What's your style? (Which martial arts do you study?)

[jiujitsu77]

i wouldnt grapple in a barfight or street fight (meaning i wouldnt plan on ending up there). but if I DO GET TAKEN TO THE GROUND ill know what to do, as well as bite, pull and gouge. ive been in a few fights (and im not proud of it) and ive used jj because that was where i ended up. i finished and got up as quickly as i could. im coming from the "its only a fair fight if i win" kinda thought.

even my jj instructor pretty much says no fight is ever 1 on 1. its just a question of how you move and react when put on the ground.

and fabhui...please don't take this as me being a dick. i see you have years of experience and respect you a great deal...but in regards to hartsell, this is what i could find as a bio (since me no good at language)

"Larry Hartsell began his martial arts training in Kenpo karate with Ed Parker in 1961. He earned a black belt from Parker and went on to earn a black belt in judo as well. In 1967 he started training with Bruce Lee. He served as a military police officer in the army, including combat time in Vietnam. After returning from the war, he continued training at Bruce Lee's school under the guidance of both Bruce Lee and his senior instructor Dan Inosanto. His training included private lessons at the Bel Air home of Bruce Lee. Hartsell continued his training with Dan Inosanto for the next 35 years. Hartsell's research of techniques resulted in additions and innovations to the grappling that now forms the core of the Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do Grappling system."

i understand when it comes to jkd there are MANY interpretations, but how do you not include hartsell's influence? or inosanto's for that matter? im sure you have a reason i just don't understand it.

i know i favor jiujitsu (mainly for what it has done to me as a person), but i also know it is not the be all and end all hence why i train in anything i can. and i know favoring a martial art is also dangerous, since it sets up my own limitations.

any opinions on the dog brothers?

good discussion good thread and good people. way better than sherdog

[KUNG FU BOB]

I agree. Interesting people sharing ideas... and the world spins on.

I think it's funny that all these people here have various, dangerous fighting skills, love violent movies, seem to be predominantly men (therefore in possession of their own personal testosterone supplies), but all manage to have reasonable, informed debate like gentlemen. Meanwhile, my wife costantly tells me about the vicious fighting, threat hurling, family cursing, name calling, I'll-find-out-who-you-are-and-expose-your-home-address crazies that seem fit to be tied on... a her ladie's Home Shopping Bulletin Board QVC forum!

[gravedigger666]

I am not swearing by 2 hands on the bibble grabbling arts are most effective for self defence.some styles are not meant for everyone,bodytypes vary.Even as there are 10`s holds which do not require power I doubt could I hold 190cm&100 kg muscular guy still.Each style is as good as exponent anyway.But I know for sure I would not be able to escape strong hold if opponent knows exactly what he is doing.Gracie family had(do they still?) long line of defeated opponets...it has also happened and will happen several times in future martial arts experts will lose to sucker puncher,one lucky blow can take someone out who is faster and lot more experienced.

I did read half lifetime ago and correct me if I am wrong bruce lee who was as fast as lighting had fight with kung-fu master(was it in san francisco???) and bruce won.But he has not happy at all with it,fight took minutes instead of him wanting to win in few seconds.Now I do not remember was that main reason he started to create jkd.

[jiujitsu77]

the gracies are on the same playing field as everyone else now that the art is practiced by millions

QVC...HA!

[fabhui]

For me it is all about how can I finish an aggressor as quickly, as safely and as efficiently as possible. How I can cut down everything to the bare minimum to get the job done. To have 4 or 5 techniques instead of 10, 20, 50, 100 that I can use for any and every situation that is thrown at me...This is what Jeet Kune Do is!

Bruce art is an extremely simple one technique wise, it is getting to the level where you can actually make it work for real which is the difficult part. It's all about stripping away the unessentials until you are left with a handful of techniques that you can use against any given situation. It is this I have found which makes the art extremely effective in real situations.

Unfortunately most people think what is commonly known as Jeet Kune Do Concepts is what Bruce's art is all about but nothing could be further from the truth. There are big plans this month by the Bruce Lee Foundation to clean up this mess and to reeducate the public as to what Jeet Kune Do is which is not an accumilation of techniques from various fighting arts.

This youtube video clearly shows what is wrong with what people think Jeet Kuno Do is:

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Bruce Lee himsef wrote the following:

X is Jeet Kune Do

Y is the style you will represent

To represent and teach Y one

should drill its members according

to the preaching of Y.

This is the same with anyone

who is qualified and has been

approved To represent X.

To justify by interfusing X and Y

is basically the denying of

Y~~~~~~~~~ but still calling it Y.

A man, as you put it, is one

who is noble to stick to the

road he has chosen.

A garden of rose will yield

Rose. And a garden of violets

will yield violets.

With regard to Larry Hartsell and with all due respect the majority of what he was teaching had very little to do with Jeet Kune Do. It is a well known fact that his training time with Bruce Lee was very minimal and that his main influence was Dan Inosanto which was evident in what he was doing. I've nothing against with what he was teaching or anything but it would be like me doing Muay Thai and then taking someone to the ground and choking them out and still calling it Muay Thai...it simply wouldn't be!

Here are a couple of youtube videos of former Glasgow Bouncer and fulltime Jeet Kune Do instructor Tommy Carruthers who I highly rate and so does the board of directors of the BLF!!!

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rJWUXoL6XXU

[jiujitsu77]

no one argues with you that the first video is a load of crap. alot of bruce lee "purists" and misinformed people tend to hold on to things that look good but will never use

and ive seen tommy's hands before. some of the fastest ive ever seen. but that still doe's not negate the fact that if someone took him to the ground, would he know what to do (which im totally certain he would but that isnt the point)? i myself said before that i wouldnt be so inclined to apply a choke, but rather put my thumb in his eye, and if need be, then choke him. i know the difference between sport and combat, and hopefully, having trained for both situations i can get out of a nasty spot.

[fabhui]

i myself said before that i wouldnt be so inclined to apply a choke, but rather put my thumb in his eye, and if need be, then choke him.

Why would you need to choke someone after gouging their eye? If for some amazing reason they were still a threat why wouldn't you hit them and knock them out with one shot instead of running the risk of grappling and things taking a turn for the worse??

I'm not saying you are wrong but to me there is a big difference between the two as to what is more efficient, safe and effective.

i know the difference between sport and combat, and hopefully, having trained for both

Maybe this is where the difference between us is as I do not train for sport or competition.

Just to point out to anyone reading this, I am not trying to argue with jiujitsu77 and I'm positive he knows this already. Maybe we have a difference of opinion on things but for me it makes an interesting debate.

[jiujitsu77]

well perhaps maybe by opening up an option of applying the choke, so i dont kill him, and so he is out cold. i walk away healthy and not going to jail. i guess it just depends upon the situation and where someone else's agression takes you (or yours for that matter)

that's fine that you don't train for competition. again i also enjoy the sport aspect of martial arts. but i also know there is no marquees of queensburry rules on the street. what i do for fun and what i do for survival are two totally different things. when i train for any sort of "sport" competition, it helps me attain certain levels of physical capability that i would need to defend myself. and besides, its hard to keep training partners if you keep kicking them in the crotch or gouging their eyes out. what works in an mma ring or "octacage" won't work on the street, but to have the ferocity of an mma fighter might just help you succeed in winning a fight.

let me ask you this (in regards to the gouging-choke debate). do you go for a gumptee (forgive spelling) everytime someone throws a jab? do you use a jab as a knockout punch? from what i see...everything is a setup for something else

[fabhui]

For myself when I was training to compete I was finding that it was sneaking into my other areas of training and creating what I would call bad habits. I myself cannot see how it is possible to train for street defence and sport and to be able to seperate the two so that you can switch at will between one or the other. If you are doing thousands of reps or training in a certain way then it becomes built into your muscle memory and into your neuro-system whereby something happens and you instinctively react without thinking with whatever it is that you have been drilling thousands of times. If that means someone spends their time doing thousands of semi-contact strikes then when the **** hits the fan that is exactly what they are going to do.

You will have to forgive me but I honestly have no idea what a gumptee is.

I can tell you in Jeet Kune Do there is no jab to set up an opponent. We have the straight lead punch which is a knockout punch that is thrown from any angle and in any position, by that I mean you don't have to be in the bai jong stance to throw it, you can me standing in a neutral relaxed manner and throw it with knockout capability which is a lot more realistic.

We don't have any setup techniques, everything we use is a stopping technique to stop an attacker preferably in one shot. By that I mean if I can jab someone in the face then I can hit them with a straight lead instead and knock them out, if I can kick them on the thigh then I can side kick them and break their knee instead.

I am specifically talking about street fighting and only when you have no other option but to fight. If you have tried to talk a situation down, tried to psyche out an aggressor or you can't escape and your safety is still threatened then in my opinion you are well within your rights to do whatever is necessary to protect yourself or your loved ones.

[Chinatown Kid]

Sure I see your point, anything goes on the street and your looking for the most efficent and quickest way possible to end the fight. No method is fullproof though and it's possible you might miss that eye-gouge or sidekick to the knee and then someone rushes and locks onto you, maybe someone really strong. I'm no expert on JKD fab and you being a student of it know alot more than me, but didn't Bruce include grappling techniques in his method? Seems I read somewhere he was close friends with Jiujitsu master Wally Jay and recognized the effectiveness of the techniques. There was alot of Martial Artists from different styles he respected and admired for sure. I know Bruce believed in stripping away the unessentials in combat though and his famous quote of " having no way as way and rejecting/disregard what is useless". Hell it's all good though, we are all fellow Martial Artists and I have respect for you all.

[jiujitsu77]

a gumptee (again me no good speak right) i believe is a destruction to the bicep or tricep when an opponent throws a jab. i am not to certain as to what side of the jkd spectrum that you come from. i know there are different approaches (ie straightblast gym, CDF acamies), and some feel that the incorporation of philipino boxing isnt as useful as other schools would think

i just know this. yeah ok i train to "compete" for jiujitsu. it puts my mind at ease (like tennis). Can i use jiujitsu to my advantage? you bet your ass i can and have. have i trained to fight to just live? yes i have. have i had to hurt someone that bad yet. no. can i? yes.....maybe....i won't know yet. and thank god..

jiujitsu works. ive seen it work. and in the real world. and i have seen jiujitsu fail. in the real world. anyone can get it any given day

[fabhui]

Chinatown Kid -

but didn't Bruce include grappling techniques in his method? Seems I read somewhere he was close friends with Jiujitsu master Wally Jay

Bruce was well aware of grappling techniques and good grapplers as far back as to when he first arrived in the US. His first student Jesse Glover was a reknowned Judoka who was winning everything and at that time. He also trained with as you say Wally Jay along with other awesome grapplers such as Hayward Nishioka and Gene LeBell but he wasn't training with them to learn how to grapple to fight against grappling, he was using them to work out ways of countering grappling.

There are a few grappling techniques in Jeet Kune Do but not the kind where you need to put both hands on the guy to apply them. The main goal in Jeet Kune Do is to hit and do damage and to put the guy out before he knows the fight is on.

No method is fullproof though and it's possible you might miss that eye-gouge or sidekick to the knee and then someone rushes and locks onto you, maybe someone really strong.

If you did miss whatever strike you were throwing and someone did rush you and grab you, that doesn't mean you have to grapple with them, there are more efficient ways of dealing with that kind of scenario.

I worked as a bouncer for a few years and never once ended up grappling. One of the guys I worked with had done the doors for 17yrs and never once grappled, all he had was 3 techniques but that was all he needed. I witnessed him on numerous occasions and all I ever seen him do was the 3 same things and this guy had gone through hundreds of fights using them.

I'm not saying grappling doesn't work but it is definitely not for me and I have 8 years in Judo behind me.

When I was working the doors I saw people end up grappling and getting stabbed, glassed, getting their faces and heads stamped and even jumped on as it puts you in a really vulnerable position.

jiujitsu77 -

a gumptee (again me no good speak right) i believe is a destruction to the bicep or tricep when an opponent throws a jab.

I have never heard of a gumptee but I know the technique you mean and it has absolutely nothing to do with Jeet Kune Do, it comes from the Concepts camp. A sore arm isn't going to stop anyone that is intent on smashing your face into the concrete!

Like I say I'm not disagreeing with what anyone is saying and I don't believe any art is more superior to another, it is all down to how the practitioner trains and unfortunately most these days are not training for reality.

At the end of the day if you can make your art work and you get out of it whatever it is you are seeking then that is all that matters.

My original point was of grappling being an extremely dangerous option to choose in a streetfight and I still stand by it. I have witnessed it first hand way too many times to think anything different.

[jiujitsu77]

so i take it no kali for you then?

[fabhui]

so i take it no kali for you then?

Nope. For me personally there is nothing that is of use in it for me and it does not fit in with the structure of what I do.

It might be different for someone else.

[Chinatown Kid]

Interesting info, thanks for clairifying fabhui. If you are confident in your JKD and can make it work for you then the more power too you, the same goes for all the other Martial Artists on here as well. I guess people have to find what works best for them. I remember reading that Stirling Siliphant, a onetime student of Bruce, remarked that what Bruce taught him was great against a novice but if he went up against seasoned Black Belts he would get slaughtered because Bruce had the skill and attributes to make it work, he did not lol. Some people have the skill to make an art effective while others do not I guess.

[fabhui]

Oh without a doubt you a dead right Chinatown Kid. If you all you do is forms then don't expect to be able to fight, if all you do is spar then don't expect that what you are doing during sparring is going to work in a street fight, they are two completely different animals.

Sparring is a method of finding your opponents weaknesses, moving in and out of range, trying to find and create openings....Fighting is about shutting down your opponent and destroying them.

If you want to be able to fight then your training has to resemble reality based situations.

Wearing street clothes and boots instead of training gear. Getting protective gear on and going all out against an opponent, going all out against multiple attackers, being able to fight out of neutral positions, fighting out of vulnerable positions such as sitting down etc, fighting in different temperatures and weather conditions, fighting in different levels of light, fighting in darkness, fighting with your vision impaired, fighting in enclosed spaces....I can go on and on and on but it's like anything else, if you want to be able to do it for real then your training has to resemble reality.

[Chinatown Kid]

So true Fabhui, agree 100%.

[KUNG FU BOB]

I also whole-heartedly agree with Fabhui.

In Shinowara Jujitsu, besides our regular training, my sensei also made us train in reality based situations. In street clothes, outside, starting out laying face down as though we'd been sucker punched, and defending from there. Fighting with one arm (not our "good" one) as though our other was broken. Attacked by multiple enemies while blindfolded, sitting... All the stuff you said. I'd never had any training like that before, and was happily surprised. During one of my first Jujitsu belt tests I dislocated two of my toes, had a fingernail torn off, and took a hard shot to the eye, but because of the manner in which I was trained I knew that in a real fight I could never stop, so I finished off my opponents. I would NEVER have done that before. Up until that point all of my martial arts "training" was really just learning techniques. Not learning real fighting principles, the truth about combat, or the ways to obtain the mental or physical capacity to withstand any actual attack. In any of the classes I'd taken up to that point, had I been injured I would have stopped, held up my hand up and said "Oh, wait a minute guys, I just got messed up" and taken a breather. Not everyone is training to fight though. A lot of people do it for sport, relaxation, exercise, or because it's cool or fun. It's like anything else. Some people write to create novels. Some people write to chat on a forum, dig? LOL

I'd like to say again that I'm glad everyone here is a gentleman that can speak their mind, debate, question, and explain, without acting like a bunch of egotistical knuckleheads. Bravo! I'M LOVIN' IT!

[bamboo spear]

Traditional Japanese Kokusai Jujutsu and Genbukan Ninpo Taijutsu, which contains kenjutsu, bojutsu and other auxillary weaponry. We also train in Chugoku Kempo (which contains Hakkesho and Kinnajutsu). I boxed before getting into Asian marital arts, so I still enjoy watching boxing and MMA on either TV or Youtube.

[jiujitsu77]

wow! quite the impressive array of traditional japanese arts! that is really cool. major respect dude.

[Jiu-Jitsu-Dragon]

Gracie Jiu-Jitsu

Muay Thai Boxing

[wudangimmortal]

wondering who here practices kung fu in real life?

anyone in the chicagoland area? im trying to get into wing chun or jeet kune do...

[Rebornman]

I took 3.5 years of Northern praying mantis Tam Tui, 3 years of Kyokushin karate and 1 year of Muy Thai. ATM I am trying to find a Wing Chun dojo near me. I woulnd't mind finding a good teacher and studying it for a few years.

While reading up on this thread someone posted the following:

"Then I wisened up and realized, despite what all the martial arts films told me, stuff like horse stance wasnt really applicable in the real world."

I practied horse stancing for about 15 minutes per day 5/week for over 3 years. I once took a bet that some of my friends couldnt budge me. It was $10 if I moved. I had 7 friends pushing and pulling me for about 3 minutes. I only fell when one of them did a flying tackle on my from behind. I ended up winning the bet. In tournaments sweeps never worked on me. Those are 2 benefits I experienced by doing horse stances.

[Jiu-Jitsu-Dragon]

[Xin Long]

wing chun & wushu