Member Secret Executioner Posted December 31, 2014 Member Share Posted December 31, 2014 With the discussion going on in the thread dedicated to The 14 Amazons being interesting but quite out of subject, I figured we should move it in a thread of its own. So there ya go, keep arguing on shapes, bashers and wuxias here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Morgoth Bauglir Posted December 31, 2014 Member Share Posted December 31, 2014 "I had some trouble with the terms "bashers" and "shapes" at first - now I kinda got it, a basher is all about ass-kicking (like a Hwang Jang Lee film) when a "shapes" movie has over the top technique like the Shaking Eagle Fist from 18 Fatal Strikes. Wuxias for me are more grounded period pieces, films that have deep plots, some battles and are set in a medieval environment - hell, Return Of The One-Armed Swordsman is (IMO) a wuxia just like Tsui Hark's Detective Dee movies or Curse Of The Golden Flower." Over the top and being fancy with their kung fu is a good way to describe shapes. Also you can see the actors making shapes a lot of the time fighting eachother both with their whole bodies and the awesome close up shots of the hand exchanges. I think you are on the right track with wuxias too. For general reference just remember, if you ever see a battle take place on a chess board, and a character called Devil Grandma, then it's a wuxia, called The Magic Blade. Hwang Jang Lee's movies aren't bashers. Hwang is a shapes man for the most part. The proper term for Hwang would be a leg fighter, but he mainly uses those legs in shapes movies, and he can handle the shapes choreography with ease. Bashers are Little Superman, Boxer from Shantung and Chen Sing's early indies like Tough Guy and Rage of the Wind. Ever since I heard the term punch and block style it clicked for me. I've always thought of the 80's kickboxing choreography to be the successor to bashers. One Armed Boxer and King Boxer are also considered bashers I think, but those movies are focusing on trying to show real kung fu, so I don't know what to call them sometimes. I usually just use the standard term for King Boxer. It's a kung fu movie. There's lots of other genres. Knife movies- best example would probably be Hong Kong Godfather 1985. Samurai Fu- Sword of Justice, Master and the Kid. Kickfighting- Death Duel of Kung Fu, Leg Fighters. Death Duel also falls into the northern kicks southern fists category, along with The Hot the Cool the Vicious and Challenge of Death, the Secret Rivals movies and Showdown at the Cottonmill. This genre has the 2 heroes, 1 good with his legs, the other with his fists, and they team up to fight a villain who is good at fighting against both styles. (Cottonmill doesn't use this exact formula. It has fist man as the hero, and leg man as the villain) I still can't figure out what to call Human Lanterns. It's a wuxia/horror for sure, but it also falls into another category. I need to find a name for it, but for now I'm calling it "movie about 2 wealthy and powerful assholes that hate eachother" genre. I wish there were more movies like Human Lanterns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member paimeifist Posted December 31, 2014 Member Share Posted December 31, 2014 Good job GHW I agree with everything you said above Morgoth. But I do recall thinking myself that Hwang Jang Lee style ass kicking (or maybe just kick fests in general) really walk the line between shapes and bashers. I think I posted a thread about it before, and it was confirmed it's shapes. But as you said, they could probably really have their own sub-genre. Cold Bishop really opened my eyes on Wuxia, and after seeing what has been said, it seems like I should have known! What would Rebellious Reign be considered? It seems to have shapes-style action with a wuxia-like plot? Or would it be it's own genre of Epic- Fu? Lul. Would I be right in assuming the majority of Venoms films would be considered wuxia? I too wish ther were more movies like Human Lanterns! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Morgoth Bauglir Posted December 31, 2014 Member Share Posted December 31, 2014 Bloody Parrot is like Human Lanterns. Good flick. Deadly Breaking Sword is somewhat similar. Very good flick. Rebellious Reign I go with "kung fu fighting/action movie". "Epic fu", I like that. The SB Blood Brothers I think would fit that description. But Blood brothers would probably be considered a real "epic fu". Rebellious Reign is more of a lower budget epic fu:tongue: But a damn good one. Also, to comment a bit further on what you say about Hwang Jang Lee walking the line, I agree. And I would put most Korean kf movies in the kickfighting genre. Kill the Shogun being one of the best examples of a movie that's sole intention is to deliver nonstop kicking. Leg Fighters is a special one because it tried to expand the kickfighting genre. John Liu tried to carry on this genre with movies like Ninja in the Claw of the CIA, where he came up with a kicking style that involves him training with naked women surrounding him (in the uncut/deleted footage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member paimeifist Posted December 31, 2014 Member Share Posted December 31, 2014 Yeah when I said that term, Blood Brothers sprang to mind, as well as Heroic Ones. I have seen Deadly Breaking Sword but don't remember it very well. All I remember is thinking Ti Lungs character was over the top but bad ass. I remember hearing that Blood Parrot isn't very good, but if you say it is an that it's similar to Human Lanterns I'll have to see it eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Secret Executioner Posted December 31, 2014 Author Member Share Posted December 31, 2014 Bloody Parrot has a funny title - when I hear this, I can't help but think of a Monty Python sketch. I realized after posting that indeed, HJL also had a lot of shapes (stuff like Five Pattern Dragon Claws notably). And while I haven't seen it, I'd think Blood Brothers is a wuxia - one with action, but still a wuxia, with the complex plot, the twists and all. An "epic fu" movie would rather be (IMO) something like Men From The Monastery, 36th Chamber Of Shaolin or other KF movies that lean towards the wuxia complexity (lots of characters, developped plotline...) without relying too much on the usual KF cinema tropes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member paimeifist Posted December 31, 2014 Member Share Posted December 31, 2014 Bloody Parrot has a funny title - when I hear this, I can't help but think of a Monty Python sketch. I realized after posting that indeed, HJL also had a lot of shapes (stuff like Five Pattern Dragon Claws notably). And while I haven't seen it, I'd think Blood Brothers is a wuxia - one with action, but still a wuxia, with the complex plot, the twists and all. An "epic fu" movie would rather be (IMO) something like Men From The Monastery, 36th Chamber Of Shaolin or other KF movies that lean towards the wuxia complexity (lots of characters, developped plotline...) without relying too much on the usual KF cinema tropes. Blood Brothers plot becomes more epic than you may think by just reading about it.. Similar to Rebellous Reign but with a bigger budget as Morgoth pointed out. I could see Men from the Monastery fitting in to that "epic" category. 14 Amazons could probably also be considered as such. (As well as wuxia) I'm trying to think of a Lau Kar Leung movie that could be considered Wuxia. Maybe 8 Diagram Pole Fighter? Dirty Ho? Edit:Both of these personal favorites (and great films) definitely have a wuxia feel to them. Very adventurous, small band/lone hero(s), good characters, betrayal, and in the case of 8 Diagram, very dark and atmospheric. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member GOLDEN DRAGON YIN-YANG Posted December 31, 2014 Member Share Posted December 31, 2014 "I had some trouble with the terms "bashers" and "shapes" at first - now I kinda got it, a basher is all about ass-kicking (like a Hwang Jang Lee film) when a "shapes" movie has over the top technique like the Shaking Eagle Fist from 18 Fatal Strikes. Wuxias for me are more grounded period pieces, films that have deep plots, some battles and are set in a medieval environment - hell, Return Of The One-Armed Swordsman is (IMO) a wuxia just like Tsui Hark's Detective Dee movies or Curse Of The Golden Flower." Over the top and being fancy with their kung fu is a good way to describe shapes. Also you can see the actors making shapes a lot of the time fighting eachother both with their whole bodies and the awesome close up shots of the hand exchanges. I think you are on the right track with wuxias too. For general reference just remember, if you ever see a battle take place on a chess board, and a character called Devil Grandma, then it's a wuxia, called The Magic Blade. Hwang Jang Lee's movies aren't bashers. Hwang is a shapes man for the most part. The proper term for Hwang would be a leg fighter, but he mainly uses those legs in shapes movies, and he can handle the shapes choreography with ease. Bashers are Little Superman, Boxer from Shantung and Chen Sing's early indies like Tough Guy and Rage of the Wind. Ever since I heard the term punch and block style it clicked for me. I've always thought of the 80's kickboxing choreography to be the successor to bashers. One Armed Boxer and King Boxer are also considered bashers I think, but those movies are focusing on trying to show real kung fu, so I don't know what to call them sometimes. I usually just use the standard term for King Boxer. It's a kung fu movie. There's lots of other genres. Knife movies- best example would probably be Hong Kong Godfather 1985. Samurai Fu- Sword of Justice, Master and the Kid. Kickfighting- Death Duel of Kung Fu, Leg Fighters. Death Duel also falls into the northern kicks southern fists category, along with The Hot the Cool the Vicious and Challenge of Death, the Secret Rivals movies and Showdown at the Cottonmill. This genre has the 2 heroes, 1 good with his legs, the other with his fists, and they team up to fight a villain who is good at fighting against both styles. (Cottonmill doesn't use this exact formula. It has fist man as the hero, and leg man as the villain) I still can't figure out what to call Human Lanterns. It's a wuxia/horror for sure, but it also falls into another category. I need to find a name for it, but for now I'm calling it "movie about 2 wealthy and powerful assholes that hate eachother" genre. I wish there were more movies like Human Lanterns. Nice post Morgoth Bauglir GD Y-Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member GOLDEN DRAGON YIN-YANG Posted December 31, 2014 Member Share Posted December 31, 2014 I have decided after watching The Romantic Double Rings that Taiwanese wuxia swordplay flicks are my favorite kung fu movie genre of all time. Sure I love Shaw Brothers and other Honk Kong productions, but the mood of the Taiwanese kung fu movies is very hard to beat. The action in the masterpieces are second to none. I am especially fond of Tien Peng movies. GD Y-Y Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Cold Bishop Posted December 31, 2014 Member Share Posted December 31, 2014 I would hesitate on subdividing things too far lest they get muddled. If we focus things to just roughly '65-'83ish as the classical height of the genre, the Old School Era, I think Wuxia, Basher and Shapes to be enough to cover it all. Wuxia - The overarching genre. As a literary form, it goes back to at least the Qing. As a film genre, at least the '20s. Older settings: typically Ming Dynasty or prior. Action centered on swordplay and weapons combat with free use of fx and camera trickery. Chilvarous knight like heroes in a highly structured world of various clans and hierarchically ranked martial artists. Freely mixes the mythic and fantastic with real historical events. The Jianghu. Primarily a narrative genre: One can imagine a good wuxia film with poor choreography. It's harder to imagine the same with a gungfu pian. As such, there's a lot more freedom in story structure and choice of subject matter. Basher - A sharp and extreme break with the Wuxia. Starts in 1970. Deliberately modern: predominately set in 20th century – warlord-torn Republican Era; Japanese occupied WWII; modern day crime dramas. Raw, rudimentary choreography style – punch and block – focused on speed, strength and violence. Frequent use of knives and hatchets. Less clear concern with technique, although when it does appear, favors Japanese and Korean styles. A more or less complete disavowal of the magic and nobility of the jianghu. Strongly influenced by contemporary action films and crime thrillers. Nearly always structured as a revenge film, Strong focus on crime, corruption and poverty, narratives tending towards disillusionment. Shapes - Introduced in 1975. A return to older period settings, although still more contemporary: typically set within Qing dynasty, almost never within the 20th century. Favors intricately choreographed scenes based in actual Chinese martial arts. Emphasis slightly more on bare hand forms (the shapes) than weapons, although both certainly get play. Supernatural elements and fx are always secondary to physically accomplishable choreography. Apotheosis of the martial arts film as cinema of spectacle, away from wuxia's focus on dramaturgy: narrative becomes simply an excuse to string along scenes of fight choreography. Martial arts for martial arts sake, with narrative streamlined in it's service. The focus on physicality becomes focus of narratives themselves: almost every Shapes Film, in some form or another, follows a strict narrative structure of initial failure and sworn vengeance, physical training and pedagogy, and finally triumph, the accumulation and innovation of martial arts being the plot itself. Returns to wuxia notion of an inner martial-world, but focus on realistic combat and styles whose lineage survive to the modern day serves to undermine similarities, as do the focus on rural and working class heroes and settings. Shapes retain flavor of folk tale, not literary myth. I am decidedly not a fan of Blood Brothers but I agree it is a tough one to categorize. It relies too heavily on martial arts to be just a historical drama. The action is often hand-to-hand but it doesn't follow the beats of a kung-fu film. And the film is so utterly bereft of jianghu elements to truly be a wuxia. I still lean towards the latter, but ultimately the film is too much of a slog for me to worry too much about it (Heroic Ones is 100% a wuxia, although I also don't like it). If Sword of Justice isn't a wuxia pian, I don't know what is. Lau Kar Leung never made a true wuxia pian but he certainly made use of it. Both Shaolin Mantis and Cat vs. Rat are loosely adapted from classic wuxia novels ( the same sources as Temple of the Red Lotus, King Cat and Majesty Cat). Dirty Ho seems like a forerunner to the shapes-wuxia-comedy hybrids that Tong Gai and Tony Liu would try in the '80s. And while 8 Diagrams is plainly shapes (essentially a darker remake of 36th Chamber) it's worth noting the film begins with the death of the Generals of the Yang Family... the very same event that opens The 14 Amazons. Now the thread comes full circle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member paimeifist Posted December 31, 2014 Member Share Posted December 31, 2014 I would hesitate on subdividing things too far lest they get muddled. If we focus things to just roughly '65-'83ish as the classical height of the genre, the Old School Era, I think Wuxia, Basher and Shapes to be enough to cover it all. Wuxia - The overarching genre. As a literary form, it goes back to at least the Qing. As a film genre, at least the '20s. Older settings: typically Ming Dynasty or prior. Action centered on swordplay and weapons combat with free use of fx and camera trickery. Chilvarous knight like heroes in a highly structured world of various clans and hierarchically ranked martial artists. Freely mixes the mythic and fantastic with real historical events. The Jianghu. Primarily a narrative genre: One can imagine a good wuxia film with poor choreography. It's harder to imagine the same with a gungfu pian. As such, there's a lot more freedom in story structure and choice of subject matter. Basher - A sharp and extreme break with the Wuxia. Starts in 1970. Deliberately modern: predominately set in 20th century – warlord-torn Republican Era; Japanese occupied WWII; modern day crime dramas. Raw, rudimentary choreography style – punch and block – focused on speed, strength and violence. Frequent use of knives and hatchets. Less clear concern with technique, although when it does appear, favors Japanese and Korean styles. A more or less complete disavowal of the magic and nobility of the jianghu. Strongly influenced by contemporary action films and crime thrillers. Nearly always structured as a revenge film, Strong focus on crime, corruption and poverty, narratives tending towards disillusionment. Shapes - Introduced in 1975. A return to older period settings, although still more contemporary: typically set within Qing dynasty, almost never within the 20th century. Favors intricately choreographed scenes based in actual Chinese martial arts. Emphasis slightly more on bare hand forms (the shapes) than weapons, although both certainly get play. Supernatural elements and fx are always secondary to physically accomplishable choreography. Apotheosis of the martial arts film as cinema of spectacle, away from wuxia's focus on dramaturgy: narrative becomes simply an excuse to string along scenes of fight choreography. Martial arts for martial arts sake, with narrative streamlined in it's service. The focus on physicality becomes focus of narratives themselves: almost every Shapes Film, in some form or another, follows a strict narrative structure of initial failure and sworn vengeance, physical training and pedagogy, and finally triumph, the accumulation and innovation of martial arts being the plot itself. Returns to wuxia notion of an inner martial-world, but focus on realistic combat and styles whose lineage survive to the modern day serves to undermine similarities, as do the focus on rural and working class heroes and settings. Shapes retain flavor of folk tale, not literary myth. I am decidedly not a fan of Blood Brothers but I agree it is a tough one to categorize. It relies too heavily on martial arts to be just a historical drama. The action is often hand-to-hand but it doesn't follow the beats of a kung-fu film. And the film is so utterly bereft of jianghu elements to truly be a wuxia. I still lean towards the latter, but ultimately the film is too much of a slog for me to worry too much about it (Heroic Ones is 100% a wuxia, although I also don't like it). If Sword of Justice isn't a wuxia pian, I don't know what is. Lau Kar Leung never made a true wuxia pian but he certainly made use of it. Both Shaolin Mantis and Cat vs. Rat are loosely adapted from classic wuxia novels ( the same sources as Temple of the Red Lotus, King Cat and Majesty Cat). Dirty Ho seems like a forerunner to the shapes-wuxia-comedy hybrids that Tong Gai and Tony Liu would try in the '80s. And while 8 Diagrams is plainly shapes (essentially a darker remake of 36th Chamber) it's worth noting the film begins with the death of the Generals of the Yang Family... the very same event that opens The 14 Amazons. Now the thread comes full circle. Good post man. This should be a sticky in the classic section, lol. I love Blood Brothers, but am also not a fan of Heroic Ones. I suppose even though the atmosphere of 8 Diagram feels like that of many Wuxias, the story is still a classic revenge-fu/training tale at the end of the day. G D Y-Y, "The Silver Spear" looks awesome going by the poster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Morgoth Bauglir Posted December 31, 2014 Member Share Posted December 31, 2014 Awesome stuff. Sword of Justice is a wuxia, sure, if you want to be "correct" about it:angel: Similar to Rebellious Reign, 8 Diagram is a smaller scale "epic fu". Funny that these smaller productions are superior to the real epic, Blood Brothers. And Blood Brothers is a masterpiece. Same with Heroic Ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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