Bruce Lee - Full Contact Competition

[Phantom Dreamer]

Do people think less of Bruce Lee due to his refusal to participate in full contact competition? Granted, he had nothing to gain had he chosen to participate, as I believe he was around 30 or close to it and was more focused on his prospective film career at that point in his life. The pay wasn't going to change his life, by any means.

"I'm the person that promoted the first Kickboxing Event in the U.S.A . Joe was the only Karate person who was willing to participate in the Event. I asked all the well known Karate Champions even Bruce Lee to participate and the only other person Joe and I found was Gregg Baines . That was why there was only one match at the event . The only other Black Belt Champion willing to fight full contact was Ed Daniels from Dallas , Texas. These two guys are the real Champions and were willing to put it all on the line . I had a great deal of respect for Joe, Ed and Gregg . Everyone was against this Event . Black Belt Magazine would not help promotion it . There will never be another Joe." - Lee Faulkner Faulkner

 

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

I don't feel there would've been any need for him to engage in full contact competition because being the best at martial arts was never his ultimate goal; as far as ambitions went he was only concerned with debunking the excessive traditionalism associated with the martial arts world, which he had already accomplished with the Long Beach competitions and his own school. But as with everything, who knows? He might've changed his mind in the mid 70's and showed off his chops in competitions, which by then Jeet Kune Do might've evolved even further. It's up to each person's interpretation.

[DragonClaws]

On 16/10/2017 at 7:40 AM, Phantom Dreamer said:

Do people think less of Bruce Lee due to his refusal to participate in full contact competition? Granted, he had nothing to gain had he chosen to participate, as I believe he was around 30 or close to it and was more focused on his prospective film career at that point in his life. The pay wasn't going to change his life, by any means.

It doesn't alter my opinion of him at all, he was a street fighter. He learned stuff that he could apply in a street situation. Also by the age thirty, its a bit old to suddenly take part in a compitition, which would have rules. Lee being smart, knew there was no such thing as being undefeatable, what he said to John Saxon about a fight with Ali backs this up.

Joe Lewis had no qualms about putting his reputation on the line, and that says a lot about the guy. Hell he was gonna spar with Muhammed Ali, until Ali's trainers spotted who he was, and came up with an excuse to stop it. Lewis was attending a sparring session, where various boxer's were taking turns to enter the ring with Ali. He stepped in before the last few guys had there turn. Yet Ali's management, who had a lot more to loose than Ali did, made up some excuses and got him out of the ring.

[Phantom Dreamer]

A fight between Bruce Lee & Muhammad Ali? "Look at my hand, that's a little Chinese hand, he'd kill me."

Clouse's The Making of Enter the Dragon is the only publication the above quote appears. Take it with a grain of salt.

[DragonClaws]

6 minutes ago, Phantom Dreamer said:

Clouse's The Making of Enter the Dragon is the only publication the above quote appears. Take it with a grain of salt.

Saxon did mention it in other interviews, which leads me to believe he wasn't making it up. His story stayed the same, rather than varying all the time.

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

5 hours ago, DragonClaws said:

Saxon did mention it in other interviews, which leads me to believe he wasn't making it up. His story stayed the same, rather than varying all the time.

Western Boxing and Chinese Boxing are two completely different worlds. It's rather unrealistic to expert a fair, balanced match between both parties. But if it were a no-rules-except-dont-bite street fight? The results would be anyone's guess. It's for the same reason why, at least in my opinion, Bruce wouldn't have done so hot against a prospective match against Muay Thai fighters, because he would have to abide to their rules. I do think he would've prevailed had it been a typical street fight.

[Phantom Dreamer]

Nobody knows if Lee could take a punch. How's his chin?

[sym8]

I don't think any less of him for not doing tournaments,I think he said on occasions that's not what I do and he was more interested in what you need to succeed in a real fight where there is no referee or rules.would Bruce have been any good in tournaments? maybe,maybe not but would he be good in a street fight? I think so.

[Phantom Dreamer]

I have no doubt Bruce Lee would have done well in a "point" setting had he chosen to participate. He had an ideal skill set, I just wonder if he could absorb a big hit from someone who knew what they were doing. Pure speculation.

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

33 minutes ago, Phantom Dreamer said:

I have no doubt Bruce Lee would have done well in a "point" setting had he chosen to participate. He had an ideal skill set, I just wonder if he could absorb a big hit from someone who knew what they were doing. Pure speculation.

I know the following question is purely on a fictional realm, but I wonder how well Bruce Lee would do in a Bloodsport kumite esque scenario?

[Phantom Dreamer]

Do the people believe any of this?

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

21 minutes ago, Phantom Dreamer said:

Do the people believe any of this?

Lee wasn't that thin at all during his teens.

[DragonClaws]

On 20/10/2017 at 8:42 PM, Fist of the Heavenly Sky said:

I know the following question is purely on a fictional realm, but I wonder how well Bruce Lee would do in a Bloodsport kumite esque scenario?

Impossible to say really, so many thing to consider.

9 hours ago, Phantom Dreamer said:

Do the people believe any of this?

Souds legit, but as fan I can only take th words of authros/writers, who have mentioned/talked about this boxing tournament.

 

9 hours ago, Fist of the Heavenly Sky said:

Lee wasn't that thin at all during his teens.

He started using weights during his last years in Hong Kong, his sisters boyfrend introduced him to them. That said, he's still very lean in thos pictures. Probably still much healtheir there, than he was during the making of Enter The Dragon.

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

4 minutes ago, DragonClaws said:

Impossible to say really, so many thing to consider.

He started using weights during his last years in Hong Kong, his sisters boyfrend introduced him to them. That said, he's still very lean in thos pictures. Probably still much healtheir there, than he was during the making of Enter The Dragon.

I suppose such a scenario might've happened iin an alternate timeline in which Bruce Lee never moved to the USA and instead remained in Hong Kong. The events of BB, or at least something similar to it, may as well could've become reality as well, but I'm getting too ahead of myself.

It wasn't until 1964 when he started taking physical fitness on an obsessive level, I think? Bruce was already quite buff by then but it still did not hold a candle to his first adult movie seven years later.

[Phantom Dreamer]

41 minutes ago, Fist of the Heavenly Sky said:

his first adult movie seven years later.

I joke around with the Roper quotes, but this is something I really don't care to see.

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

20 minutes ago, Phantom Dreamer said:

I joke around with the Roper quotes, but this is something I really don't care to see.

*shrugs* I mean adult film as in the first film he did in 1971 after his period as a child actor many years prior. It has nothing to do (for the most part) with you-know-what.

[Phantom Dreamer]

"Wall said that Lee didn't really know how to fight"

 

[Phantom Dreamer]

Sure

[Phantom Dreamer]

Who ya got?

[Phantom Dreamer]

THE FIRST ATTEMPTS AT 'CONTACT' IN AMERICAN KARATE

Tracing the complete history of 'Contact' Karate is almost as impossible as tracing the true origin of the Martial Arts themselves. Count Dante* (aka John Keehan) was blackballed by the American Martial Arts community for allowing contact into tournament Karate. In 1967, the 'Father of American Tae Kwon-Do' Jhoon Rhee exclaimed, "I am totally against such a tournament personally and I will not send any of my students to compete. I know this type of contest will hurt Karate in America tremendously in a very short time."

AMERICAN 'CONTACT' KARATE CONTINUES
1963

John Keehan (Count Dante) held the 1st World Karate Championships at the Chicago Fieldshouse on July 28, 1963. In 1967, In Chicago he promoted what was supposed to be the first bare knuckle full contact event ever conducted in the US. It was reportedly supported by only 8 black belt contestants.
1967
John Ryther wins the '67 World Professional Martial Arts Championship. It was a no holds barred knockout contest where the victor walked away with $10,000. Whether this is true or not has been debated since the date it supposedly happened.

1969
BRUCE LEE AND HIS INFLUENCE ON KICKBOXING PIONEER AND BLACK BELT HALL OF FAME INDUCTEE JOE LEWIS

In North America, the birth of "American Kickboxing" in it's earliest and roughest form had its first unsuccessful attempt at the limelight in 1969. American Martial Arts Legend Joe Lewis * was frustrated by the unrealistic nature of tournament Karate, in which blows are pulled short of contact. Famed Martial Artist and Movie Star Bruce Lee referred to this type of competition as "swimming on dry land". He felt Martial Arts relied to much on mystique and not enough on practicality. Pioneer Joe Lewis, was making a name for himself on the very young American Martial Arts Tournament circuit. Lewis also felt this type of competition was a game of tag. Lewis and Lee started working together formulating a new approach to the Martial Arts. Though Lee did not compete, it is universally felt, that Joe Lewis was his 'working laboratory'. Both gentlemen had graduated to using the Martial Arts in a full contact environment. Influenced by his training sessions in boxing with Joey Orbillo and 'Kickboxing' with Bruce Lee, Lewis started training in various boxing gyms in Los Angeles with the full intentions of becoming a professional boxer (Lewis has admitted to me if he would have had his way he would have preferred to become a professional wrestler). In late 1969, Los Angeles promoter Lee Faulkner contacted Lewis to compete in a major non contact team contest. Lewis only agreed if Faulkner would permit him to compete in a Kickboxing match. At first finding a suitable opponent was very difficult for both the promoter and the athlete

*JOE LEWIS

In late 1969 Joe Lewis introduced Full Contact fighting. He called it Kickboxing but it was later changed to Professional Karate or Contact Karate. In 1972 Lewis quits Kickboxing. In his last fight against Jesse King, promoter Aaron Banks was supposed to pay a certain fee and does not. Banks holds the event in the middle of the week and has poor attendance for the event and blames it on Lewis stating "Lewis' name has no pull anymore." In 1973 Lewis states, "Thai kicking is less powerful (than Karate) and it's punching is relatively poor". In 1983 (at the age of 39), he made a courageous comeback to try and regain his World Heavyweight Full Contact Title, but he retired before regaining the title. Re-retired after 2 straight losses complaining of no money and no glory in fighting anymore.

1970
JOE LEWIS AND THE FIRST ACKNOWLEDGED 'AMERICAN KICKBOXING' FIGHT

Eventually Lewis found an opponent and had his first Kickboxing match on January 17th, 1970 by knocking out Greg Baines (a San Jose Kenpo stylist) to become the first U.S. Heavyweight 'Kickboxing' Champion. During the bout, the announcer kept calling the bout 'American Kickboxing'. The mistake in terminology caught on and Joe Lewis became known as the man who pioneered 'American Kickboxing' in North America. Joe Lewis defended his title ten times with no opponent lasting through the second round. 
In 1970, full contact Kickboxing invaded America largely through the efforts of Californian Lee Faulkner. Faulkner presented the first Kickboxing bout, between Joe Lewis and Greg Baines. It took place at the Long Beach Arena in conjunction with a noncontact professional tournament. Lewis gained the first American Kickboxing Title with a 3rd round KO. Aaron Banks and Allen Steen both also picked up on American Kickboxing immediately. No one knows exactly how many Kickboxing events were held in the US during this time but it is known that Lewis was the most sparkling champion. He successfully defended his US title, all with 1st or 2nd round KO'es.

AMERICAN KICKBOXING ALMOST HAS IT'S FIRST RING FATALITY

'USA Pro Open Karate Championships is promoted by Lee Faulkner. On June 20th, 1970 in Dallas, Texas, Joe Lewis faced Texan Big Ed Daniel*, In the first round both men were aggressive and Daniel threw more punchesbut the shorter Lewis just ducked under, covered or moved out of range of the punches. The first round was given to Daniel. In the 2nd round, Lewis looked warmed up and he dropped Daniel to the canvas with a right cross. Daniel was counted out but he finally did get up. On the undercard Jim Harrison and his face get beaten to a pulp over 2 1/2 rounds. His face was bloody and it looked like an easy victor for his foe Victor Moore who suddenly got hit with a beautiful clean punch which dropped Moore for the count.

JOE LEWIS KICKBOXES ON

On January 24th, Aaron Banks 2nd Annual United Nations Open Karate Championships featured Joe Lewis against a supposed powerhouse by the name of Ronnie Barkoot. Rumor had it that Barkoot had received some lethal secret instruction from a famous but secret instructor. The bout was to be 4 rounds of 2 minutes duration for each round. No blows were allowed below the belt. The bout started with Barkoot coming out strong. Barkoot attempted to land kicks that Lewis easily avoided and at about 20 seconds into the round, Lewis began his offensive, a charge that knocked his opponent to the canvas. It was power rather than technique and Barkoot bounced to his feet again. This time he was decked by a short sharp left. Barkoot got back up but it was obvious he had more courage and talent by this time. Barkoot swarmed in throwing punches which bounced ineffectively off of the Champ's arms. Lewis moved to the center of the ring and taunted Barkoot to punch him in the chin. It was an invitation that the challenger should not have taken because at 75 seconds into the 1st round, Barkoot took a bombing left hook that dropped him to the canvas for the count and beyond. 2000 spectators witnessed the bout and the following Kickboxing card. The judges used on the event had no idea on how to judge the fight event and like most other Kickboxing events of this period, they were hosted with a Karate tournament. Kickboxing with Karate tournaments caused a big dilemma at this time; 'Should Kickboxing be held with Karate tournaments or not?' The general opinion was not to.

TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS IS FOR SISSIES!

Count Dante (John Keehan) is outspoken at this time stating that Karate is for sissies. "The effectiveness of the present-day fighting arts is too cramped because of the many unnatural controls the Orientals exercise over the politics of these arts." Dante is an outspoken proponent of Full Contact Karate (though not under the rules that Full Contact Karate eventually evolved into). 

JOE LEWIS BATTLES ATLAS KING

On June 23, 1971, Aaron Banks* promotes the 'World Championship Kickboxing Bouts' with Joe Lewis against 'Atlas' Jesse King. King hits the floor 2 times in the first round. At 2 minutes and 30 seconds of the second round, King went down 3 times but on the 3rd, did not make it back up. King looks so bad during this fight that the bout is universally panned. Lewis expresses frustration about the poor support from the Martial Arts media he is getting and the way his bouts are being played down (ie. fighting 'bums').

KICKBOXING IS TOO DANGEROUS

Martial Arts Legend Ed Parker predicts at the time that if Kickboxing keeps going there will be 8 to 10 deaths a year. He refuses to have Kickboxing at any of his events.

JOE LEWIS GETS HIS FIRST SHOT AT A WORLD KICKBOXING TITLE

In 1971, Lee Faulkner tries to get US Heavyweight Champion Joe Lewis a fight for the World Heavyweight Title. He tries to find an opponent in Japan but the biggest fighters they can find at the time weigh in the high 160 lbs. range. There was the All Asian Champion and they were going to pay the Japanese athlete $3000 to fight in the US while Lewis was only going to get $1000 for the title. Lewis told Faulkner that he wanted $5500 plus $500 for training expenses. ABC's Wide World of Sports was interested in filming the bout (anywhere in the world). Faulkner never came back with a counter offer so Lewis retired. 

1972
AMERICAN KICKBOXING IN LIMBO

During 1972 and 1973 American Kickboxing was dead in North America. Kung Fu and Bruce Lee were the big craze at the time. The fantasy world of the movies (taking out multitudes of opponents with one blow) appealed to the general population. It was easier to believe that a Martial Artist was so deadly, he practised by never hitting someone, because if he did, he would kill someone (truthfully, it encouraged people to train without ever having to strike someone who could strike back resulting in pain)! A few people tried to teach the sport but to small numbers of students. One of the more successful during this period in time was a Joe Lewis student by the name of Jerry Smith. Smith played a stronger role in the sport during the resurgence that was to come in 1974. Though the sport was quiet in North America several Americans had made names for themselves while serving in the military and stationed in the Orient during the Vietnam War. 
 

[Phantom Dreamer]

On 1/5/2018 at 4:14 PM, Phantom Dreamer said:

Joe Rogan & Joey Diaz call the Bruce Lee/Chuck Norris Way of the Dragon fight.

.

[DragonClaws]

Joe Rogan show appears to be pretty popular, to be honest I've only listened to odd bits, when he's had a guest on I like.

[Phantom Dreamer]

Bruce Lee and his sparring demonstration with Dan Inosanto and the video claims Taky Kimura. I thought it was James Lee, but perhaps it's Kimura.

[Phantom Dreamer]

19 hours ago, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

My understanding is that he used steroids for back pain, not for bodybuilding. He had scoliosis, which I can tell you from experience will only let you get so far in high impact sports. One of the reasons I have serious doubts he could have been a great MMA guy. Structurally unsound. What I mean is, speed, technique, etc are there, but a few good shocks to the spine (getting seriously thrown or slammed) that would not stop someone with a normal spine would be very painful to someone with scoliosis. Just no room for error.

Bruce Lee, most likely a bantamweight, probably stood no chance with all of his physical limitations, be it from birth or lifestyle.

[Phantom Dreamer]

Charles Russo on the Bruce Lee/Wong Jack Man encounter:

In Oakland, Bruce would only have two witnesses: his recent bride Linda Lee (who was 8 months pregnant at the time) and his close colleague James Lee (who had a loaded handgun nearby in case things spiraled out of control). This made for a total of nine people in the room, only three of whom are alive today. With a couple of very rare exceptions, Wong Jack Man has stayed perennially quiet on the matter. Linda Lee and David Chin, who were on opposing sides of the conflict, give a generally similar account: the fight was fast and furious, spilling wildly around the room. The exchange was crude, and far from cinematic. After landing an opening blow on Wong’s temple, Bruce struggled to decisively put away his evasive opponent like he had in Seattle a few years earlier, and quickly found himself heavily winded by the encounter.

Eventually Bruce’s relentless advance caused Wong to stumble over a small step, into an untenable position on the floor where Bruce hollered “Do you yield?” in Cantonese over and over while pummeling him repeatedly. Having lost his footing, Wong had no choice but to concede. “From there, he said he gives up and we stopped the fight,” recalls David Chin. “The whole thing lasted…not more than seven minutes.”

http://m.fightland.vice.com/blog/bruce-lee-vs-wong-jack-man-fact-fiction-and-the-birth-of-the-dragon