Shaw Brothers fans a dying breed?

[Writ]

14 hours ago, masterofoneinchpunch said:

Anyone who calls themselves a film buff and dismisses almost a century of cinema (or more) is no film buff... I love talking to people about film (probably too much) and I talk to some Hong Kong expatriates who saw these originally in Hong Kong or they will tell me there parents saw some of these and that their first Hong Kong films were somewhere in the 80s or 90s (depending on their age.)  Then they wonder why I like them (this has actually came up several dozen times) and why I'm watching something that old. Then I tell them about the Ruan Lingyu films I have from the 1930s.

I absolutely agree. I know just a few too many people who would describe themselves as a film buff and not watch anything older than Reservoir Dogs or something. Even worse, people who wouldn't watch anything older than Memento. But you also bring up an interesting point that I too myself had experienced. During my time studying in China, when talking about movies with locals, plenty of them couldn't understand why I loved watching 70s martial arts films so much. Oh they'll definitely be able to tell you they know Ruan Lingyu since to them she's as recognisable as Charlie Chaplin is to us, but chances are they've never checked out a Ruan Lingyu film (by the way, absolutely love The Goddess).

14 hours ago, masterofoneinchpunch said:

Long shots are still used, but more in artistic films like Birdman (2014; which was inspired by the one-shot film Russian Ark which I highly recommend to anyone interested in camera work.)  Johnnie To used a long shot at the beginning of Breaking News.  Atonement, the steady-cam shot in Tom Yum Goong etc... 

For some of us: "that modern day sheen" can sometimes look crappy.  For example CGI blood just does not look as good as squibs.  CGI crowd shots just does not look as good as huge amount of people like in Gandhi, Ben Hur (either of the first two including the silent) or the running of the soldiers in To Live.  If you notice the CGI then it can take you out of the shot.  Hand-held camerawork has mixed results -- with a complete overuse today that can also take you out of the shot.  Take a look at the cinematography of Kenji Mizoguchi or F.W. Murnau (very few films today have as good as cinematography as Sunrise and that was released in 1927.)

Now this is not to say there are no big differences.  Studio shots were much more prevalent in the 30s through early 60s than today.  That can throw you off.  Certain types of special effects like optical, use of rear projection can certainly date something.  But still prosthetics are still used (see Hellboy 2 for example as a good mix of CGI and older techniques.)   And the fact that much camera work is so similar to each other that if one is only raised with mainstream Hollywood films from the 2000s till now they might be used to the same type of shaky patterns (the Greengrass or Michael Bay effects), same type of editing etc...

There are also other ways to date films from clothing, cars, etc... (even period pieces may give certain aspects away).  Someday some future streaming youths will be making fun of the Avengers, comic-book and/or, insert any popular film now and thinking the latest action movie is the greatest film ever made.

But if we do get into more mainstream Hollywood releases (which are what the majority of people pretty much exclusively watch), outside of say Steven Spielberg or M. Night Shyamalan (oh I'm sure there's more, but just off the top of my head for examples), you probably won't be getting many long takes. People not accustomed to the long takes of older films, or are inexperienced with film theory might criticise because of that ignorance. An example was when I was watching the extended version of Fearless with some friends, and a friend of mine said specifically that he could tell that certain dialogue scenes were deleted scenes because they were long shots. My point here though is say if I myself made a film, and I wanted a long shot long take for a dialogue scene. If I showed this to my friends, they might think it's due to my inexperience that I've shot it this way rather than the usual shot-reverse shot of many modern day mainstream films. Of course there are plenty of arthouse and foreign films that employ this type of shot, but outside of Spielberg or Shyamalan, we're pretty much not seeing this in modern Hollywood. I have been meaning to get to Russian Ark though, but Rope is my absolute favourite Hitchcock film which I believe Birdman also took some inspiration from.

And hey, we could get into a huge discussion about the merits of CGI, but to keep it short, I don't mind "bad" CGI, the same way most of us don't mind dolls thrown off cliffs or visible wires in our oldschool kung fu. But I do agree that CGI blood does suck most of the time.

[AgriWuxia]

On 18/03/2017 at 3:44 PM, Iron_Leopard said:

Do you think the fandom for these movies are becoming an endangered species? I have no proof to back this up but I feel the resurgence of these films and the interest peaked about ten years ago around 2007. Is the passion of the cult fans just as strong as ever or is it waning? Will anyone know that these films exist in 20 or 30 years?

We are living in a period where rapid advances in technology is driving societal change at an ever increasing pace. This appears to be a double-edged sword. On the one hand the Shaw films have recently been more accessible than ever before, in a wide variety of formats, and in virtually pristine condition thanks to Celestial's remastering. Probably they look better now than they did at the time of initial release in theatres of the time. But the reality remains; these films are the product of a bygone era. The actors and actresses; the directors - once so prominent are now approaching the end of their careers, or sadly have passed away. Their influence on the social mores of the time was unavoidably transient and probably specific to a particular generation.

I believe it is the experiences of our formative years, before we move into the responsibilities of adulthood, that shapes who we become. And it is the music and film of this period that strongly defines our upbringing, and triggers nostalgic memories. For me this period was the 70's and early 80's. Reading the above entries on this thread, I asked myself this question - What was the attraction of these old films?... I did not grow up with them, I only discovered them entirely by accident eight years ago. I believe the answer is the connection to my early years, I can relive the essence of a simpler time with the added benefit of a fresh Eastern perspective overlaid on the Western experiences of my youth. Given Hong Kong was a British Colony; this probably assisted the crossover appeal of these films. I connect strongly with the structure and content of these films, the quality of the presentation. Each film is a time capsule of a period to which I strongly identify, a time I lived through on my journey to adulthood. 

But this connection cannot be experienced by everyone, time moves on. I cannot help but wonder what the level of interest in these films will be in say 40 years time, when the people who grew up during the period of initial release are gone and the connection to the past is broken. Will they only be an archival curiosity of interest to students of film? Even now, amongst the Chinese, interest in these films is tenuous. At the local Lantern festival recently, mentioning names of prominent Shaw actors/actresses to any Chinese under 30 years of age was pointless. Some had never even heard of the studio! The only name with which I had any real success was Cheng Pei Pei, probably because she is still active in the industry. Even my Taiwanese friend, who is 12 years my senior, offhandedly dismissed these films when I told her of my interest - "Oh, we don't watch those old films anymore". She did however acknowledge the quality of the films, the amount of money Shaw's pumped into the production process - "If you are interested in Chinese films, Shaw films are the ones to watch".

Advances in technology may well introduce younger viewers to the Shaw universe, and it is my hope that the catalogue benefits from this. But the inescapable reality is these viewers will lack the direct connection to the period of their initial release, through no fault of their own, simply the passage of time. @Writ, as a younger viewer how do you relate to the presentation of the Shaw films? Do you think they would have more relevance if you had lived through the period of initial release? Or am I showing my age!!!? 

For myself, I am proud to be a member of this Forum, to support these films and extol the virtues of Sir Run Run Shaw's vision. 

[De Ming Li]

@Writ  The lack of interest from Mainland Chinese in Shaw films or any other martial arts cinema from the 60's and 70's could possibly be explained as a result of historical fluke. China underwent quite disastrous social upheaval during that era while Hong Kong and Taiwan obviously didn't experience that trauma. Those that grew up in the latter two Chinese territories would I assume have all the time in the world for leisure activities while their Mainland cousins were not nearly as fortunate. Even today, I would mention the Shaw Brothers on some mainland internet forums and the overwhelming response is a big blank silence, I reckon 99% of them don't know about the Shaw films and very unfortunately also don't give one iota about them either (should anyone like myself futilely try to get them into it). To them, old films = unglamorous rubbish (yes that's their mentality), now to be fair most Hong Kongers and Taiwanese don't care much for these films either but the Mainlanders are uniquely ignorant due to historical circumstances. East Asians in general being the conformists that most of us are simply follow the latest fashion trends often regardless of the actual quality of the content, now if I sound judgemental then it's because I dare say quite a few members here would agree with my (IMHO) quite plain and accurate observations. There is, to put it plainly, for us a profound lack of curiosity into the past and more damningly the result is good "products" (obviously not just films) get lost into the abyss time and again. At the end of the day, it's the Chinese themselves that need to rescue these films as historical legacy and while Celestial have done a good job so far I'm not optimistic about wooing future generations to these movies, though I pray that time will prove me wrong.

[De Ming Li]

@AgriWuxia  I can certainly relate to your experiences, it's very unfortunate and I would say even downright depressing that Chinese youths are so ignorant of something which should really be a proud product of a rich historical and cultural legacy. I am approaching 30 years of age and when I grew up watching a certain Japanese tokusatsu series (Ultraman) it stuck like super glue into my mind and even today the hair would stand on my arms when I hear the opening credits. The early formative years certainly has a major impact on your life. With regards to Shaw Brothers and other classic martial arts cinema, I find it sadly ironic that the curious and well meaning Westerner is more desperate to save those vintage motion pictures than the local people whom were the original intended audience. 

[ShawAngela]

36 minutes ago, De Ming Li said:

Westerner is more desperate to save those vintage motion pictures than the local people whom were the original intended audience. 

How true it is !

I wonder how many people here loving Shaws' movies are of non Chinese/Asian origin and praying for companies to go on releasing all these gems (the same for old Golden Harvest and old kung fu movies)...

[Tex Killer]

One should remember trends do change..and that is not always good thing, terence hill and bud spencer pretty much destroyed spaghetti westerns and jackie did lot harm for serious kung fu movies(I love some his kf comedies but Shaws were not able to produce such)

[masterofoneinchpunch]

4 hours ago, De Ming Li said:

@Writ  The lack of interest from Mainland Chinese in Shaw films or any other martial arts cinema from the 60's and 70's could possibly be explained as a result of historical fluke. China underwent quite disastrous social upheaval during that era while Hong Kong and Taiwan obviously didn't experience that trauma. ... To them, old films = unglamorous rubbish (yes that's their mentality), now to be fair most Hong Kongers and Taiwanese don't care much for these films either but the Mainlanders are uniquely ignorant due to historical circumstances. ... There is, to put it plainly, for us a profound lack of curiosity into the past and more damningly the result is good "products" (obviously not just films) get lost into the abyss time and again. At the end of the day, it's the Chinese themselves that need to rescue these films as historical legacy and while Celestial have done a good job so far I'm not optimistic about wooing future generations to these movies, though I pray that time will prove me wrong.

I would include the 50s as well.*  The film industry there (and in Russia and in Germany in the 30s) was destroyed expect for propaganda films (though nothing compared to the tens of millions that died of starvation, political camps ...).  Now this ties into the Shaw Brothers and the Hong Kong film industry as well because so much talent (actors, directors, producers, ...) moved south, especially to Hong Kong which pushed standards of film as well as helped push (one of several factors) the Mandarin language too.

To be fair HKFA (Hong Kong Film Archive) has done wonders for the past of Hong Kong film. 

Good books, good movies, music definitely gets lost to time.  Reputations can come and go.

To be fair about all new generations: they are starting out tabula rasa.  However, I am not optimistic as well, but I am doing my best to help: lend films, talk about them, write about them (yes I should improve this aspect) and as usual being the crazy guy in the coffee shop (drinking tea) and spouting off about film.  I never understand people's lack of curiosity and it is not always about the past.  Sometimes I think I'm the only person asking questions.  I'm sure you feel the same way.

* In the 80s: I'm a big fan of the Fifth Generation of filmmakers like Zhang Yimou and Chen Kaige.

[Iron_Leopard]

Phenomenal responses guys. Loving this feedback.

[FieryReign]

Of course it is. How many US SB releases have there been in the last couple years? They're obviously not financially feasible to bother with or companies like Funimation, Wellgo, Image, Tokyo Shock, and Dragon Dynasty would still be releasing them and not going defunct.

Not gonna blame piracy either, that's always a weakass copout argument. People will buy your legit shit if you showed effort in putting forth a dvd. Film-on-disc ain't cutting it, that's the same as a boot. Put a goddamn interview or something on there.

Then there's netflix and all these subscribe services or whatever. That's for lazy casuals. People are too comfortable to get off their fatasses to go shop in a store. They're almost gone now. Blame yourselves for that.

I wish I could go in a Media Play, Suncoast, or FYE and browse the tiny martial arts sections again. That ain't possible now because of Walmart and fat lazyasses wanting to buy everything online.

[Killer Meteor]

To be fair, Tokyo Shock, Image and Dragon Dyansty all had financial problems that affected them far more than a few Shaws not selling.

 

I feel the boat was missed, and that Shaw US releases should have come in 2004 on the back of Kill Bill.

[reason108]

2 hours ago, Killer Meteor said:

To be fair, Tokyo Shock, Image and Dragon Dyansty all had financial problems that affected them far more than a few Shaws not selling.

 

I feel the boat was missed, and that Shaw US releases should have come in 2004 on the back of Kill Bill.

 

 

Yes!

 

[Writ]

On 3/21/2017 at 10:11 PM, AgriWuxia said:

Advances in technology may well introduce younger viewers to the Shaw universe, and it is my hope that the catalogue benefits from this. But the inescapable reality is these viewers will lack the direct connection to the period of their initial release, through no fault of their own, simply the passage of time. @Writ, as a younger viewer how do you relate to the presentation of the Shaw films? Do you think they would have more relevance if you had lived through the period of initial release? Or am I showing my age!!!?

Thing is, my opinion might not provide a good idea of what younger people might think of the stuff. I, like many others here, grew up surrounded by oldschool martial arts films. The first film I can ever remember watching was a Jackie Chan film, maybe sometime around 1999 when I was about 5. Now I didn't go out and seek them, it just so happened that my dad loved them and so I'd catch them while he was watching, not really caring about what I was watching, but more about being fascinated with moving images on a screen than anything else. While I never really grew up watching Shaw films, I had always watched Jackie Chan/Sammo Hung films regardless of whether they were martial arts films or not (I know this is slightly contradicting my first post on this thread which was more a generalisation of my experience, but take this as a more definitive version). I'm also Chinese with Cantonese ancestry so watching these films really felt like home to me even though I had never lived in a Chinese speaking country.

So to answer your question, the films do have relevance to me. I don't think having lived through that time period would have changed much simply because I grew up with similar stuff anyway about 20-25 years after their initial release. But do take note that my circumstances are quite a bit different from others - I'm sure that other people my age into Shaw films might have a different mindset!

20 hours ago, De Ming Li said:

@Writ  The lack of interest from Mainland Chinese in Shaw films or any other martial arts cinema from the 60's and 70's could possibly be explained as a result of historical fluke. China underwent quite disastrous social upheaval during that era while Hong Kong and Taiwan obviously didn't experience that trauma. Those that grew up in the latter two Chinese territories would I assume have all the time in the world for leisure activities while their Mainland cousins were not nearly as fortunate. Even today, I would mention the Shaw Brothers on some mainland internet forums and the overwhelming response is a big blank silence, I reckon 99% of them don't know about the Shaw films and very unfortunately also don't give one iota about them either (should anyone like myself futilely try to get them into it). To them, old films = unglamorous rubbish (yes that's their mentality), now to be fair most Hong Kongers and Taiwanese don't care much for these films either but the Mainlanders are uniquely ignorant due to historical circumstances. East Asians in general being the conformists that most of us are simply follow the latest fashion trends often regardless of the actual quality of the content, now if I sound judgemental then it's because I dare say quite a few members here would agree with my (IMHO) quite plain and accurate observations. There is, to put it plainly, for us a profound lack of curiosity into the past and more damningly the result is good "products" (obviously not just films) get lost into the abyss time and again. At the end of the day, it's the Chinese themselves that need to rescue these films as historical legacy and while Celestial have done a good job so far I'm not optimistic about wooing future generations to these movies, though I pray that time will prove me wrong.

Yup, that's pretty much all true. Mainlanders in general don't care a whole lot about movies other than to pass 2 hours. Oh I could rant for ages about how watching movies in a Chinese cinema totally sucks because people there don't understand "cinema manners", but this isn't the place for that. That's not even to mention that the vast majority of Chinese movies these days are pretty crap in that they are commercialised in the most shameless ways whereas in Hollywood we're still getting a pretty even split. But hey, even if the Chinese aren't the most demanding of movie goers - they are relatively new the medium to be fair - I've seen a growing trend where Chinese people are slowly becoming fed up with the kind of crap that's being made in China these days, so it might be a sign of slightly more interest in film itself, but who knows.

On an interesting side note though, most people know who Run Run Shaw is because he donated a lot of money to a bunch of different schools in China. Here's a portrait of him that I saw in the library of Yunnan University.

When my friend had brought me to see this portrait, I had asked her if she knew what he did. She didn't. Take that how you will.

15 hours ago, masterofoneinchpunch said:

To be fair about all new generations: they are starting out tabula rasa.  However, I am not optimistic as well, but I am doing my best to help: lend films, talk about them, write about them (yes I should improve this aspect) and as usual being the crazy guy in the coffee shop (drinking tea) and spouting off about film.  I never understand people's lack of curiosity and it is not always about the past.  Sometimes I think I'm the only person asking questions.  I'm sure you feel the same way.

I'm also trying to get more and more people into film but it seems people my age are almost allergic to non-commercial stuff. I probably talk too much about film to my friends and I'm sure they get pissed off. I've been trying to get some friends to watch Moon for about 5 years at this point and that's only entry level sci-fi and not even an old film! One of these people gave in and watched Blade Runner and blamed me for recommending a boring movie! But I'm still not giving up. People just don't know what they're missing out.

[Karlos]

I find myself having some very odd conversations with people about “film” now.

It’s impossible not to conclude that film is something more disposable to people in general these days than perhaps it once was.

Blockbusters and “popular films” are the only films out there now, apparently.  And they all must be brand new or made relatively recent.

The idea of watching something “old” or “foreign” is anathema, it seems.

BUT there will always be great films being produced and/or discovered, and there will always be film fans who will seek these out.

[DragonClaws]

While I was in my final year at University, some Chinese students moved into the accommodation where I lived. One night I ended up attending one of their birthday parties. Through my very limited ability to pronounce Hong Kong stars names(thanks to the many Bey Logan commentaries I heard at the time). I was able to strike up a limited conversation about Asian cinema. They knew Jackie Chan and Sammo Hung, Yuen Biao, Bruce Lee, Jet Li and Chow Yun Fat. What amazed them was the fact these films even had a following in the West. The pre 2000 movies rarely showed up on T.V they said, and if they did it was mainly the bigger stars mentioned above. They were more up date with what was then the latest productions. They downloaded all their movies or bought them on VCD. As their English got better, I could talk more about it with them. My impression was that they treated cinema very differently to how we did in the West. Like people have already mentioned here in this thread. Films were a here and now form of entertainment not to be saved. This even fits old Shaw Brothers production method of churning out multiple films all the time. When I showed them some of my DVD's of old Hong Kong titles, they would find it so funny to find older films even they couldn't access in China. I don't think they ever fully understood why I would have a copy of a 1970s Hong Kong production. That said, Jackie Chan and Bruce Lee were still a big deal and sometimes we'd watch their films.

Computer games were a much more popular thing with them. I've yet to meet a group of people who could pick up a new game so quickly. I'm far from a games expert , but I had friends who were serious gamers. None of them could compete with the Chinese players they took on.

I guess the question of if Shaw Brothers movie fans are a dying breed. Could also be tagged onto the discussions about why Martial Arts movie forums, are much quiter now. Just as @masterofoneinchpunch said, its always being a niche genre anyway. Even when there were a lot more movies being sold in stores and online. While you can make an educated guess about what the futurew holds. You never know how things are really going to be or turn out in years to come.

[SANTI]

SHAW BROTHER FILMS ARE LIVE AND WELL IN MEXICO. WHAT MORE WERE TAKING IT TO A WHOLE NEW LEVEL HERE. WERE IN PROGRESS OF BUILDING A MUSEUM DEDICATED TO MANY OF OF THIS GREAT STARS AND OTHER HONG KONG ACTORS. WE JUST HAD LO MANG HERE WITH US TO DO THE GROUND BREAKING. AND WERE ADDING BRONZE BUST OF THE LATE ALEXANDER FU SHENG AND LAU KAR LUENG TO OUR COLLECTION TO BE DISPLAYED.

[Iron_Leopard]

On 4/13/2017 at 1:28 PM, SANTI said:

SHAW BROTHER FILMS ARE LIVE AND WELL IN MEXICO. WHAT MORE WERE TAKING IT TO A WHOLE NEW LEVEL HERE. WERE IN PROGRESS OF BUILDING A MUSEUM DEDICATED TO MANY OF OF THIS GREAT STARS AND OTHER HONG KONG ACTORS. WE JUST HAD LO MANG HERE WITH US TO DO THE GROUND BREAKING. AND WERE ADDING BRONZE BUST OF THE LATE ALEXANDER FU SHENG AND LAU KAR LUENG TO OUR COLLECTION TO BE DISPLAYED.

That is so damn cool. 

Actually this whole thread is amazing. So much great information. It could almost be considered for pinning.

[Tex Killer]

I know nobody who loves Shaw in real life..my gf hates them, she can accept tony jaa movies as she is thai. Some friends who have bit taste like movies with simon yuen. And few modern day jackie chans.

Tho they are bit more acceptable in yankee flicks like american ninja, van dammes...

wish more would love shaws today as no purchases=no new releases...

[Iron_Leopard]

22 minutes ago, Tex Killer said:

I know nobody who loves Shaw in real life..my gf hates them, she can accept tony jaa movies as she is thai. Some friends who have bit taste like movies with simon yuen. And few modern day jackie chans.

Tho they are bit more acceptable in yankee flicks like american ninja, van dammes...

wish more would love shaws today as no purchases=no new releases...

I feel like the term "acquired taste" was invented for Shaw Brothers movies lol.

[sym8]

As long as WE are here talking about S/B I think there will always be a heart beat.

[Tex Killer]

5 minutes ago, Iron_Leopard said:

I feel like the term "acquired taste" was invented for Shaw Brothers movies lol.

Well some friends like so called new wave movies..they find wire stuff interesting but not old skool...I cannot complain they are young persons