Are we Living in the New Era of Kung-Fu Movie Ignorance?

[One Armed Boxer]

Hopefully not too much of a controversial question, but one that's been on my mind.  Recently I've seen an increasing number of reviews and comments (not specifically on this forum I should point out!), which remind me of the days of Bruce Lee's movies being billed as Karate extravaganza's, or the latest Japanese Kung-Fu blockbuster.

The reason being is the rise of Mainland Chinese cinema, and the HK cinema we know and love.  After writing up a recent feature on the 2 HBO produced kung-fu movies, 'Master of the Shadowless Kick: Wong Kei-Ying' and 'Master of the Drunken Fist: Beggar So', I searched for other reviews on the net to check out what the general opinion was (a habit of mine, if I plan to review something, I don't like to read anyone else's opinion until after I've written my own).

At least 2 reviews I came across stated that the movies are a sad reflection of the state modern HK cinema is in, even though Hong Kong had zero involvement in both productions - they're both 100% Mainland Chinese.  The same applies for the likes of 'Who Am I 2015', search the net for reviews on that one, and you'll come across similar statements declaring what a sad state HK action cinema is in.  Again, another movie which Hong Kong had nothing to do with, it's 100% Mainland Chinese.

So my question really is, at least for those on the forum, do you feel there's no difference between a Mainland Chinese movie, and a Hong Kong movie?  Admittedly I tend to watch more of these movies than any reasonable person would suffer through, so for me I feel like they're night and day - the language, the locations, the feel - a Hong Kong movie for me is as different to a Mainland China movie as a Japanese movie is different to a Korean one.

Yet it seems generally that whenever Mainland China releases a new action movie, most reviewers on the net write about them from the perspective of being a Hong Kong movie, which I find really frustrating.  Yes, Hong Kong cinema isn't what it used to be, but it pains me to see the crap that Mainland China produces being referenced to as examples of bad Hong Kong movies, when the territory that put out so many of the classics we know and love had nothing to do with them.

Just like Bruce Lee's flicks weren't karate movies, my hope is that Mainland China movies will soon stop being referred to as Hong Kong movies.

[Killer Meteor]

Mind you, how often have Taiwanese productions been passed off as HK? So many books claim all HK cinema did between Bruce and Jackie was Bruceploitation!

[KenHashibe]

Calling Bruce Lee movies karate movies is like a stab to the heart. Calling Mainland Chinese movies Hong Kong movies is somewhat forgivable. At least they got the country right.

But yeah, Mainland Chinese movies are totally different from Hong Kong movies to us, but I don't think the average person could tell the difference.

[OpiumKungFuCracker]

Mainland Chinese movies are complete garbage. imo. Or maybe I haven't been seeing any word of mouth lately. The hey days of Wong Kar Wai and the John Woo's of classic HK cinema is long gone. Holy shit do I miss those decades. 60s,70s,80s,90s, Those glory years are gone bruh.  Where is Johnny To????? Seriously, where is he? Did he stop making movies? J/K

55 minutes ago, KenHashibe said:

But yeah, Mainland Chinese movies are totally different from Hong Kong movies to us, but I don't think the average person could tell the difference.

Most def. But I could definitely tell for sure, LOL.  One is complete garbage while the other is essential viewing. 

Please tell me Drug Wars was HK and not Mainland China??? Oh fuck I have a feeling it's mainland China production. I think that was the last great Chinese movie I saw TBH.

[One Armed Boxer]

47 minutes ago, OpiumKungFuCracker said:

Where is Johnny To????

Have you seen last years 'Three' yet OKFC?  Nice to see him returning to the Hong Kong crime flick!

47 minutes ago, OpiumKungFuCracker said:

Please tell me Drug Wars was HK and not Mainland China??? Oh fuck I have a feeling it's mainland China production. I think that was the last great Chinese movie I saw TBH.

'Drug War' was a HK-Mainland China co-production that shot in China.  I remember reading that one of the reasons why that movie got away with so much, compared to what the Chinese government usually allow, is that once the leaders of the drug gang are revealed, they're played by pretty much a who's who of Milkyway's Hong Kong actor stable.  It goes a long way to show the mentality of the Mainland towards HK, most likely revenge since they spent so long being cast as drug mules / assassins / killers / thieves etc in HK cinema prior to the handover.

47 minutes ago, OpiumKungFuCracker said:

Mainland Chinese movies are complete garbage. imo.

The mainstream stuff, especially the action movies, I'd agree absolutely.  It pains me to see complete tripe like 'Switch' and 'Bounty Hunters' being mentioned in the same category of HK movies like 'Call of Heroes' and 'My Beloved Bodyguard'.  There's no comparison.

I have seen some excellent independent Chinese movies though, like the crime flick 'Black Coal, Thin Ice'.  The irony being that independent movies aren't screened in China, so the audiences who can enjoy it are all overseas.

I think Mainland China has some promising talent for sure, directors like Xu Haofeng ('The Sword Identity', 'Judge Archer', and 'The Master'), but again, these productions feel completely different than HK movies, and shouldn't be mistaken as such.

[mpm74]

Mainland films definitely feel different than HK films. There might be some exceptions (Xu Haofeng, Jia Zhangke) but...

Whereas Hong Kong action films have somewhat of a creative edge, Mainland films tend to be soulless knock-offs of something they wish they were. As a subscriber to https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3IPOsELCb-fBHTfPANZa4w, I've seen a chunk load of trailers for MLC films and they are bad. It's almost as if they weren't made by actual people, but "generated" in some computer that spits out a below-average movie with mostly below average stars, despite an occasional big HK star here and there. Even their title sequences.... all this over compensating computer generated blocky/rocky letters... no imagination whatsoever. 

It's bad a enough we barely get any new Hong Kong movies that are good, yet we're getting more MLC films than gawd!

Then, as mentioned, we have the HK-Mainland China co-production, and these tend to lean more towards the HK side of things (+).

[Iron_Leopard]

I'm far from an Eastern film expert but even I can tell the difference between Hong Kong and Mainland China martial arts films. 

But I'm sure it was worse back in the day like you mentioned. Bruce Lee doing Karate lol.

[SMK]

4 hours ago, KenHashibe said:

Calling Bruce Lee movies karate movies is likely a stab to the heart.

[Karlos]

Alas, the mainstream press couldn't care less about differentiating between HK cinema and Mainland Chinese cinema, I think.  Most of the time it's all "Chop Socky" bollocks to them, regardless of where it's made.

But as long as actual fans of the MA genre give a damn then all is not lost.  Hopefully, newer fans will find ways to seek out sites like here and COF and find out the facts from writers who are still passionate about the scene.

All that said, I think Asian action cinema as a whole is in the worst state it's perhaps ever been in, and I can't see it getting any better.  I hope I'm wrong.

[OpiumKungFuCracker]

7 hours ago, One Armed Boxer said:

Have you seen last years 'Three' yet OKFC?  Nice to see him returning to the Hong Kong crime flick!

I have seen some excellent independent Chinese movies though, like the crime flick 'Black Coal, Thin Ice'.  The irony being that independent movies aren't screened in China, so the audiences who can enjoy it are all overseas.

I think Mainland China has some promising talent for sure, directors like Xu Haofeng ('The Sword Identity', 'Judge Archer', and 'The Master'), but again, these productions feel completely different than HK movies, and shouldn't be mistaken as such.

I have not seen Three yet so I need to see it asap!! Along with Black Coal,Thin Ice and others you mentioned. Thank you!!!

[Iron_Leopard]

4 hours ago, Karlos said:

Alas, the mainstream press couldn't care less about differentiating between HK cinema and Mainland Chinese cinema, I think.  Most of the time it's all "Chop Socky" bollocks to them, regardless of where it's made.

But as long as actual fans of the MA genre give a damn then all is not lost.  Hopefully, newer fans will find ways to seek out sites like here and COF and find out the facts from writers who are still passionate about the scene.

All that said, I think Asian action cinema as a whole is in the worst state it's perhaps ever been in, and I can't see it getting any better.  I hope I'm wrong.

Even worse than the second half of the 90s?

[One Armed Boxer]

4 hours ago, Karlos said:

All that said, I think Asian action cinema as a whole is in the worst state it's perhaps ever been in, and I can't see it getting any better.  I hope I'm wrong.

I'd have to disagree with this.  I think the darkest period for Asian action cinema was the 5 years spanning from 1998 - 2002.

Most of the big Hong Kong stars had jumped ship after the handover to try their hand in Hollywood, and 'Ong Bak' had yet to come along to remind us that other countries in Asia were capable of delivering high impact action as well.  There just wasn't a whole lot going on during this period, marking it as possibly the leanest era in terms of the regions action output.

Comparatively, I'd say today the scene is relatively healthy.  Hong Kong, Mainland China, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, and the Philippines all have martial arts movies slated to be released this year, which is the widest range of variety we've had in quite some time.

[mpm74]

4 hours ago, One Armed Boxer said:

I'd have to disagree with this.  I think the darkest period for Asian action cinema was the 5 years spanning from 1998 - 2002.

Most of the big Hong Kong stars had jumped ship after the handover to try their hand in Hollywood, and 'Ong Bak' had yet to come along to remind us that other countries in Asia were capable of delivering high impact action as well.  There just wasn't a whole lot going on during this period, marking it as possibly the leanest era in terms of the regions action output.

Comparatively, I'd say today the scene is relatively healthy.  Hong Kong, Mainland China, Indonesia, Vietnam, Cambodia, and the Philippines all have martial arts movies slated to be released this year, which is the widest range of variety we've had in quite some time.

Despite the politics, some great creamy little gems that came out around this time.... Fulltime Killer, A Hero Never Dies, Time and Tide, The Victim... 

[ThunderScore]

I've had to live there all of my life.

[DragonClaws]

On 19/02/2017 at 11:54 AM, One Armed Boxer said:

Just like Bruce Lee's flicks weren't karate movies, my hope is that Mainland China movies will soon stop being referred to as Hong Kong movies.

Die hard fans will always know the difference between the Hong Kong and Mainand movies. You can forgive people in the 70s, for mixing up Karate movies with the Bruce Lee productons. Just becuase it was all new back then, and there wasn't the same amount of reliable information. That said, anyone who had spent some years watching the movies must have been able to see the diffference. There's no excuse for it today however, reviewers could at least look up the origin of the new movies. Which is much easier to do, than it is with some older titles.

Nice topic OneArmedBoxer.

This old Big Boss poster even has the words karate on the poster, karate/kung fu.

[One Armed Boxer]

4 minutes ago, DragonClaws said:

Die hard fans will always know the difference between the Hong Kong and Mainand movies. You can forgive people in the 70s, for mixing up Karate movies with the Bruce Lee productons. Just becuase it was all new back then, and there wasn't the same amount of reliable information. That said, anyone who had spent some years watching the movies must have been able to see the diffference. There's no excuse for it today however, reviewers could at least look up the origin of the new movies. Which is much easier to do, than it is with some older titles.

Nice topic OneArmedBoxer.

Cheers @DragonClaws, and you make some very valid points.  I guess that's what irks me the most, it's not 'mainstream media' that's labeling these movies incorrectly, it's dedicated Asian movie websites that are doing it.  The assumption that anything that comes out of China is a Hong Kong movie, recalls the days of anything with people fighting in it being labelled a karate movie...it's completely incorrect.  Over the years we've already lost great review sites like kungfucinema.com and kungfucultcinema.com, so I'd like to think that the remaining ones at least put in the smallest amount of effort that it takes to check where a movie is actually from.  We never saw any reviews of 'The Raid' exclaiming how Thailand has really knocked it out of the park with their latest effort, so why do we need to constantly see Mainland China movies being referenced as examples of how poor Hong Kong cinema is these days.

[DragonClaws]

2 minutes ago, One Armed Boxer said:

so I'd like to think that the remaining ones at least put in the smallest amount of effort that it takes to check where a movie is actually from.

Some people will also look to these reviews for the facts, and repeat the same mistakes in their own writing/reviews. Everyone makes mistakes don't get me wrong, but to continually label mainland moves as H.K productions is not good.

[masterofoneinchpunch]

On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 3:54 AM, One Armed Boxer said:

Hopefully not too much of a controversial question, but one that's been on my mind.  Recently I've seen an increasing number of reviews and comments (not specifically on this forum I should point out!), which remind me of the days of Bruce Lee's movies being billed as Karate extravaganza's, or the latest Japanese Kung-Fu blockbuster.

...

At least 2 reviews I came across stated that the movies are a sad reflection of the state modern HK cinema is in, even though Hong Kong had zero involvement in both productions - they're both 100% Mainland Chinese.  ...

So my question really is, at least for those on the forum, do you feel there's no difference between a Mainland Chinese movie, and a Hong Kong movie?  ...

Yet it seems generally that whenever Mainland China releases a new action movie, most reviewers on the net write about them from the perspective of being a Hong Kong movie, which I find really frustrating.  Yes, Hong Kong cinema isn't what it used to be, but it pains me to see the crap that Mainland China produces being referenced to as examples of bad Hong Kong movies, when the territory that put out so many of the classics we know and love had nothing to do with them.

Just like Bruce Lee's flicks weren't karate movies, my hope is that Mainland China movies will soon stop being referred to as Hong Kong movies.

The newer generation of reviewers tend to be more ignorant mainly because of their age and lack of viewing/studying/understanding of movies.  But even many "experienced" reviewers state wrong canards all-the-time (Yojimbo is a remake of Red Harvest; Jackie Chan did porn; John Gilbert's voice killed his career; Roscoe Arcubkle's career was destroyed after the trials etc...).  But part of this is understandable.  There is just so much damn information to know.  What happens is that many read a review/book/magazine/online and then repeat various information.  Someone read karate and Bruce Lee together and then passes it on.

There can be a huge difference between a strict Hong Kong film versus a Mainland film and not just including the Cantonese versus Mandarin dialect (of course we know that for several years Mandarin was the choice language of HK films.)  Mainland films have to pass a strict censorship.  Bad cops -- no way that is going to be a Mainland film.  Time Travel, too much violence, sex, getting away with drug use, eating your neighbor -- must be a Hong Kong film.  Mainland films seem to get away with less than Hollywood films under the Hays Code era (for those interested in cinema I highly recommend checking out precode (before 1934) films in Hollywood; it is hilarious to see decapitations, nudity, drug use, homosexual characters etc... that you would not see for several decades in Hollywood film.)  There can be a certain banality to it.  Though some smart directors like Johnnie To were able to get around issues in Drug War for example (my review states several).

But, and this is a big butt, trying to sell to the Mainland market (you saw this earlier; though now coproductions are quite common which also affects what you can do in your filming; before the rule was changed their were even different versions of films where you can see a different ending -- a Mainland ending like with Infernal Affairs) can affect the product to make sure it would sale and not offend (this also affected earlier HK films even pre-handover; political humor was often avoided though their are exceptions).  So I can sometimes understand getting a coproduction confused with a strictly Mainland film -- also sometimes their is HK money involved, but just a little.  So from that aspect I can give some leeway.  Also the former HK actors/directors in Mainland/coproduction films makes things even more confusing. However, I think we could all agree a little more research could do wonders for these "reviewers."

One aspect that can truly through some viewers off is the mixture of films with both kung fu and karate.  Well it tends to mostly be a kung fu film usually with a bad guy in karate like in The Chinese Connection/Fist of Fury or take your pick of anti-Japanese films (or even a good guy like Jim Kelly in Enter the Dragon.)  

[lungfei]

They make It seam the only indie fu titles that exist are master of the flying guillotine and snake in the eagles shadow/drunken master.

 

[ShaOW!linDude]

On 2/19/2017 at 3:13 PM, Karlos said:

On 2/19/2017 at 7:49 PM, One Armed Boxer said:

I'd have to disagree with this.  I think the darkest period for Asian action cinema was the 5 years spanning from 1998 - 2002.

All that said, I think Asian action cinema as a whole is in the worst state it's perhaps ever been in, and I can't see it getting any better.  I hope I'm wrong.

I don't know. I think I get where Karlos is coming from with this. Honestly, when I hear about a new MA film coming out of China nowadays, I just sort of roll my eyes. I personally find most of them to be overly-produced wastes of time, relying on cinematic schtick rather than solid choreography. The good ones are so few and far between. But you're correct in that other countries are stepping up to the plate to deliver incredible MA movies, though those also come few and far between.

[HyperDrive]

Yes, we are in a new era of ignorance. For example, how many people outside of collector circles and these forums know the term "wuxia?" Also, is it improper to label modern mainland stuff "kung fu" since it's more likely sport wushu?

[Tosh]

On 2/20/2017 at 11:22 AM, DragonClaws said:

 

This old Big Boss poster even has the words karate on the poster, karate/kung fu.

I can understand Bruce Lee movies should be labeled as Kung Fu, but technically since he's fighting Japanese there would be Karate in this? Granted Kung Fu should be over the Karate part for this poster.

[ThunderScore]

is this like all colas being referred to as Coke?

[Karlos]

To be honest, I should’ve explained myself a little better: when I said the scene is in a bad way I was talking about the quality of the product (subjective, I know) rather than the amount of product. 

Like @ShaOW!linDude, I see a lot of the mainland stuff and it’s, to me, just bland, bland pap – but that’s subjective and some cats may dig it.

Even most of the HK stuff now – pretty lacking.

But there’s always good stuff being produced, it’s just that nowadays there’s way less of it.

I’m remaining positive – we’ve got Headshot coming up, Noo Woo with Manhunt which looks fantastic, and there’ll always be others.

If I’m honest, part of the problem lies with me: I want the greats to still be great, and I want classic after classic being churned out, and that just ain’t happening.

I guess I should learn to enjoy the few things that I think are good, and focus less on the homogenised, soulless crap.

[Tosh]

7 hours ago, HyperDrive said:

Yes, we are in a new era of ignorance. For example, how many people outside of collector circles and these forums know the term "wuxia?" Also, is it improper to label modern mainland stuff "kung fu" since it's more likely sport wushu?

You just hit the nail on the head.

 

I really lost interest in HK/Chinese newer movies probably after Jet Li's Hero, HK lost it's idenity soon after the takeover, every new movie I've tried to watch just melts into the same movie to me(exceptions of course,) so at the moment I'd be just as ignorant despite my knowledge of old school KF. Granted I haven't watched anything new since Ip Man 2 and was already abondoning it at that point, I'm sure there are a couple movies I need to see.

The quoted comment hits home with me, the fighting became to "flowy", chain punches and jumping twirls all to common, cgi enhanced ugh.