The Classical Mess

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

Has anyone sat and watched some of the old Wong Fei Hung movies, noting how slow and weak some, let's be honest, a LOT of the moves are, and thought about JKD and Bruce Lee? I mean, if you look at it, if that, and the fight of Tai Chi VS White Crane on youtube, was the state of the art, could that be part of Bruce Lee's move to change things, especially after boxing in his youth, etc? I have been told that Japanese Karate was very popular in Hong Kong in the 60's and 70's- a sort of, if you can't beat 'em, join attitude.

Yes, Way of the Dragon has Tang Lung declaring himself a "Chinese Boxer", but little that Lee does in the movie in "Chinese Boxing"- though I will admit that the finishing of Colt is a pure Wing Chun style uppercut arm break and Wing Chun knee destruction kick. Most of what he does in boxing, TKD kicking with a little Kung Fu thrown in (very little).

I do not, BTW, consider Sanda a true, direct expression of Shaolin Kung fu, etc.

Anyway, I have a feeling some of the guys moved slow as not to hurt each other, but who knows?

[shukocarl]

Lee's expression of JKD came through (of course) Wing Chun, Boxing and Fencing. As a student of JKD I know his kicks were not from TKD. He had his own unique way of kicking. A side kick in any style is still a side kick...is it from TKD? Is it from Karate? It's daft to label such a thing in JKD. Sure he was impressed with Nishiyama, Rhee & Norris's kicks but he didn't copy, he took the kicks and made them his own.

As to film fights, I think most old school fights show a lack of real power probably because the stunt guys were reluctant to get hit for real (though they'd jump off cliffs etc! LOL)...obviously as time went on realism became the norm until it became HYPER-REALISM (The Raid etc),,,real powerful techniques in in unreal scenarios......

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

I read several interviews that mentioned Lee saw Joe Lewis' side kick, and practiced the hell out of it, than came back and showed he could do it just as well. I know he picked up the spinning heel and hook kick from tae kwon do, it really isn't in any of the kung fu he was exposed to. As far as making things his "own", I think a certain amount of people have done that as much as Chuck Norris' spin hook looked different from Byong Yu's or Jhoon Rhee's etc.

Have you seen the Youtube video of the Tai Chin master and the White Crane master in the ring? It's pretty funny.

[laagi]

If you haven't already, check out Lee's only ever recorded interview (TTBOMK) on DVD, youtube or the likes.

I think part of the reason Lee also didn't want to publish books on HIS Martial Way, is the exact reason what we're talking here about. Style this Style that... It's really pointless.

I don't mean to step on any one's toes here, but this discussion has been going on forever and ever. Lee developed something which in his opinion was right for HIM and that's exactly what one should do.

If you can find a Martial Way that suits you and you can expand on that idea with your on thoughts, practices etc. and you do all that with your heart and soul, than that's it! And most importantly than that's it for YOU.

Anyway, just my two cents

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

Back to the topic then, I was always curious to see what the full contact Championships that Chen Kuan Tai won looked like. He had a reputation as a bodyguard for a gangster, at least that is what I heard, so that gave him some street cred. He seems to be one of the first guys besides Lee to start moving really fast, etc.I'm sure he had to send out the obligatory challenge to Lee, as did Chiang and Lung. Very curious to see his version of applied Kung Fu in a contest.

[thekfc]

Has anyone sat and watched some of the old Wong Fei Hung movies, noting how slow and weak some, let's be honest, a LOT of the moves are, and thought about JKD and Bruce Lee?.........

Yes, I have seen a bunch of them & I enjoyed them.

Keep in mind that some of the WFH movies were made 20+ years before "Way of The Dragon"; with a vast majority of them being made in the 50's. A time when 75%- 80% of members of this forum were not born yet, a time when the theme was opera. Watching a movie made 50-60 years ago as oppose to today (or 20 years ago) will look slow and weak.

And as you can tell with time - some of them got better.

[shukocarl]

I saw a tape of a large Hong Kong "Kung fu" tournament in the early 80's (Ron Van Clief actually took part in it!)...the fighting was absolutely sh*t....looked like "swingy arms" but with real contact. I hope Chen Kuan Tai looked better in his fights because he was a real martial artist and always seemed capable of real power. The fighters looked 20yrs behind the skill of European and US tournament fighters.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

I would think Chen looked the same. It took a while before the US point fighters were able to adapt to full contact, and about 90% of the guys that were rated for points in Karate Illustrated could not make the transition. Most got blown away by 3rd rate boxer who learned a few kicks (J L Theiuralt, etc) and Joe Lewis was knocked out in Hawaii by a nobody boxer. I think, in a way, when you compare Lee to the points guys, he looks good, but I don't recall Olympic Wrestlers, Thai Boxers, Boxers and Judoka quaking in fear of him, and I was around in the MA world in the 1970's. Lee was a giant among midgets, as well as from what I can tell, had very few scuffles. James Wing Woo laughed about the much publicized match with Wong Jack Man and said, basically neither one of them have had any marks on their faces the next day, so it couldn't have been much of a fight.

[paimeifist]

Yeah at the end of the day comparing a "real martial arts" actor to another actor who learned martial arts through acting is still much different than comparing either one to a professional (or amateur) competitive fighter.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

I think Bruce was a great martial philosopher, and a good athlete by the standards of the time, but there is a good article on how he would compare today, and probably even at the time

-I. Physical strength.

Numerous persons have stated that Bruce Lee possessed

an incredible amount of strength. Based on his exercise program, it appears he was of below-average lower body strength. According to the strength training program Lee used during 1965 (Lee, 1989), he performed squats using 95 pounds with 10 repetitions. This would equate to an estimated 1 repetition maximum (1RM) of 130 pounds (Wathen, 1994), which would place him below the 25th percentile for the 121-140 pound weight class among adult males (Hatfield, 1993).

This type of estimation for the 1 repetition maximum is standard among

athletic trainers to assess the strength level of a wide range of athletes,

both professional and amateur.While some chart estimates may vary slightly from one to another, most are within approximately 10% of one another.

Some readers, who are accustomed to viewing Lee as possessing epic strength, may assert that Lee probably was not using his maximum ability at that time. It is therefore noted that this regime occurred prior to Lee's well-known back injury. Furthermore, if Lee was capable of performing the squat exercise with more than 95 pounds for 10 repetitions, one must question why this was part of his established routine or, alternatively, why he would be committing himself to a method of underachievement by using too low an amount of weight to stimulate the greatest strength gains possible.

To further demonstrate this below-average lower body strength, the estimated

130 pound maximum estimate would mean Lee was not prepared for plyometric training (a type of explosiveness exercise) which requires the ability to squat a minimum of 1.5 times the body weight (Allerheiligen, 1994).In other words, at an approximate body weight of 140 pounds, Lee would need to have squatted 210 pounds to engage in plyometric training based on recognized standards for training of athletes by today's standards.

Lee's upper body strength is another matter altogether and, when understood from a sport science perspective, partially explains his on-screen appeal. Once again, according to the program used during his 1965 stay in Hong Kong, Lee performed bicep curls using a weight of 80 pounds and 8 repetitions. This would equate to an estimated 1 repetition maximum of 110 pounds and would place him in the 100th percentile for the 121-140 pound weight class.From a training perspective, one must question how a discrepancy of this proportion, between his upper and lower body strength, evolved in Lee's training. Nevertheless, it demonstrates that his upper body strength was developed to its maximum potential.

Numerous observers of Bruce Lee, such as deceased Kenpo master Ed Parker, have stated Lee was perhaps the strongest "pound for pound" martial artist. Sport science can confirm this possibility. Numerous assessments of athletes throughout the past few decades have confirmed that smaller athletes are proportionately stronger than larger ones.This is due to the fact that a muscle's maximum contractile force is proportional to its cross-sectional area.In laymen's terms, this means that a smaller athlete has a higher strength to mass ratio than larger athletes.

Stated practically, as body size increases, body mass increases more rapidly than does muscle strength. In a colloquial sense, it could be said this is similar to the "law of diminishing returns." Certain martial art film stars such as Jean Claude Van Damme and Jeff Speakman may look better due to their mass, but their actual strength, in proportion to body weight, would be less than a relatively light person such as Lee.Incredible speed is inherent to superior strength at a low body weight.

Since Lee never weighed more than 143 pounds yet possessed superior upper body strength in the 100th percentile, this would account for the lightening speed he demonstrated on film. With more mass, he would not have been as fast and would not have appeared so on film.

II. Aerobic capacity.

Lee was known to advocate running as the best cardiovascular exercise (Lee, 1975) and is reported to have run 2 miles in 15 minutes or 6 miles in 45 minutes (Storm, 1986; Lee, 1989).In either case, this would mean an approximate pace of a 7 minute 30 second mile. This pace equates to a VO2 max of approximately 50 ml/kg/min (Noakes, 1991). The VO2 max is a method employed by sport scientists to estimate an individual's maximum capacity to use oxygen during extended exercise.

The average VO2 max among healthy young men is between 45 and 55. Lee's estimated value of 50, based on his running times, would place him squarely in the middle of average healthy young men. The values among elite runners and cross-country skiers is usually a range between 75 and 85 ml/kg/min. In other words, Lee's aerobic capacity was quite average. Once again, certain readers who are accustomed to viewing Lee in epic proportions may assert that Lee was not running his fastest and was capable of more. Considering his personality, if this were true it arguably would have been publicized somewhere.

In contrast to Lee's estimated aerobic capacity, a Canadian research study published in 1995 demonstrates that elite kickboxers possess a VO2 max of 62 (Zabukovec and Tiidus, 1995). In controlled laboratory measurements, elite kickboxers had recorded values of aerobic capacity that are comparable to a person who runs a 4:45 mile, or a 34 minute 10k foot race. It is a curious notion, therefore, that Lee was considered to be an aerobic phenomenon. Current elite kickboxing competitors register higher aerobic capacity than did Bruce Lee.

III.Personal Character.

The great karate master Gichin Funakoshi stated that martial artists should show great concern for family and relationships. "The mind of the true karateka should be imbued with (family) concern before he turns his attention to his body and the refinement of his technique" (Funakoshi, 1975).

In contrast, Lee is reported to have been involved in several extramarital affairs and, in fact, died in the apartment of a woman with whom he has intimately involved (Beeckler, 1996).

Lee also died without a will (intestate) which left his widow with almost a decade of legal battles to settle the matter of his estate. While some may argue that his early, unanticipated, death would have precluded finalizing a will, Lee was conscious enough of his own mortality that he purchased significant amounts of life insurance just months prior to his death.

And while Funakoshi admonishes martial artists to render honor to their families before refining themselves, when Bruce Lee did refine himself physically it was not in a wholly honorable fashion. In addition to the prescription medications Cortisone and Dilantin, he is also reported to have used anabolic steroids and diuretics to achieve his physique (Beeckler, 1996). It is also documented that he was a user of marijuana during the final three years of his life and it was discovered in his body during the autopsy.

Why the Best of the Best?

Bruce Lee did not compete in any sanctioned martial art events. He compiled no tournament record to demonstrate his ability as did other superstars of his generation such as Bill Wallace, Chuck Norris, Bob Wall or Mike Stone. Various anecdotes are reported regarding his superiority in street fights but is that a basis of considering anyone the best of the best in their respective sport or physical activity? Would the American public accept this reasoning if Pete Sampras said he was the best tennis player but refused to compete in Wimbledon? Or if Michael Jordan claimed to be the best basketball player but would only play in alleys and playgrounds, never on the professional hardwood court?

Today's martial athletes can demonstrate their abilities in an empirical

manner. For example, the IMPAX instrument records the total of punches and kicks delivered in a certain period of time and the total force of a strike or kick. The elite kick boxers surveyed in the earlier referenced study were objectively assessed regarding their aerobic and anaerobic capacity as well as maximum knee torque. In other words, the tools exist today to determine who is the best of the best among

martial artists. continued in next post

Sir Whirlysplat

Originally posted by Sir Whirlysplat

continued from last post smile

For better or worse, Lee escaped objective evaluation.

It's tremendously subjective but Bruce Lee is arguably considered the most noteworthy martial artist due to his magnetism on film. Regardless of any opinion about his actual martial art talent, or lack of empirical

demonstration regarding his ability, he expressed himself on the screen in a manner that no martial artist has equaled. And, by combining his upper body strength and light body weight, he possessed uncanny speed that visually made believers of anyone who saw him in action.

Reassessing the Usefulness of the Bruce Lee Myth

In one sense, Lee is forever a tremendous asset to the martial art community as his image and myth draws people to the arts. These fledgling martial artists may then be retained for more noble and enduring reasons than a desire to emulate someone whose example is questionable upon closer examination.

Once a martial artist reviews the reality of Lee's strength, aerobic capacity and personal character, a sober question must be addressed: should Lee's myth be actively deconstructed among novice martial artists? Perhaps not. That may be a function of maturity and be better emphasized in the later stages of training and spiritual development within the arts. Instead, people need a visual image to connect to and, until they begin to see their own selves in growing competency, may need the myth of Bruce Lee to sustain their training efforts.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

PS, This would still make Bruce heads above all the guys working in the HK movie industry with possibly the exception LKL and few others.

[paimeifist]

According to those stats, I have a stronger lower body, and can run a good deal better than Bruce Lee, lul...

With that said, I wish I had his physique! But again, he really wasn't trying to be the best fighter, he was trying to be the best showman, and he did a good job at that.

[fabhui]

But again, he really wasn't trying to be the best fighter, he was trying to be the best showman

I've had the good fortune to meet and train with numerous people that knew and trained with Bruce and the complete opposite is true. He was completely obsessed with being the most effective street fighter out there. This comes from people that knew him for years.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

I realize Bruce trained hard for the time, but the stats are the stats. How do you become a really good streetfighter? How do you prove that? If you get into enough brawls of any length there would be arrests and lawsuits.

JKD and Jun Fan kickboxing has not made the inroads we would have thought into MMA. And not being able to do eye pokes and kicks to the nuts is that much of an obstacle. Bruce was awesome for the time and arena that he was in- no contact to the face point karate- but now we have so many tools (which I am sure he would have taken complete advantage of) to improve that much of what he did now does not seem as impressive compared to current practitioners ability. I doubt he could have beat Benny Urquidez, but he would have chewed up a lot of the lightweight point fighters with his boxing alone. That doesn't mean he could tangle with a pro.

He once met John Tunney, son of world champ Gene Tunney, and claimed he could beat his dad, because he could kick his shins, etc. Completely disrespectful. Tunney had 70 fights, not sparring matches in backyards, but fights with big strong athletes. He was a heavyweight, wrote a book on boxing and lived to a decent age fathering 7 kids. He would have ate Lee for breakfast if they were the same age.

Go to Bullshido.net, there are many discussions of teh de4dly as they say, and how many claims have been destroyed by research.

[Jesse Smooth]

I've had the good fortune to meet and train with numerous people that knew and trained with Bruce and the complete opposite is true. He was completely obsessed with being the most effective street fighter out there. This comes from people that knew him for years.

Good to see you're still around.

[fabhui]

Good to see you're still around.

I'm still here lurking in the shadows

[sdog2006]

I realize Bruce trained hard for the time, but the stats are the stats. How do you become a really good streetfighter? How do you prove that? If you get into enough brawls of any length there would be arrests and lawsuits.

JKD and Jun Fan kickboxing has not made the inroads we would have thought into MMA. And not being able to do eye pokes and kicks to the nuts is that much of an obstacle. Bruce was awesome for the time and arena that he was in- no contact to the face point karate- but now we have so many tools (which I am sure he would have taken complete advantage of) to improve that much of what he did now does not seem as impressive compared to current practitioners ability. I doubt he could have beat Benny Urquidez, but he would have chewed up a lot of the lightweight point fighters with his boxing alone. That doesn't mean he could tangle with a pro.

He once met John Tunney, son of world champ Gene Tunney, and claimed he could beat his dad, because he could kick his shins, etc. Completely disrespectful. Tunney had 70 fights, not sparring matches in backyards, but fights with big strong athletes. He was a heavyweight, wrote a book on boxing and lived to a decent age fathering 7 kids. He would have ate Lee for breakfast if they were the same age.

Go to Bullshido.net, there are many discussions of teh de4dly as they say, and how many claims have been destroyed by research.

This is spot on.

I've had the argument out with friends of mine over the years who only admitted recently, when they're approaching 40 years of age, that I'm right. It's important to separate the martial artist from the fighter when it comes to Bruce Lee.

Lee was a martial artist with the emphasis on "artist". He wasn't a fighter and that's why he didn't train for REAL full contact fighting. If you take the training regime of an elite professional boxer, some of whom I'm around today, or a full contact fighter like Urquidez there is no comparison.

Although Lee was in "exceptional" physical shape he WAS NOT in fighting shape, he was not accustomed to being tagged and he wouldn't have had the endurance to keep off an elite level fighter capable of pressuring him.

You can sell me the full contact "sparring" in the garden, or Wong Jack Man, and I won't be buying it. When you're talking about lightweight professional boxers or men like Benny Urquidez and Peter Cunningham, he would have been battered to bits - fast.

That might sound like I'm opening a can of whip ass but I'm not. Lee was, without question, the finest "martial artist" I have ever seen. He wasn't a fighter though - point blank.

"Just because you like food, doesn't mean you can run a restaurant"

[KyFi]

I.

Bruce Lee did not compete in any sanctioned martial art events. He compiled no tournament record to demonstrate his ability as did other superstars of his generation such as Bill Wallace, Chuck Norris, Bob Wall or Mike Stone. Various anecdotes are reported regarding his superiority in street fights but is that a basis of considering anyone the best of the best in their respective sport or physical activity? Would the American public accept this reasoning if Pete Sampras said he was the best tennis player but refused to compete in Wimbledon? Or if Michael Jordan claimed to be the best basketball player but would only play in alleys and playgrounds, never on the professional hardwood court?

This was always my biggest problem with the Bruce Lee myth. I'm a fairly big sports fan, and the idea that you would consider somebody as one of the best in a certain sport, and he had never really competed at the highest levels---that's not something you could really take seriously.

Also, it's a fact that Bruce wasn't a professional fighter---and by that I just mean that wasn't what he did as a full-time job. He was a college student and then an actor, director, choreographer, filmmaker, writer, etc. He had a full plate, and there are only so many hours in a day. He didn't train martial arts as his main job, which is what professional fighters have to do if they want to be at the top.

That being said, some of the top professionals of the day--Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, Mike Stone--all trained with Bruce. From what I've read, all of them liked Bruce, all of them respected his abilities and knowledge, and all of them felt it was worth their time to train with Bruce. This tells me that those guys considered Bruce to be the real deal, someone who was pretty much at their level. Still, I don't think any of those guys ever described Bruce as the best fighter they had ever seen, or the best in the world, or anything like that.

So I guess my take is that Bruce was a very intelligent, talented martial artist, and he had some incredible natural abilities. And he was certainly a charismatic screen presence who had a huge influence on both film and martial arts. I think that's a pretty impressive legacy without it having to be exaggerated to make him out as one of the greatest fighters in history, when there's really not much evidence to support that.

[shukocarl]

Bruce Lee never intended to become a "Champion"...he always said his gung fu was for self defence. Joe Lewis was his "tournament project"...he never lost during his period training with Lee - using Lee's fight strategies...when you also have Norris, and Stone training with you it definitely builds up your profile. I think he would definitely have been good in a street fight but because he never fought the pro's (or trained to fight them) he relied on his P.R. and mystique. If he'd been beaten in a pro fight he could have gone either way...trained to become a lightweight champion (because of his ego) or stuck to films.

[Killer Meteor]

On 9/3/2014 at 3:36 PM, NoKUNGFUforYU said:

Back to the topic then, I was always curious to see what the full contact Championships that Chen Kuan Tai won looked like. He had a reputation as a bodyguard for a gangster, at least that is what I heard, so that gave him some street cred. He seems to be one of the first guys besides Lee to start moving really fast, etc.I'm sure he had to send out the obligatory challenge to Lee, as did Chiang and Lung. Very curious to see his version of applied Kung Fu in a contest.

Am I reading this right? David Chiang challenged Bruce Lee? That would have been a funny gulf of skills...unless Chiang really could do that super-strength throw and flying he does in The Water Margin.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

1 hour ago, Killer Meteor said:

Am I reading this right? David Chiang challenged Bruce Lee? That would have been a funny gulf of skills...unless Chiang really could do that super-strength throw and flying he does in The Water Margin.

This was all hearsay, from a friend in HK. Supposedly everyone challenged him, but who knows, most likely if it happened, a PR stunt. People were trying to get Tan Tao Liang and Bruce into a match, though Tan said he himself was not into the idea.