely possible that this was Sammo 's (The main credited action director) choice, but it felt very Donnie.

I know that he on more than one occasion has done/included the "crack someone's palm with your thumb" move, and in stuff he directs himself he likes shots of limbs or feet hitting the face or body in tight close up: example: we see him jump and stretch out his leg for a kick to the face, cut to foot hitting chin etc.

These are a few examples from just one specific choreographer that I think really fits the bill for being too self-referential. I haven't seen all of his choreographed work, it is possible he has evolved or found more variation at this point in his career. I kinda stopped actively following HK Cinema releases in 2017-ish, mostly watching stuff I know I love or watching older stuff I haven't seen yet.

Yuen Woo Ping is legendary for a reason, but stuff like Master Z and CTHD2 were some of his tamest stuff career-wise and though I'm glad he is still working, it is OK to let new people in to the club so to speak.

These so called "reliables" or being "self-referential" (like you said yourself) is what comprimises an individual style. Individual styles for certain martal arts actors that action directs their movies. Jackie, Sammo, Bill, Donnie etc. By your logic, styles can get redundant and repetitive, and that's something I can feel about Jackie and Sammo's movies. Their classic movies are FILLED with "reliables" and can be "self referential".

The late 90s was a period in which Donnie was experimenting and learning, so it wasn't just hand flailing, certain kicking techniques done, and undercranking being utilized. The way he shot fight scenes, how certain techniques ate executed, use of slomo, way of editing etc. Adding flavor is one way to separate yourself from others. We can only agree to disagree. Taking inspirations from other influental people in real-life, and everything in life transcending these onscreen and creating something new and different is a thing of beauty... That's what art is all about. Creating and evolving your craft, and keep pushing the limits.

Donnie's "takedown" MMA stuff isn't as repetitive as you think it is. I think some people are just focusing on those certain "takedown/ground" moments way too much and go with the vibe generalizing Donnie's fight scenes as a whole to the point that they forget what's actually being shown on the whole. For example, compare the bar fight scene in Special ID and compare that to the final fight scene in Raging Fire... Donnie uses MMA in those scenes but for different purposes and ways. Also, the MMA isn't excessively used and nor does it overtake everything else shown.

The hand flailing in the Ip Man movies are actually called chain punching. Flailing your arms is totally different from punching in rapid fast fashion 😜

You should watch movies like The Lost Blades, Wu Xia, The Monkey King, Kung Fu Jungle, and Chasing The Dragon to see his versatility as action director beyond the contemporary action movies he prefers doing.

Edited November 8, 2022 by DiP

[DiP]

1 hour ago, dionbrother said:

Woo Ping is now a very old man.  He's kinda done creatively(TRUE LEGEND is really a greatest hits package).  But in the early Donnie days, Woo Ping did wonders for him.  Well enough that Donnie dismissed Woo Ping's work to me("Those are ok"), claiming his own choreography was better(Keep in mind, this was the HIGH VOLTAGE/FIST OF FURY era tv show Donnie).

I was referring to Woo Ping's work after the 90s. Creatively, he was already done after Iron Monkey, and I feel it wasn't until he worked on Unleashed that he finally switched up and ventured into new territory. But I believe that had more to do with the material, and the director's influence and requirements in choosing the fighting style for Jet Li's character. Woo Ping went back to his usual routines after that with Fearless, and everything else that followed suit.

I don't think Donnie was dismissing Woo Ping or his (at least, not intentionally) work in those interviews, and never was back then. Remember that Donnie, at the time, was on his own doing and promoting his stuff. As a promoter, you can't say bad stuff about your new work while praising your competition. That would be bad marketing, and putting your own career at risk.

Edited November 8, 2022 by DiP

[Cognoscente]

28 minutes ago, legendarycurry said:

I wish he would have done what he said he was going to do in the ITLOD4 HKL interview: Go back to a more traditional Shaw Brothers style. Instead we got MMA, which isn't bad, but fairly far from Lau Kar Leung so to speak.

I wish he could update the style he showed in Mismatched Couples. Breakdancing Wushu would be fun!

[legendarycurry]

5 minutes ago, DiP said:

These so called "reliables" or being "self-referential" (like you said yourself) is what comprimises an individual style. Individual styles for certain martal arts actors that action directs their movies. Jackie, Sammo, Bill, Donnie etc. By your logic, styles can get redundant and repetitive, and that's something I can feel about Jackie and Sammo's movies. Their classic movies are FILLED with "reliables" and can be "self referential".

The late 90s was a period in which Donnie was experimenting and learning, so it wasn't just hand flailing, certain kicking techniques done, and undercranking being utilized. The way he shot fight scenes, how certain techniques ate executed, use of slomo, way of editing etc. Adding flavor is one way to separate yourself from others. We can only agree to disagree. Taking inspirations from other influental people in real-life, and everything in life transcending these onscreen and creating something new and different is a thing of beauty... That's what art is all about. Creating and evolving your craft, and keep pushing the limits.

Donnie's "takedown" MMA stuff isn't as repetitive as you think it is. I think some people are just focusing on those certain "takedown/ground" moments way too much and go with the vibe generalizing Donnie's fight scenes as a whole to the point that they forget what's actually being shown on the whole. For example, compare the bar fight scene in Special ID and compare that to the final fight scene in Raging Fire... Donnie uses MMA in those scenes but for different purposes and ways. Also, the MMA isn't excessively used and takes over everything else shown.

The hand flailing in the Ip Man movies are actually called chain punching. Flailing your arms is totally different from punching in rapid fast fashion 😜

You should watch movies like The Lost Blades, Wu Xia, The Monkey King, Kung Fu Jungle, and Chasing The Dragon to see his versatility as action director beyond the contemporary action movies he prefers doing.

I don't agree with you necessarily, and there is an excellent chance that I might have been unclear in some of my usage of words and explanations, but the main point was certainly not to bash on individuality of an artist's expression as an action choreographer (If that is how it came across).

For me there is a distinction between having a style all your own ,or something that is your "thing" as an action choreographer if you will such as: Ching Siu Tung's expertise in Wire-Fu and often kinetic but unrealistic action., Sammo's emphasis on impact and proficiency as a Wing Chun choreographer, Donnie's MMA focus, etc etc, and being self-referential.

There is ( to me) a distinction between having your "thing",  your unique stamp on a product so to speak, and to uses crutches ( Things you need to get by in the flow of choreography) and to be self-referential ( reoccurring elements from your prior work). So, to break it down there are three things here "at play":

Unique personal style, crutches, and Self-referential content.

Let's use John Woo as an example to illustrate all 3: Unique personal touch: Often, but not always, tales of brotherhood with shades of homo-eroticism and heavily stylized violence.

Crutches:(one example) Christian symbolism. these elements feel like they are, though probably more meaningful to the creator than to us, (mileage may vary) things he keeps throwing in when he needs to spice up a scene or an easy way to add symbolism to something that just happened or is about to happen.

Self-referential aspects: Most of his visuals are self-referential, the ever present doves, the dual wielding, for example

Perhaps the greatest example of self-referential behavior from Woo is MI2. In it, every john Woo associated thing is utilized to such a point that it is more a greatest hits compilation/John Woo bingo card than an actual film by John Woo

I may be out of my depth, and you are fully free to disagree with all this, but I did get the impression I was misunderstood and that clarification was needed here.


I should have specified that I wasn't referring to chain punching in Yip Man 2, but to a specific series of exchanges in the Sammo vs Donnie fight. that, though most likely meant to represent rapid punches, due to techniques (cinematic ones) looks like a flail-o-rama.

The discussion about the use of differentiating quirks to incite audiences was more so a bit of a tangent spun off the whole "why does Donnie do Bruce Lee mannerisms in his films" thing. He explains it better than me in that HKL interview.

[Omni Dragon]

17 hours ago, legendarycurry said:

I refuse to watch any of the original 3 Lucky stars films without the classic English dubbing (less an opinion more a statement, In usually prefer Cantonese 99% of the time though) Hence why I haven't seen them in so long. gotta get me that collection from 88 or Eureka or whomever.

Eureka.

 

11 hours ago, PandaPawPaw said:

Fist of Fury has some stupid moments. The main one being the rickshaw scene. It's so dumb and out of place. Also the stupid faces BL pulls while eating in front of the camp fire. So annoying.

10 hours ago, legendarycurry said:

It also has the "Katana lands on someone after being tossed in the air and it impales them"  scene.I bet 10 Bison dollars that scene was not Bruce Lee's concept.

The dummies in the dojo fight look kind of bad as well,

 

[legendarycurry]

22 minutes ago, Cognoscente said:

I wish he could update the style he showed in Mismatched Couples. Breakdancing Wushu would be fun!

That would be awesome. Raging Phoenix kinda tried it I guess. I hear Bury me High is very breakdancey, with Chin Kar Lok in it who used to breakdance from what I heard. There is shades of this in Operation Scorpio too

[dionbrother]

1 hour ago, DiP said:

I was referring to Woo Ping's work after the 90s. Creatively, he was already done after Iron Monkey, and I feel it wasn't until he worked on Unleashed that he finally switched up and ventured into new territory. But I believe that had more to do with the material, and the director's influence and requirements in choosing the fighting style for Jet Li's character. Woo Ping went back to his usual routines after that with Fearless, and everything else that followed suit.

I don't think Donnie was dismissing Woo Ping or his (at least, not intentionally) work in those interviews, and never was back then. Remember that Donnie, at the time, was on his own doing and promoting his stuff. As a promoter, you can't say bad stuff about your new work while praising your competition. That would be bad marketing, and putting your own career at risk.

Was referring to Donnie Yen's interview with me in 1996.  He dismissed the Yuen Woo Ping stuff and even IRON MONKEY(he had no idea it was popular cult hit among fanatics in the US.  To him, it bombed in Asia and that was that).  Unknown to me at the time: Donnie was considering giving up on acting and aiming to be a fight choreographer, hoping to work with Seagal or Van Damme.  Different time for the business back then.  

Also I asked him if he'd seen the UFC, and he'd never heard of it.  Obviously that changed later on.