Martial arts films seems less appealing these days...

[DiP]

Well, according to someone I intensely yet insightfully got into a debate with today at youtube who also described himself as devoted follower of martial arts/fight films. He claimed that general audiences have given up on classics made in Hong Kong and Japan and now seeks more authenticity/realism/visceral brutality in fight scenes or exaggerated agility, and that mere martial arts in fight choreography is a thing of the past, outdated and something only to cult followers' liking. But something so absurd and amusing about this poster was that he claimed that the comparison of the amount of general audiences preferring realism/brutality contra cult followers made a huge difference --- basing his argument on industry data, box-office numbers and quantity of productions per year --- and felt that cult followers were within a minority.

As both a general viewer and cult follower, do you guys see any truth in this poster's claims or is there something missing?

[Drunken Monk]

Cult followers will always be a minority. That's why we're cult followers. But I don't think the interest in kung fu cinema has waned. Not really. If anything, modern day brutality is a fad. It's the new kid on the block everyone has latched onto. And that's fine, but there will always be an appreciation for the classics.

Weirdly, I've found myself with a newly formed appreciation for wire work. I'm genuinely enjoying over the top "wire fu" way more than I once did. I loved "Detective Dee" and look forward to giving "Flying Swords of Dragon Gate" a go.

We all go through stages. I don't think the success of "The Raid" marks a time where nobody will care about traditional kung fu cinema. It always comes full circle.

[masterofoneinchpunch]

I'm not sure general audiences have ever known about the classics in either Hong Kong or Japanese cinema.

There is nothing authentic or realistic about fight scenes in general -- even today. There is nothing realistic about the shaky cam fight scenes in any of the Bourne films or its progeny (actually there is nothing really knew in what David Bordwell calls “intensified continuity,” with quick-cutting being found in Eisensteinian montage and shaky-cam.) Most "real and authentic" fights tend to be quick, messy and relatively uninteresting.

I'm not sure audiences in general prefer brutality (of course we have to define brutal). I would state that PG-13 films tend to do much better box office wise overall than R rated films. Just look at boxofficemojo and see how many PG-13/PG films are in the top 10 (looks like 9 out of 10 and none of the ten are what I call brutal.)

I'm curious if you can share the data he gave to you. I'm sure we could refute some of it or at least shed light on what he is trying to accomplish with his statements.

Cult followers tend to be a minority, but occasionally it breaks into the mainstream (Star Trek and Star Wars.) The martial art fans are a minority, that is true, but I do not think mainstream audiences prefer brutal over beauty. They may prefer benign or are uneducated about proper fighting techniques or what constitutes a shapes film versus a basher, but I do not think they ultimately feel one way or another as long as there are comic book characters in the movie.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

Even Sammo said fighting is short and ugly. Watch all the Youtube fights and tell me if you see anything that looks "cool".

All the Bourne stuff has trapping and FMA, which is really unrealistic in most situations.

Right now, there are a lot of vicious fights in certain movies, such as Sin City and Batman, but that underlies a certain anger and proto-fascism that is infecting the USA.

There is also a lot of what is called Torture Porn in movies as well.

That to will pass, probably.

[Lionclaw]

All I care about is nicely choreographed fights with even exchanges and people actually hitting each other. In my opinion The Wrath of Vajra was a perfect example of how to do a modern kung fu movie and I hope to see more like it. While I don't need super gory violence in my action movies, bloodless fight scenes throw me out of a movie.

[DiP]

I'm curious if you can share the data he gave to you. I'm sure we could refute some of it or at least shed light on what he is trying to accomplish with his statements.

Yeah, sure thing. The discussion took place in the comment section of a video showing the final fight of Flash Point:

Xentradi97: While the choreography is impressive, I'm not thrilled by this type of fights anymore. It needs to be either gritty and brutally realistic (a la Korean style Man From Nowhere/ Hollywood style Bourne series) or completely over the top acrobatic (a la Thai style Ongbak or Indonesian style The Raid), one extreme or another.

HK style actions...aside from the classics I grew up watching, it just feels done to death and cliched, lacking in visceral impact.

Me: Pretty ironic for you to say that considering that The Raid films employs the exact same style of fight choreography (hit, block, kick, punch, <repeat) from those classic HK action films.

Anyway, these days it's pretty hard to come up with new stuff and while I think Thailand, Indonesia and Korea have had success in bringing their own flavor, their stuff is also beginning to get cliched and repetitive because they keep making moderns and using the same style.

Xentradi97: Not really. What was refreshing about Raid or Ong Bak was the hard hitting impact and keeping it visceral and acrobatic. Styles in Korean tend to be even more visceral going for more realistic feel rather than beautifully choreographed.

HK style lacks that. It's just too pretty, lacks realism and really appears choreographed. It worked in the past. It was beautiful and entertaining. I still enjoy old HK movies (in fact I think choreo on older movies are better than today) and it has classic feel like watching old western movies.

But we've seen too much of that and due to MMA's and what not people know what real fights supposed to look like, which alienated audience further.

Martial Art movies pretty much died in mid to late 90's going to B or C category or straight to video. Now when I watch this type of fight, I yawn.

Sure, other styles of fights could become old and boring too once we've seen too much of it like HK style. But closer you get to reality, people will have less problem accepting that.

Me: Ong Bak was hard hitting and visceral yes but what was more memorable was how it redefined muay thai onscreen: putting a new twist on it unlike anything done before. But since then, it hasn't evolved much and been done the same. The Raid films are just hard hitting/visceral but lacks originality because it's obvious that the director/fight choreographer emulates HK and Thai MA action films. The Koreans are damn good at making plausible fight scenes but they aren't that versatile otherwise. Modern action thrillers are the norm in Korean action cinema these days.

HK action genre have many sub-action genres and therefore are more versatile in staging fight scenes since each sub-genre has their own flavor. You may call the fighting too pretty, lacks realism (so does Ong Bak and The Raid films, the action in those are plausible in context to film-making but not realistic lol) and appears choreographed but that's what people that grew up with like to see. And it depends on which films you refer to as well because not all HK action films are pretty, unrealistic and stage-looking (Ong Bak for example has alot of power in the fight scenes but it looks like the performers are in a demo which take away the momentum of the fighting). This clip is hard-hitting and visceral but maintaining the elements of classic HK style combined with MMA. And if you want something more gritty and visceral, watch the final fight of Special ID. Donnie is pretty much the only guy in Hong Kong who goes away from the traditional HK style to making more "realistic" fight scenes these days. Plus he does all different types of action movies beside moderns so he can adapt to anything and make any fighting style look authentic. Modern, traditional, creatively, improvisationally, bare-handed, weapons etc.

I don't know if you are a devoted follower of martial arts films but they didn't die down at all (they did in the US). They just went back to Asia and, like you said, underground (b-films). At least, they kept being made.

Bottom-line: Visceral, plausible and brutal fight scenes are nice to see but if you keep recycling ideas and not come up with different stuff regularly then people will get bored fast. Martial arts films as a whole is a big spectrum and always have room for different ideas in fight choreography to be elevated so I don't see why fight scenes always have to be about "realism" and power. It's like art, you keep elevating your skills by moving on to something new and fresh.

Xentradi97: I grew up on HK movies so I seen all type of choreography from period films to Modern to gritty gangster film. Yes they vary but not much. It feels very much choreographed. Donnie's fights are no where realistic. He tries but it still looks very choreographed. It's outdated. Today's audience are not impressed by long fight set pieces where fighters exchange perfect and pretty kicks, punches and flips and seem to go on fighting forever without getting tired.

Creativity and originality comes in all shades. Having a pretty choreo doesn't make the action sequence any more original then simply having visceral cruelty.

With that said, HK style of action have been done of 30 over years. Visceral actions that's more realistic a lot less. So naturally it'll have more mileage.

And Audience will never get tired of realism vs actor kicking ass in a nicely choreographed manner.

I'm a movie fan of all genre. I seen all manners of MA or fight films and have seen them reach their peak in late 80's to go the way of dodo and become a B movie straight to video in 2000 and beyond.

It's funny how you mentioned recycle ideas. As I seen that mostly in HK or wannabe HK action films from late 90's. There's so many ways you can choreograph a fight just to make it look good.

But impact will always be less then realistic fights that's done well for most of today's audience save hardcore MA flick geeks.

Me: Which isn't necessarily a bad thing unless you're someone who's been spoiled by watching too much grittiness/brutality rather than trying to appreciate all kinds of action styles in films. As for Donnie Yen, his fight scenes aren't supposed to be realistic but only gives you hints of "realism" by adding intensity for visceral impact and making the moves look convincing while maintaining the exaggerated choreography approach. Besides, his goal is to seek different ideas for choreography in different films depending on the given material and adapt to it.

And you can't speak for everyone when you say that today's audience are not impressed by long fight set pieces consisting of performers exchanging fighting techniques in fast-paced manners. Where do you get that impression? There are different tastes and preferences so there will always be those that will continue to enjoy the HK style as much as others that enjoy gritty and brutal fight scenes.

Creativity/originality comes in different forms indeed as long as choreographers don't make it obvious that they have been influenced by other films. Choreography is open to anything so it doesn't matter if you're trying to do different stuff going for either a fancy or plausible approach. People will enjoy one style or the other or both in the end.

People will indeed never get tired of plausibility the same way as they will never get tired of watching HK action films, despite of its' current state. Btw, realism has nothing to do with brutality and grittiness and looks far more sloppy onscreen. One realistic MA film is Redbelt but look how that one was received. The Man From Nowhere may look less fancy than say, Fearless or Ip Man but the fighting is still exaggerated. Even the fighting/stunts in the Bourne films were somewhat far-fetched.

If you've seen all manners of MA/fight films than you should know that MA films were brought back to life when The Matrix and Crouching Tiger created a wave of films after their initial release. So you can't say that MA films in general were at their peak in the 80s and got worse and went straight-to-video based on just what you prefer seeing. You should look at it in all angles (popularity, cult followings).

I agree that HK MA action films have recycled alot but that's what you get when talents don't have the heart to strive for creativity and improvement but still managed to take the classic style to new times rather doing giving up on it. With Donnie around there's still hope. But like I said, these days it's pretty hard to elevate action films, so automatically talents will stay on their lane for a while until audiences start responding and they will have to try something different. This goes for everyoe: Korea, Japan, Indonesia, Thailand, b-films, indi films.

Xentradi97: Martial film as a whole, compared to 80's and 90's in great decline to support my point. Once in awhile we get something new and refreshing like Ongbak or Raid but overall, it's more of a backdrop.

The overly choreographed styles of HK isn't that exciting anymore nor can we see an MA action star in Hollywood like Jean Claude or Seagal.

Donnie is old. And to be honest one of the reason why HK film has been in decline. Almost 7 out 10 films have Donnie in it. It's time they brought in fresh young bloods and talents and come up with some new ideas.

I've not seen any film of worth out of HK since Infernal and Maybe a small gem like The Eye In the Sky.

Me: We can agree that the 80s and mid 90s were the golden age for MA films but that doesn't mean MA films are in decline nor people aren't supporting new MA films anymore. They are still being made. Just look up fight scenes for new MA films and tell me if the majority of comments are based on people bashing them.

It's a subjective matter so if you feel like it then more power to you. But I totally disagree. Visit any action movie community and you'll see that people still talk about classic MA films and are still excited to watch them and share their opinions with others.

Donnie is aging but he's not that old. 50 isn't even considered being old for action performers. Stallone is old, Schwarzenegger is old, Sammo Hung and Jackie Chan are old. Does that stop them from making action films? No. If you know Donnie then you should know that his physical prowess is exceptionally consistent and can still do most of the stuff he did back in the day and keep it up. Action talents in their late 40s/early 50s that can do demanding action films is not uncommon due to daily body/health training. The reason he gets lead roles is because he has proven himself to be a great actor beside his fighting talents. That what producers are looking for: qualities, experiences and strive for improvement.

Film industries should indeed bring in new talent but problem is that they can't act. Big studio execs don't want to invest on inexperienced talents so the only option for them is to learn more. China has lots of new action talents but they are only restricted to supporting roles or making TV series because they don't have developed performing qualities at the moment. It takes time.

Then it confirms my suspicion: you haven't kept up with recent films too well to faithfully judge the state of HK films. Pretty understandable. I've followed recent films and will say that HK is still doing well thanks to talents such as Donnie, Johnnie To, Dante Lam, Alan Mak/Felix Chong, Soi Cheang, Derek Kwok.

Xentradi97: Yes it is in decline. When's the last time you seen a mainstream MA movie? They are all B movies or straight to video especially ones with HK style elaborate choreo fights or fights that looks choreographed.

Problem with HK film is not the fact that Donnie is too old but there're no YOUNG BLOODS to retake its past glory.

I've been keeping up with what's going on in HK and China. HK's decline is partially due to its expansion to China, catering to China's censorship and audience making one epic costume movie after another.

As I said, MA movies are still being supported by MA movie geeks and hardcore fans. The rest of audience moved on. It's been milked to death and the type of action doesn't provide kind of thrill it used to because:

A: Audience have seen too much of it.

B: Audience today knows difference between fake action and visceral action conditioned by popularity of MMA and K-1 and others. They no longer romanticize type of fluid super human fighting sequence that clearly is far removed from reality.

I for one bored with the type of action. In fact, I'd rather watch old 80's HK classics. At least those still holds magic.

Me: The Matrix and Crouching Tiger made it mainstream and brought the genre back after they were out.

Like I said, China has lots of new action talent but since they can't act or lack experiences big film companies won't accept them in lead roles. Eventually, someone will take over the veterans places but not any time sooner.

China's censorship is starting to open up and things such as violence and drugs are being tolerated better although there's still alot of policy improvements to go through. China is now doing more contemporary films opposed to just doing costumes. Examples are Lethal Hostage, Drug War, Special ID, Let The Bullets Fly and the sequel. In comparison to HK's golden age, it has declined. But that has alot to do with people changing in preference so you get more genres being exploited to attract viewers. It's not about mere action films in HK anymore but all genres, just like in Hollywood or any other film industry.

And I will tell you this again, appreciation for MA films is not restricted to hardcore geeks only so it's nonsensical for you to say that everyone else has moved on to "realistic" fighting films. I know people who were long exposed to onscreen violence/grittiness/brutality but not MA films before until recently and ended up liking them as much as they like non-MA violence. I also know people who were long-time fans of MA films and have expanded their interest in onscreen fighting by watching more plausible fighting while still enjoying classic MA stuff.

It's your opinion so I respect that. But even back then, there were many bad films being made. Bad films aren't exclusive to new films only.

Xentradi97: Crouching Tiger is an exception. It was a hit in US as it was somewhat new to the audience. But it failed in all the Asian territory.

Matrix isn't really a MA movie. MA element was but small part of it. Story and special effect was the centre piece.

People you know who aren't geeks enjoying MA films are but small minority. The box office and industry number says otherwise. As well as number of such films produced per year.

I'm not arguing about bad or good films here. In every cinema only 10% are good. That wasn't what was being debated but the style of MA choreo like in this clip and MA movie genre itself is outdated and no longer current. That's not an opinion but a fact.

Me: Your sources are wrong then. CTHD was less successful in Asia compared to the west but it was still a hit and led to a new trend. The Promise, Hero, Flying Daggers.

You have a point. But the reason for what was to follow after it is not hard to figure out. Kung fu, wirework so you can't ditch the fact that part of the success of The Matrix is because its' use of kung fu and wirework. Look at Charlie's Angels films, Equilibrium, comic-book adaptations etc. The influence on HK MA films is too obvious.

You must really have a thing for pontificating things lol. I see many newbies in social medias who just got into MA films after being familiar with these so called "realistic" fighting films. And the popularity keeps growing so how the hell do you even contradict such phenomenon and say it's only a small minority? Box-office numbers doesn't matter because there's so many ways to get exposed to old and new MA films these days so the availability for everyone is now bigger than ever.

That's what you're implying though but whatever. There's nothing outdated in this clip because it's mixed with various practical styles and modern UFC techniques that's both fluid as well as brutal and visceral. If you look carefully you'll see what I mean. It's a fact that you can't look beyond. Classic HK MA style is outdated but still enjoyed by old school and newbies, whether they are MA movie geeks or not.

Xentradi97: Boy you're jumping from topic to topic. CT didn't do well in Asia where HK Kungfu was once popular. It didn't do well in China either. Singapore, Taiwan, HK, Korea and Japan etc...

Hero was a bigger hit in China because it echoed China's history with a hint of nationalism. It didn't have near success in the US as Crouching Tiger. Promise and Flying Daggers even less. But they did well in China.

Yes HK had influence on Hollywood. As Hollywood has taken for ages from France, Germany, Italy, Japan etc... No denying that but wireworks and action that was once big lost its flavor within few years. There were even attempts at emulating HK style action as close as possible but it became B-genre or straight to Vid. And again this is another topic.

Your so called source are but handful of people you encounter in your life and social media. My source is industry data, box office and numbers of movies released. Whose source you think is more accurate you think?

They all support what I said about old school MA movies with heavily choreographed and elaborate fights like in HK movies. They will always have a niche following but is no longer a mainstream genre and does not connect with audience as it used to in 80's.

Same goes for other type of actions be it car chase, gun fights, explosion. More realism and visceral action is in demand due to change in audience's appetite with SNS and camera everywhere making us to become witness to realistic actions and violence in real life.

Anywy I'm done with this. Hate repeating myself and it's going in circles.

Me: I'm simply responding to each of the paragraphs you wrote. What, can't you keep up or something?

If those films didn't do well then there wouldn't have been a demand for such films and a trend rising up in Mainland and HK in early 2000s. Flopped films don't create trends but successful films do so your point makes no sense at all. Also, Shaolin Soccer, Kung Fu Hustle, Fearless, Ip Man were successful mainstream MA films. The last film is the one that attracted lots of new viewers around the globe and still do to this day. In fact, the interest in MA films from HK/China keeps growing. What handful of people?

Industry data, box-office numbers are quantity of productions per year has no significance to me. Besides, I'm talking overall appreciation for classic and recent MA films and of all kinds, not which kind of MA/fighting films people prefer more and which action style does better at the box-office.

Mainstream action films are all about the usual stuff that has been done for years and only got back to doing authentic action when the trends in mid 2000s started fading away. But the fact remains, Hollywood still can't shoot action films the right away mostly. Too much editing, weird camerawork. The focus is now on Korea, China and Indonesia because they have more experience in shooting action. And people will continue to like what's being made in those countries. Deal with it.

"Realism" and visceral action has been in demand ever since the mid 2000s but that doesn't mean audiences can't still appreciate other stuff that's being made. There's no need to act like you know what most people prefer in action films based in "accurate" statics.

If you hate repeating yourself then don't come off as a know-it-all person by contradicting subjective views and make your own subjective points as facts so much next time. Have a nice day, sir.

That's one long post eh?

[DiP]

Weirdly, I've found myself with a newly formed appreciation for wire work. I'm genuinely enjoying over the top "wire fu" way more than I once did. I loved "Detective Dee" and look forward to giving "Flying Swords of Dragon Gate" a go.

That's good to hear. Check out Duel to the Death, the Swordsman films, and Dragon Inn.

[masterofoneinchpunch]

OK, finished that article, I mean lengthy post. I'll repeat myself when I state that there is nothing realistic about the fight scenes he likes (any agreements or disagreements what I wrote earlier?). Brutal -- yes. Not authentic though.

I do think he is confusing his preferences for everybody elses and ends up applying the logical problem of confirmation bias.

"Your so called source are but handful of people you encounter in your life and social media. My source is industry data, box office and numbers of movies released. Whose source you think is more accurate you think?"

This is a nice little bastardization* of the appeal to authority fallacy after the Poisoning the Well statement. Actually after this mix of logical poo poo I would have no longered written to him (if an argument ever goes to Ad Hominem attacks I try to stop automatically because nothing good will come from arguing further.) When you state that your source is that then give concrete examples (numbers, links, number of movies etc...) When you are arguing from a quantitative standpoint it is easier to support one's position. Let's use Donnie Yen. For example how many votes does Ip Man have on IMDB (it is also in the IMDB top 250 if you want to use some sort of qualitative analysis)? What is the most popular Chinese film of 2014 in China (The Monkey King) NOTE: it is hilarious how much Transformers made in China this year.

* The bastardization is that his authority quip is not backed up by stating who as well as that he seems to be lying about the sources. Normally this logical fallacy is used when you use one authority on one topic and use that person on another topic (like a philosophy professor promoting a back healing remedy or a movie star with politics .)

"The focus is now on Korea, China and Indonesia because they have more experience in shooting action. And people will continue to like what's being made in those countries."

Even those countries have been more influenced by Hollywood's style of "intensified continuity." I see more and more shaky came, fast editing, off angles etc... that are reminscent of Hollywood.

I could analyze more if you are interested.