The Assassin vs Return of the One Armed Swordsman

[Iron_Leopard]

I watched both of these movies for the first time this week.

Both movies feature a similar plot. An old man seeking out a retired master Swordsman for help. Both films are thought of highly.

Which film do you prefer?

 

Also. Had no idea Changs future tag team was in "Return". They were both so young I barely recognized them.

And the English dub on "Return" was brutal. Could barely understand several characters in this movie. But the worse one was the voice actor for the old man who first visits Fang for help. Worst English I've ever heard. Almost couldnt finish the movie because of him it was so annoying.

Edit: Only watched English dub cause that's all Amazon Video provides. 

[AgriWuxia]

Interesting choice for a thread topic @Iron_Leopard. I believe that Wang Yu and Chiao Chiao starred in three films for Chang Cheh in 1967, in broadly similar roles : One Armed Swordsman, The Assassin, and Trail of the Broken Blade. Return of the One Armed Swordsman  continued the association into 1969.  It has been a while since I last watched any of these titles, so I hope my memory doesn't let me down!

In answer to your question, I believe The Assassin  has the stronger dramatic impact and a greater depth to the story. For the focus is on the internal  forces (tradition/filial duty) constraining swordsman Nie Zheng as he struggles to find meaning in his life; to fulfil a sense of destiny. In Return of the One Armed Swordsman  the approach is different, and perhaps more usual, as an already famous swordsman is compelled by external  forces to abandon a life of seclusion and re-enter the fray out of a sense of duty to his country.

I love this period of Chang Cheh's filmography, particularly as it applies to the Wuxia genre. The introspective focus, the melodrama; both combine to give a sense of humanity to complement the action sequences. The story becomes so much more satisfying when you can literally feel  the emotions behind the characters' actions; they become real people and you care what becomes of them. In The Assassin  Nie Zheng is very human. He may be an expert swordsman but he is not a cold-blooded killer. And, in his quest to find meaning to his life, the director presents women as both the problem and the solution. The film explores the filial relationship and sense of duty to both his mother and sister, and the romantic relationship with his girlfriend. All are constraints to what he views as a higher purpose in life, the glory of martyrdom having achieved his rightful place in the annals of history. There is a sense of fatalism to the male psyche in these films. And interestingly in The Assassin  it is necessary for the hero, having achieved an act worthy of recognition, to remain anonymous in death to protect the women he loves from retribution. To fall just short of his goal. Yet the director cleverly turns to his sister, hitherto a minor role in the narrative, to truly fulfil his destiny. Great stuff!

Man, these stories can get deep!

 

[Iron_Leopard]

On 12/25/2017 at 5:27 PM, AgriWuxia said:

Interesting choice for a thread topic @Iron_Leopard. I believe that Wang Yu and Chiao Chiao starred in three films for Chang Cheh in 1967, in broadly similar roles : One Armed Swordsman, The Assassin, and Trail of the Broken Blade. Return of the One Armed Swordsman  continued the association into 1969.  It has been a while since I last watched any of these titles, so I hope my memory doesn't let me down!

In answer to your question, I believe The Assassin  has the stronger dramatic impact and a greater depth to the story. For the focus is on the internal  forces (tradition/filial duty) constraining swordsman Nie Zheng as he struggles to find meaning in his life; to fulfil a sense of destiny. In Return of the One Armed Swordsman  the approach is different, and perhaps more usual, as an already famous swordsman is compelled by external  forces to abandon a life of seclusion and re-enter the fray out of a sense of duty to his country.

I love this period of Chang Cheh's filmography, particularly as it applies to the Wuxia genre. The introspective focus, the melodrama; both combine to give a sense of humanity to complement the action sequences. The story becomes so much more satisfying when you can literally feel  the emotions behind the characters' actions; they become real people and you care what becomes of them. In The Assassin  Nie Zheng is very human. He may be an expert swordsman but he is not a cold-blooded killer. And, in his quest to find meaning to his life, the director presents women as both the problem and the solution. The film explores the filial relationship and sense of duty to both his mother and sister, and the romantic relationship with his girlfriend. All are constraints to what he views as a higher purpose in life, the glory of martyrdom having achieved his rightful place in the annals of history. There is a sense of fatalism to the male psyche in these films. And interestingly in The Assassin  it is necessary for the hero, having achieved an act worthy of recognition, to remain anonymous in death to protect the women he loves from retribution. To fall just short of his goal. Yet the director cleverly turns to his sister, hitherto a minor role in the narrative, to truly fulfil his destiny. Great stuff!

Man, these stories can get deep!

 

Great reply! 

I agree the late 60s of Chang Chehs films seem to be stronger on story and characters then what would come later. I seem to be emotionally attached to the characters here and I care what's going to happen to them. But this is rarely the case with each passing fil Cheh made. I wonder why that is? Why has he not been able to make me care what happens to any of the Venoms in their movies? I'm guessing it's because by that point in time his movies were more action focused than his earlier work. I may be wrong but that's all I can come up with.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Overall I agree. But in some of the Venoms films he does allow for some character development or social commentary. In Magnificent Ruffians, the heroes are "men out of time" as martial arts are deemed worthless skills and they have to beg, steal or clown themselves for a decent meal. They are simple folks and what they had to offer the world, martial arts and performance thereof, is no longer in demand, making them tragic characters.

Or in Rebel Intruders where the refugee crisis of the film and the harsh treatment of them could be seen as Cheh's comment on the influx of Vietnamese "boat people" into HK which was at its height in 1980, the year of production.

Sure, the main focus seemed to be on the action, and charming and personable as they were, no one in the Venoms crew were David Chiang or Ti Lung in the acting or charisma department. The Chang Cheh of the Venoms era seemed to be more in conveyor belt mode than taking his time to hit us in the feels with some solid storytelling like he did in the late 60's- early 70's. But while perhaps not as effective, there are sometimes more to the Venoms flicks than meets the eye on the first superficial watch.

 

[Killer Meteor]

The dubbing in Return is indeed awful. Strange that it's not the usual Shaw team.

[AgriWuxia]

On 29/12/2017 at 7:55 PM, Iron_Leopard said:

Great reply! 

I agree the late 60s of Chang Chehs films seem to be stronger on story and characters then what would come later. I seem to be emotionally attached to the characters here and I care what's going to happen to them. But this is rarely the case with each passing fil Cheh made. I wonder why that is? Why has he not been able to make me care what happens to any of the Venoms in their movies? I'm guessing it's because by that point in time his movies were more action focused than his earlier work. I may be wrong but that's all I can come up with.

I also believe your assertion is correct. The focus on masculine based action in the Venoms films seems to come at the expense of character development, which would at least partly explain the lack of viewer connection to the characters. The absence of strong central female lead characters, which seems to typify these films (though I admit I haven't seen them all), would also be a contributing factor. By removing the fairer sex from the narrative, the opportunity to pursue dramatic or introspective story lines that give depth to the characters and engage the viewer would be somewhat compromised. General social commentary would still be possible but the masculine context would steer proceedings strongly towards action and bloodshed. And away from introspection; a concept which is anathema to the strong self-sacrificing heroes the director ultimately wished to portray.

However, it wasn't just the director's personal convictions driving change away from the female-centred introspective cinema of the 50's and 60's. External forces were at work too. Society was changing; traditions being challenged. The Kung Fu craze of the early 70's tipped the balance toward action packed films; box office returns were paramount and to ignore the changing composition and tastes of the target audience would be financially disastrous for the studio. The filmmakers had to keep their finger continually on the pulse of changing trends among the viewing public. And, I also wonder whether the sheer industrial scale and pace of the studios production process wasn't better suited to the more straightforward narratives of the masculine based action movies anyway? 

@Iron_Leopard. Thank you for your positive response to my earlier post above.

I would also like to acknowledge your recent efforts to create new content and encourage discussion among forum members. 

[Iron_Leopard]

37 minutes ago, AgriWuxia said:

I also believe your assertion is correct. The focus on masculine based action in the Venoms films seems to come at the expense of character development, which would at least partly explain the lack of viewer connection to the characters. The absence of strong central female lead characters, which seems to typify these films (though I admit I haven't seen them all), would also be a contributing factor. By removing the fairer sex from the narrative, the opportunity to pursue dramatic or introspective story lines that give depth to the characters and engage the viewer would be somewhat compromised. General social commentary would still be possible but the masculine context would steer proceedings strongly towards action and bloodshed. And away from introspection; a concept which is anathema to the strong self-sacrificing heroes the director ultimately wished to portray.

However, it wasn't just the director's personal convictions driving change away from the female-centred introspective cinema of the 50's and 60's. External forces were at work too. Society was changing; traditions being challenged. The Kung Fu craze of the early 70's tipped the balance toward action packed films; box office returns were paramount and to ignore the changing composition and tastes of the target audience would be financially disastrous for the studio. The filmmakers had to keep their finger continually on the pulse of changing trends among the viewing public. And, I also wonder whether the sheer industrial scale and pace of the studios production process wasn't better suited to the more straightforward narratives of the masculine based action movies anyway? 

@Iron_Leopard. Thank you for your positive response to my earlier post above.

I would also like to acknowledge your recent efforts to create new content and encourage discussion among forum members. 

I never even thought about that until you just mentioned it. You are absolutely right. The lack of females in these later films is one of the main reasons why I think I connect less with this era. Still love these action packed kung fu movies of the late 70's but it's amazing how much more human and even more epic these movies are with the presence of one or more main female characters. I'm not nearly as good with words as you are so I hope I'm making sense. 

Its all clear to me now. The absence of women and the audience wanting nonstop action oriented escapism by the early to mid 70s meant Chang Cheh movies traded that emotional human touch for what we call todays summer popcorn flicks.

Thank you for the education

And thanks for acknowledging my recent activity. 

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Aaaaah, I'm gonna be the fly in the ointment here again. That whole "no women" in Venoms flicks thesis is somewhat misguided if you ask me. It's a bit of a crude generalisation, though I'll concede that many of them don't feature women in big parts but...

Invincible Shaolin has Niu Niu, Yau Chui Ling and Kara Hui in prominent roles.

Kid with the Golden Arm has Helen Poon Bing in a prominent role.

She also shows up along with Linda Chu and Wong Man Yee in prominent roles in Legend of the Fox.

Linda Chu is also fairly prominent in Rebel Intruders.

Candy Wen plays prominent parts in both Two Champions of Shaolin and Sword Stained with Royal Blood.

And that is just some of them. Heaven and Hell, Ode to Gallantry and the Brave Archer flicks, if you count those, also feature women in pivotal parts.

Were these women the focus of these films? No, but neither were the women in CC's late 60's and early 70's work. He never made female centric films, even relegating Cheng Pei Pei to second banana in Golden Swallow, where she should have been the star. 

 

[Killer Meteor]

The prescence of an actual love story in films like Shaolin Martial Arts and Invincible Shaolin puts me in mind of Carl Denham's complaint in King Kong - " I go out and sweat blood to make a swell picture and then the critics and the exhibitors all say, 'If this picture had love interest it would gross twice as much.' "

[Iron_Leopard]

17 hours ago, TibetanWhiteCrane said:

Aaaaah, I'm gonna be the fly in the ointment here again. That whole "no women" in Venoms flicks thesis is somewhat misguided if you ask me. It's a bit of a crude generalisation, though I'll concede that many of them don't feature women in big parts but...

Invincible Shaolin has Niu Niu, Yau Chui Ling and Kara Hui in prominent roles.

Kid with the Golden Arm has Helen Poon Bing in a prominent role.

She also shows up along with Linda Chu and Wong Man Yee in prominent roles in Legend of the Fox.

Linda Chu is also fairly prominent in Rebel Intruders.

Candy Wen plays prominent parts in both Two Champions of Shaolin and Sword Stained with Royal Blood.

And that is just some of them. Heaven and Hell, Ode to Gallantry and the Brave Archer flicks, if you count those, also feature women in pivotal parts.

Were these women the focus of these films? No, but neither were the women in CC's late 60's and early 70's work. He never made female centric films, even relegating Cheng Pei Pei to second banana in Golden Swallow, where she should have been the star. 

 

 

10 hours ago, Killer Meteor said:

The prescence of an actual love story in films like Shaolin Martial Arts and Invincible Shaolin puts me in mind of Carl Denham's complaint in King Kong - " I go out and sweat blood to make a swell picture and then the critics and the exhibitors all say, 'If this picture had love interest it would gross twice as much.' "

I watched three Venoms movies yesterday. A first time viewing of "Invincable Shaolin" and rewatches of "Crippled Avengers" and "Masked Avengers". You guys might be on to something because INVINCIBLE is my least favorite Venom film so far. I liked it enough but will probably never revisit it again. Meanwhile "Masked Avengers" is one of my favorite martial arts movies ever.

[AgriWuxia]

On 01/01/2018 at 6:17 PM, TibetanWhiteCrane said:

Aaaaah, I'm gonna be the fly in the ointment here again. That whole "no women" in Venoms flicks thesis is somewhat misguided if you ask me. It's a bit of a crude generalisation, though I'll concede that many of them don't feature women in big parts but...

Invincible Shaolin has Niu Niu, Yau Chui Ling and Kara Hui in prominent roles.

Kid with the Golden Arm has Helen Poon Bing in a prominent role.

She also shows up along with Linda Chu and Wong Man Yee in prominent roles in Legend of the Fox.

Linda Chu is also fairly prominent in Rebel Intruders.

Candy Wen plays prominent parts in both Two Champions of Shaolin and Sword Stained with Royal Blood.

And that is just some of them. Heaven and Hell, Ode to Gallantry and the Brave Archer flicks, if you count those, also feature women in pivotal parts.

Were these women the focus of these films? No, but neither were the women in CC's late 60's and early 70's work. He never made female centric films, even relegating Cheng Pei Pei to second banana in Golden Swallow, where she should have been the star. 

 

I don't consider you to be a "fly in the ointment" at all. You have raised a valid point and brought another perspective to the thread topic, which is exactly what the forum is all about.

I agree that women were never the central focus of Chang Cheh's films. But to me, the issue is not so much that there are "no women" in the Venoms films. There absolutely are. Rather it is the noticeable decline in emphasis of their female-centred nuances, in comparison with the director's earlier work of the late 60's/early 70's. As an example, you mentioned the three women in Invincible Shaolin, each as a romantic interest for the central characters. Yet, if I remember correctly, this theme was only touched upon as an aside to the proceedings and then pretty much shelved. The women reduced to "spectators"; powerless to change the heroes' fate. Of course, one could argue that women in a good proportion of the directors films face the same issue, but in his earlier films I believe the female-centred nuances were at least explored a little more fully and had a greater bearing on the story.

I actually re-watched Two Champions of Shaolin last night to refresh my memory. Candy Wen does have a prominent role, however a good proportion is based on her knife throwing skills. In some ways she comes across as "one of the boys". Still, I will concede that there are a couple of instances where the director lets us see her as a girl; her emotional state in the final scene, in particular, was quite compelling and impacted the story's conclusion as well. So the issue certainly is not Black and White. 

Part of the reason for the perception may relate to the structure of the Venoms films. The group dynamic of three to five (maybe 6) men to present a story, each sharing a proportion of the available screen time, likely dilutes the potential for exploring introspective themes. The focus is no longer solely on the conflicts facing an individual such as in The Assassin or The One Armed Swordsman Series. Further, accommodating all this extra testosterone would eat up the screen time in a practical sense, the female supporting roles being the most likely casualty given the director.

And finally, maybe I am the problem. Each of us react differently to the viewing experience. I was first introduced to the Venoms fresh from viewing some of Chang Cheh's earlier work and, more tellingly, after consuming a substantial diet of Chu Yuan fare. To me they just had a completely different "feel". But don't get me wrong, I do enjoy these films. I just approach them with different expectations compared to Chang Cheh's earlier work. That said, I will look at the Venoms films I have yet to view with renewed interest (and a more open mind!). I am especially interested in the two Helen Poon Bing titles you mentioned.

On 02/01/2018 at 12:32 AM, Killer Meteor said:

The prescence of an actual love story in films like Shaolin Martial Arts and Invincible Shaolin puts me in mind of Carl Denham's complaint in King Kong - " I go out and sweat blood to make a swell picture and then the critics and the exhibitors all say, 'If this picture had love interest it would gross twice as much.' "

Point taken!  . Sometimes it is difficult to see the wood for the trees. And I am certainly not immune to this problem either! (See my last paragraph above).

I am reminded of Mary Shelley's classic, Frankenstein. Despite the absolute horror of his creation, the "monster" was still very human and yearned for the basic human needs of love and acceptance. Could the general public look past the countless horror films typecasting the surface of the literary work, and consider it instead as a tragic story of unrequited love?

[Tex Killer]

On 1.1.2018 at 7:17 AM, TibetanWhiteCrane said:

Aaaaah, I'm gonna be the fly in the ointment here again. That whole "no women" in Venoms flicks thesis is somewhat misguided if you ask me. It's a bit of a crude generalisation, though I'll concede that many of them don't feature women in big parts but...

 

 

life gamble also has females, actually quite many and some of them in big parts.

Townspeople in venom flicks however seem to be (almost?) all male only

To original topic, it`s really hard to choose. Both are interesting but different way. The Assassin has wellcrafted story and while low on action it keeps interest level up through the flick nicely.

ROOAS is on the other hand maybe best JWY in action department. Lots of creative action scenes and finale is excellent. Pretty much tie between those two but have to say I view Swordsman more than assassin, because of the action.

[thekfc]

On 1/21/2018 at 10:18 PM, Tex Killer said:

life gamble also has females, actually quite many and some of them in big parts.

To me Life Gamble do not feel like a Chang Cheh film. It feels like someone else did the majority of the directing and CC stamped his name on it.