Bruce Lee's The Big Boss (Appreciation Thread)

[shukocarl]

Yes you are right the still does show the scene with him choosing the girl (I got mixed up with his earlier visit)...you didn't see Lee's "behind" ;-P the girls POV shot had him filmed from the waist up, as far as I can remember there was no more than about a minute in the room nothing else.

Edited April 12, 2017 by shukocarl
sp

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

11 minutes ago, shukocarl said:

Yes you are right the still does show the scene with him choosing the girl (I got mixed up with his earlier visit)...you didn't see Lee's "behind" ;-P the girls POV shot had him filmed from the waist up, as far as I can remember there was no more than about a minute in the room nothing else.

I assumed that there would've been some more nudity from the chick on it, especially when Cheng is getting dressed and leaves all his remaining money on her belly while she's asleep. From what my sources told me there's some more lascivious content in the "peeping room" scene. Nothing hardcore, mind you, but it's there ;-P

[shukocarl]

Well if there's more to the sequence, it wasn't in that particular print...you did see her boobies of course :-)

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

9 minutes ago, shukocarl said:

Well if there's more to the sequence, it wasn't in that particular print...you did see her boobies of course :-)

I was told that the prostitute and Lee actually did some mouth kissing in the peeping room sequence. Guess Nora Miao isn't going to be amused to know she wasn't his first on screen kiss!

Edited April 12, 2017 by lonesome space

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

@KenHashibe

For those not keeping track, here is the post: http://www.shaolinchamber36.com/kungfufandom/index.php?/topic/22938-september-2017-mutual-movie-review-thread/&page=2&tab=comments#comment-276173

 

Haha, some could say it's a borderline obsession, and they certainly wouldn't be wrong  BB is criminally underrated in seemingly infinite ways, and IMO it's way more worthy of being served as a basis for much of Bruce Lee's pop culture presence than Enter The Dragon, because what Golden Harvest had in their hands in 1971 was the perfect combination of boyish masculinity and one would figure they would milk the living waloop out of that, but for some reason they just didn't. Don't get me wrong, ETD a fabulous flick still, but it really is more of an equal collaborative effort effort between Lee, John Saxon, Jim Kelly and a few others than a standalone film of his per-se. Oh well, that's another controversial opinion for another day 

The thing about Big Boss is that it has loads of unrealized potential. Like, lots of it. Out of all the protagonists from Bruce Lee's flicks, Cheng Chao-an was the only one to truly change because of the course of events in the plot. He goes from a naive and painfully shy introvert, to being a borderline primal human weapon. Besides being one of the first contemporary martial arts flicks, there's also the brutal violence (In hindsight they should've made BB a full blown horror movie; have the villains embroiled in black magic. It's certainly would've been more compelling than their lousy drug trade), a hero that restrains himself until halfway through (although the movie could've given Cheng other things to do), a flawed hero in a modern setting (something that could've been emphasized way more often as opposed to postponing his "transformation" to the last 20 minutes of the film).

To be honest, I feel that BB is just as incomplete as Game of Death. I appreciate what they DID accomplish with it, but it was purely incidental rather than intentional. You can tell that just about everything in the movie could've been improved and streamlined had Wu Chia-Hsiang the inept boob had never been involved with it. Not that Lo Wei had much of a work ethic either, but at least he had an active interest in the project, but it was a little too late by then. At least Golden Harvest/Raymond Chow had an active interest in the brand long after Bruce Lee stopped caring, and Chow even drafted two ideas for Big Boss "sequels" that might've been produced had BL lived a while longer. It probably wouldn't have happened, but the potential of continuing Cheng Chao-an's story and development is in itself an exciting prospect.

I guess one could agree that Lo Wei did explore some of Thai culture in the movie.......albeit in the way of emphasizing it's rampant criminality and sex trade  speaking of which, it's interesting that the duality theme between Cheng and Hsiao "Big Boss" Mi is still overlooked. Such duality is hardly a surprise since both characters were both based on the real life individual Cheng Chiu-On from the late 19th century (He was for Thailand what Al Capone was for the USA). For all the brouhaha about Cheng being the movie's "hero", the matter of fact is that he and the villain are two sides of the same coin.

To begin with, when he fights the Big Boss, Cheng takes on his evil doppelgänger. By slaying the Boss, Cheng not only extracts revenge for his adoptive family but also eliminates his old self, or so he believes. Cheng must build a new path and identity. But what will that identity be? Although the film ends before answering that question definitely, it is readily apparent that Cheng is in serious peril of eventually become a replacement for Hisao Mi. After all, Cheng is not even close to being a paragon of morality, having just practiced mass murder TWICE and becoming a willful patron to Pak Chong's prostitution ring, and indeed, apparently having lost interest in whether Chiao Mei was still alive or not. 

[Phantom Dreamer]

 

I had no reason to believe that the setting of the Big Boss was anything other than a contemporary one and was surprised someone put forth an opinion that it was not.

"The movie takes place roughly around the same year it was shot (1971), when Thailand was receiving yet another migration wave of Chinese workers due to the catastrophe that was the "Cultural Revolution" of the mid 60's.

However, it was suggested by other users in this forum that BB was originally supposed to take place sometime in the early 20th century, when Chinese immigration toSiam was at it's highest peak. This is supported by the overly simplistic clothing that Cheng Chao-An, his companions and the local populace of Pak Chongdresses up, along with the rather decrepit shacks and lack of proper buildings shown throughout BB.

The labor conditions are horrid if not downright nonexistent, and there are still plenty of socioethnic conflicts and animosity between the Chinese and the Thai natives, perhaps deliberately stoked by Hsiao "Big Boss" Mi. Such dynamic is interesting, considering they are all kept in abject misery as much as possible.

It's almost as if the producers wanted to give a "Wild West" vibe when they decided to have the movie set inPak Chong, which would certainly make sense considering it's rampant lawlessness and crippling poverty.

Chiao Mei herself is somewhat of a walking anachronism, if not an outright time capsule. Besides her traditional old style hair, she willingly constrains herself to the roles of housekeeper and damsel-in-distress, despite not being engaged in any formal relationship." (cont on next post)

"Despite being the only female in family, Chiao Mei still single-handily cooks, washes their clothes, and does all the work around the house. She takes care of the family and looks after them. However, when Chiao Mei’s brothers go missing, she has no other choice but to rely on her newly-arrived adoptive cousin and platonic love interest, Cheng Chao-an. However, Chao Mei’s problems and concerns are the last thing on his mind when he is promoted in the factory he is working at. 

It would seem that the society that Chiao Mei and others hail from emphasizes that only men have the voice of authority, needs to go out to work for money, and provide for the family and women needs to stay home. From this, Chiao Mei doesn’t have the power and experience to go out to look for her brothers herself. Also, since she always relied on her brothers to bring in the money for the household, she is lost in how to go on and live her life. This is probably why, despite catching Cheng at the brothel's entrace, she chooses to turn the other cheek and not make an issue of his infidelity and irresponsibility, if only because she already expects the worse for her family and for better or for worse Cheng is all that she has left to rely on for support and companionship.

When Chiao Mei’s remaining siblings are ultimately killed off by Hsaio Mi’s men, they decide to spare Chiao Mei’s life. This is not because they considered her life of actual value. Her life was only saved for a life of a servant, prostitute or possibly both, depending on how fast Hsiao Mi grows bored of her. It’s unfortunate that Chiao Mei has no other choice but to accept it because she has no power to fight or stand up for herself. She has to accept it as her fate, and just go with it. 

Later on in the film, Chiao Mei is saved from Hsaio Mi’s house not by Cheng Chao-An, who, in another glaring display of lack of commitment towards her, takes his time to "get busy" with another prostitute at the Thai brothel, and thereby becoming a willing patron to Hsiao Mi's ring. Instead, she is freed by a disgruntled server of the Boss, showing that not all is hopeless to Chiao Mei, as she can rely on solidarity between females and that it serves as an alternative to the a traditional damsel in distress narrative. She relies on a "hero" figure to come save her from her misfortune, and the "hero" turned out to be someone completely unreliable and fraught with his own vices and inner demons."

[DragonClaws]

1 hour ago, Phantom Dreamer said:

I had no reason to believe that the setting of the Big Boss was anything other than a contemporary one and was surprised someone put forth an opinion that it was not.

I always got the impression it was just given a contemporary setting, for the time it was made. Parts of Thailand will stil look poor and deprived even now.

 

1 hour ago, Phantom Dreamer said:

This is probably why, despite catching Cheng at the brothel's entrace, she chooses to turn the other cheek and not make an issue of his infidelity and irresponsibility, if only because she already expects the worse for her family and for better or for worse Cheng is all that she has left to rely on for support and companionship.

I don't think Lee's character and Maria Yi had a sexual relationship, so he wasn't cheating on her. It's just a romance that get's hinted at throughout the movie.

If Angela Mao had been given the Maria Yi role, I'm sure she would be kicking arse with the Little Dragon during the films closing scenes.

[Phantom Dreamer]

1 hour ago, DragonClaws said:

I always got the impression it was just given a contemporary setting, for the time it was made. Parts of Thailand will stil look poor and deprived even now.

 

I don't think Lee's character and Maria Yi had a sexual relationship, so he wasn't cheating on her. It's just a romance that get's hinted at throughout the movie.

If Angela Mao had been given the Maria Yi role, I'm sure she would be kicking arse with the Little Dragon during the films closing scenes.

But there would be no sexual tension.

Also, credit to Horace/Lonesome Space for the quoted text in my previous post.

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

8 hours ago, Phantom Dreamer said:

 

I had no reason to believe that the setting of the Big Boss was anything other than a contemporary one and was surprised someone put forth an opinion that it was not.

Well, what is it about the opinion that you find disagreeable, exactly?

6 hours ago, DragonClaws said:

I always got the impression it was just given a contemporary setting, for the time it was made. Parts of Thailand will stil look poor and deprived even now.

 

I don't think Lee's character and Maria Yi had a sexual relationship, so he wasn't cheating on her. It's just a romance that get's hinted at throughout the movie.

If Angela Mao had been given the Maria Yi role, I'm sure she would be kicking arse with the Little Dragon during the films closing scenes.

The name of the documentary escapes me right now, but it did show that Pak Chong had some proper buildings and developed areas. It certainly looks a lot nicer than it is now, if tge Pursuit of tge Dragon documentary is anything to take by.

The relationship was still platonic, I think. She had lots of trust into Cheng and he betrayed that too. It's not just strictly romantic.

Speaking of asskicking, I reckon seeing a behind-the-scenes pic of Matia Yi performing a judo throw in one of the crewman. I'll see if I can track it down and post it here.

5 hours ago, Phantom Dreamer said:

Also, credit to Horace/Lonesome Space for the quoted text in my previous post.

Lol, we're not the same person. But yeah, you're welcome. I'm all ears for whichever further opinions you have about the movie and the topic brought forth.

[Phantom Dreamer]

4 hours ago, lonesome space said:

Well, what is it about the opinion that you find disagreeable, exactly?

Lol, we're not the same person. But yeah, you're welcome. I'm all ears for whichever further opinions you have about the movie and the topic brought forth.

I believe the Big Boss took place in a Thai village in 1971.

Whoa, you don't post under the name of "Horace" at Nick Clarke's forum? I thought you were the same guy, especially with the same heightened Big Boss interest and you even had similar posts about Maria Yi's hair. My mistake.

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

11 minutes ago, Phantom Dreamer said:

I believe the Big Boss took place in a Thai village in 1971.

Whoa, you don't post under the name of "Horace" at Nick Clarke's forum? I thought you were the same guy, especially with the same heightened Big Boss interest and you even had similar posts about Maria Yi's hair. My mistake.

In your opinion, what makes you think it takes place at the same year it was filmed? Just curious, is all.

I'm hardly the only person with a huge interest in Big Boss, but I can see why you would draw the comparison. I do check Nick Clarke's forum and I believe I have left a few anon posts here and there before.

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

6 hours ago, Phantom Dreamer said:

I believe the Big Boss took place in a Thai village in 1971.

Whoa, you don't post under the name of "Horace" at Nick Clarke's forum? I thought you were the same guy, especially with the same heightened Big Boss interest and you even had similar posts about Maria Yi's hair. My mistake.

Did some digging on the forum, and I came across this. In the beginning, it states 1910. The rest of the story is the same as the TBB movie. The actual name of the magazine was unfortunately not listed, but it was said to be from the 70's. Just thought it would be worth mentioning.

Edited October 1, 2017 by lonesome space

[Phantom Dreamer]

1910? I have never seen the Big Boss script, but that's a weird but interesting find because I seldom come across any article or interview from anyone associated with that movie in any way that mentions it's a, for the lack of a better word, "period" piece. Even Bruce Lee's own interview with Ted Thomas, he never included the tidbit that the Big Boss was set in the early 20th century.

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

10 hours ago, Phantom Dreamer said:

1910? I have never seen the Big Boss script, but that's a weird but interesting find because I seldom come across any article or interview from anyone associated with that movie in any way that mentions it's a, for the lack of a better word, "period" piece. Even Bruce Lee's own interview with Ted Thomas, he never included the tidbit that the Big Boss was set in the early 20th century.

I can only speak for myself on this, but I suppose that the producers intended on emphasizing the "period" piece aspect very early on, but it quickly got tossed aside due to the very messy production schedule.

It does help explain why, among other things, the Chinese wear simple basic clothing, whereas the Thai thugs are all rather elegantly dressed in late 60's style clothing, along with the general lack of law and order, the emphasis on basic dilapidated wooden buildings throughout the movie, and the overall classicist and callous attitude that the male characters have towards the women. 

Even if the 1971 setting were to be true, it's kinda hard to believe that Chinese migration to Thailand was still ongoing even after 1949, due to the tightened control of borders by both countries after the fact. Unless Cheng was on the run and had entered the country by illicit means? Makes one wonder how dark his past really is. I know that I'm overthinking it, but food for thought is always fun. 

EDIT: @danthemandmv you sure are enjoying the conversation! Is there any opinions you'd like to chip in by any chance?

Edited October 1, 2017 by lonesome space

[massa_yoda]

Surely there’s someone still alive today that can give an exhaustive account of what all happened to get a The Big Boss made.  It sounds like it would make an amazing documentary...

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

5 minutes ago, massa_yoda said:

Surely there’s someone still alive today that can give an exhaustive account of what all happened to get a The Big Boss made.  It sounds like it would make an amazing documentary...

As far as official documentaries go, I think the best we will ever get is Pursuit of the Dragon. For whatever reason the Bruce Lee estate & family really doesn't like to talk about Big Boss, not even in a passing mention. I recall that Shannon Lee was actually asked one or two basic questions about BB and she pretty much danced around it, as if she did not want to acknowledge the movie at all.

Regardless, lots of background info concerning the production of Big Boss has been uncovered by fans since earlier this year. I'll be posting more as the thread moves, but for starters, here's some passages from Nick Clarke's forum.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/256969/message/1500540462/The+Shaw’s+Warring+Dynasty+–+Chapters+on+Bruce+Lee+(1+of+3)

http://www.network54.com/Forum/256969/message/1500540627/The+Shaw’s+Warring+Dynasty+–+Chapters+on+Bruce+Lee+(2+of+3)

Quote

 

While having worries and hesitations, Raymond Chow suddenly thought of a person. He was a big fatty who always wore a smile on his face and his name was Mak Tin-Yat, a Thai movie distributor. He used to come to Hong Kong to purchase Shaw’s movies and was in good terms with Raymond Chow who at the time was working for Shaw.
　　
When Raymond Chow set up his own movie company, he once invited Mak Tin-Yat to be the shareholder. But Mak said, “I don’t want to be the shareholder but since you’ve established your own company, I should put in my best effort to assist you. Ok then, you can come over to Thailand to make movies anytime with a limit of two films. The Thailand’s movie copyright shall belong to me. You just need to send your crew with the movie film negative over and I will cover all their food, accommodation and transportation expenses in Thailand.”

Raymond Chow made his calculations. He understood all his staff received monthly paycheck, even if they did not work, he still have to pay them. But if they could bring Bruce Lee over to Thailand and make movie over there, what they just need to carry with them was only the film negative as all the expenses would be paid by Fatty Mak. When the movie completed, the company could at least earn a little profit due to its low cost. 

Thus, Raymond Chow made a call to Fatty Mak and told him he was sending his crew team over to Thailand for filming. Fatty Mak said he was very please to welcome them. He did keep his promise which he made to Raymond Chow previously.

 

Quote

Highlights:

- Why GH did not pin too much hope on Bruce Lee initially?

- Why Raymond Chow sent Wu Chia-Hsiang to be The Big Boss’ director?

- Why Bruce Lee quarreled with Wu Chia-Hsiang on the first day of shooting and why Wu called Raymond Chow to replace Bruce Lee, the male lead? Who came to the rescue?

- Why Lo Wei agreed to take over from Wu Chia-Hsiang as The Big Boss’ director? What benefits would he get from this offer? How FOF helped Lo struck gold after becoming his own Sai Wei’s production?

- How Raymond Chow managed to sell off his unreleased films to global film distributors with Bruce Lee movies? How Bruce Lee’s movies paved the way of the global markets/distribution channels for GH?

- How Run Run Shaw and Raymond Chow compete fiercely to get the service of Bruce Lee after his 2 movies contract? How Raymond Chow outwitted and outplayed Run Run?

- Why Bruce Lee’s “phone call’s joke” from Run Run’s office scared Raymond Chow and made Chow followed him wherever he went?


Bruce Lee – The Savior of Golden Harvest
===============================
Actually, Raymond Chow did not pin too much hope on Bruce Lee. As he saw Lau Leung-Wah was so excited about her new found star, thus, he did not want to upset her. Since Fatty Ma of Thailand was willing to pay the expenses for the film making which meant even if it did not do well in the box-office, the loss would still be very limited. Just as there is a saying in Hong Kong that goes, “Chu Bun Yau Kam,” literally means after minus away the price one has to pay, there is still something to gain. Raymond Chow actually was having a trial test feeling when he signed Bruce Lee to a contract. 　　

At this time, there were very few “soldiers and generals” in the newly found Golden Harvest. It could not even get a director to fly to Thailand to make Bruce Lee’s new movie. Under this circumstance, Raymond Chow got Wu Chia-Hsiang to be the director. Wu Chia-Hsiang was only a veteran actor who had acted in quite a number of movies but mostly was playing supporting roles and rarely had much experience being a director. As Golden Harvest could not find a cat, so it had no choice but to just anyhow got a dog to catch a rat this time (note: Chinese saying).

The location crew went to Thailand in a big group. On the first day of filming, the lead actor had a quarrel with the director. Bruce Lee thought that Wu Chia-Hsiang’s way of directing was over conservative and totally outdated. Though Wu Chia-Hsiang had just been promoted to director, yet, he put on air and acted like a big shot. He accused Bruce for not obeying his instructions. He even made a distance call to Raymond Chow and requested to change the male lead.

Leonard Ho was then the vice president cum head of production department in Golden Harvest. He immediately flew to Bangkok to settle the disputes. As it was impossible to change the male lead, Leonard Ho could only pull down his rank and kindly advised Wu Chia-Hsiang to return to Hong Kong who reluctantly obliged. He then got someone to be the replacement. Coincidentally, at this moment, Lo Wei who left Shaw for Golden Harvest, had just finished filming in Taiwan. He received the order and quickly rushed to the location site. As Bruce Lee was recommended by Lau Leung-Wah, so she personally invited her husband, Lo Wei to Thailand to fix the problem. Raymond Chow also provided very good conditions to Lo Wei, i.e. one out of the two movies that was going to be shot in Thailand would become Lo Wei’s own Sai Wei Company’s production. In other words, Lo Wei did not need to fork out a single cent but just needed to go to Thailand and direct two movies, and he would reap the proceeds of one of them.

Bruce Lee was not satisfied with Lo Wei’s directing too. Both of them were seen engaging in heated arguments several times during the filming. Fortunately, Leonard Ho was around to help calm down both parties and solved the disputes. He coordinated the filming almost throughout the entire filming. Golden Harvest managed to complete two films which were both directed by Lo Wei eventually. Nobody would expect that these two movies which were finished via many disputes would break the box-office record and caused stirs in many countries.

In fact, Golden Harvest was in bad financial condition at that time. If Bruce Lee did not appear and created the miracle in Hong Kong cinema history, Golden Harvest would not make a good transformation. Later, Golden Harvest developed up to a stage that it was on par with Shaw and was able to resist its challenge. This was all due to the good luck Bruce brought for it. 

The first two Bruce Lee’s movies which stunned the world were “The Big Boss” and “Fist of Fury.” As the box-office for these two movies were totally amazing, the film distributors from all over the world attempted to purchase the distribution rights of these two movies at the highest price. This phenomenon was the effect of “herd instinct.” It was as if those film distributors who were able to get these two movies would make a fortune and become rich instantly. 

[danthemandmv]

@lonesome space  Yes, I'm enjoying this topic as I'm learning alot about ''THE BIG BOSS'' that I never knew before( such as the lead character AND the main villain being based on the same real-life figure, as well as the early 20th Century setting.) This exemplifies the thing I love most about our awesome assemblage here at KFF-sharing knowledge about these films & actors we love! 

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

@DragonClaws Why do you think Cheng Chao-An is a virgin? I'm intrigued to hear your theories about that and others.

[DragonClaws]

23 minutes ago, lonesome space said:

Why do you think Cheng Chao-An is a virgin? I'm intrigued to hear your theories about that and others.

Just the way he behaves around Nora Miao and Maria Yi's character, its none the body language of a womanizer. Or someone thats expeirecned around women in that way. He shy infront of women at the party, until he's necked a lot that Thai whisky. This just how I see it, doesnt mean its actually true.

Though Lee was around 30 when he made the movie, I'm guessing his character was supposed to be early 20s?.

 

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

10 hours ago, DragonClaws said:

Just the way he behaves around Nora Miao and Maria Yi's character, its none the body language of a womanizer. Or someone thats expeirecned around women in that way. He shy infront of women at the party, until he's necked a lot that Thai whisky. This just how I see it, doesnt mean its actually true.

Though Lee was around 30 when he made the movie, I'm guessing his character was supposed to be early 20s?.

I suppose that Cheng felt he only had an obligation to be chivalrous around Chinese women. In particular he was "shy" around Chiao Mei because she was part of the family and any flirting attempts would've been a no-no.

As for the party, the initial 'shyness' was Cheng trying to put a good impression to the manager; otherwise he clearly lusted for those women which especially showed after he downed on that whiskey.

Cheng is also very cold and indifferent towards Malalene, only using her for info and not showing any affection or interest in her backstory. Perhaps his attitude in the final brothel scene isn't as "atypical" from that perspective.

Personally, I'd sad that Cheng Chao-An is 24 years old. Not too young to be a kung fu master, and not too old to be enjoying life at it's fullest.

Edited October 3, 2017 by lonesome space

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

Gave the review/essay another revision. I also changed the thread's name to reflect on it's newfound purpose.

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

 

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

10 hours ago, Fist of the Heavenly Sky said:

The Third Uncle surely must have lots of tales of hurt and hardship of his own to share. The old guard passes on the torch to the next generation.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, DragonClaws said:

Maybe you should write a Third Uncle origin movie script?

So what do you guys think? Drop your suggestions/ideas here, or shoot me PM, that works too.

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

Was Bruce Lee Beaten by a Muay Thai Fighter? Master Woody And Dan/Lee Connection

https://www.jetli.com/2017/11/bruce-lee-muay-thai-fighter-master-woody

[Fist of the Heavenly Sky]

"The hero of The Big Boss is an energetic young man. When such a man prepares to kill the villain at any cost, he naturally will want to give vent to his desire. So, he goes to the whorehouse and makes love to a prostitute."

That following quote is said to be the answer that director Lo Wei provided at a Hong Kong newspaper interview (Ming Pao, Sing Do Daily, Fai Bo etc.) around the initial release of Big Boss. 

As the Hong Kong people were quite conservative (and sexual situations outside of Wuxia/historical films was still uncommon), many audience including the movie critics were not comfortable about the hero, who was expected to be an icon of chivalry and role model, seeking one last act of gratification at the whorehouse before the big fight. 

The quote and topic was featured in one of the 70s Hong Kong Bruce Lee Club magazine issues, which was eventually (poorly) translated into the UK Bruce Lee & JKD poster no. 4 issue.

https://imgur.com/a/NlYZ8