What movie was it that you first realized an actor had no martial arts training?

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

Specifically, someone that you may have thought did have some training when you were young, but you grew up to realize they had none. Besides Wang Yu, of course, lol!

[the moose]

Well, when I was a little kid and we rented videos from the rental store it was mostly Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, chuck norris and some ninja movies. Back then I thought Jacki Chan was the 2nd greatest ever behind Bruce (probably like so many people who know who he is but have no idea of his background and culture) - Of course years late when I truley got into Hong Kong action movies I learned Chan was a peking opera performer and not authentic kung fu practitioner. And indeed, is not even the most physically talented of his peking opera classmates. Also (And I'm gonna get shot for this) I find Shaw Bros stars Fu Sheng and David Chiang are really not that good at fighting. They are incredibly charismatic and great to watch - but I reckon they are not upto standard compared to other shaw stars when it comes to applying the choreographied moves.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

A couple of things on Fu Sheng. Watch Police Force, his first credited role. He does some fights where his hands are tied up and it would be pretty hard to pull off the kicks without some decent training. He was a rich kid and lived in Hawaii, where it is said he studied Judo and Karate. Also, Heroes Two, he does some kicks that David Chiang and most of the others cannot do. That does not make him a Hung Gar expert by any means, so he was faking the gung fu, and learned the forms on the set, etc. He certainly wasn't a big wuxia guy, and most of the weapons he used were extensions of his hands, etc.

Now, could he fight? Probably not. Unless you are a natural bad ass, or done some other contact sports, just learning moves won't help you much. Sure, you can surprise a tough talking big mouth, but it won't do much good against guys that have served time or get into brawls all the time at clubs, etc.

Also, Sheng was injured pretty badly in one of his movies, and you can see how much it slowed him down. He was trying to move into comedy and get out of martial arts roles before he died tragically. Comedy was making more money than Kung fu as well.

I was a little shocked that Beardy (Leung Ka Yan) was faking it, but then I saw the beginning of Profile in Anger and saw that he could not hit the punching bag with any force, unlike Ti Lung in Mercenaries of Hong Kong. I think that Beardy had friends or read books on Kung Fu and practiced the stances a lot.

Like Jackie, Sammo and a lot of the other guys don't come off well when they have to pretend to be ring fighters. You can see they don't know how to do sparring footwork, unlike a Bruce Lee or even Bruce Liang. Actually, (I will get s%^& for this as well) Jet Li looks hilarious when he tries to do JKD/Western Boxing footwork in Fist of Legend. I can't even watch the movie anymore it is so bad. It just looks completely forced and awkward, and it kills the whole illusion.

[masterofoneinchpunch]

...

I was a little shocked that Beardy (Leung Ka Yan) was faking it, but then I saw the beginning of Profile in Anger and saw that he could not hit the punching bag with any force, unlike Ti Lung in Mercenaries of Hong Kong. I think that Beardy had friends or read books on Kung Fu and practiced the stances a lot.

...

Bobby Samuels (The Victim commentary) stated that Leung Kar-yan lived near to Sammo and Sammo helped him get into acting. I know he worked with Sammo quite a bit to look good. While I cannot find the interview right now I know Sammo has stated quite a lot of positive things about him learning fast and being in good shape.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Sammo probably did help Beardy a lot, but he looked good before he started working with Sammo.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

I have never read the interview, but for all we know he could have met Sammo when he started working at Shaws, who was working there in the 1960's, basically. That would be plenty of time to show him a few basics before 1974, when he started making movies himself. I knew guys in High school that got to be pretty decent picking up moves from their friends, and there was a highly ranked MMA fighter who learned a lot of his movies from How to tapes. In some ways, because of traditions, you have to kowtow and serve tea to be considered a student, etc, in some parts of Chinese culture, and have to have a lineage. On the flip side, for someone athletic (unlike a 90 lb weakling like me, who took it up to defend himself from bullies) like a gymnast or soccer player, they can pick up martial arts very fast. If you are really fit, it's not rocket science, even though they would have you believe it, as it is much, much more profitable.

Of course, what I am talking about is the guys that had no training even in Kung Fu, and you can tell, not MMA guys or Kickboxers, etc. I mean, there are kung fu and tae kwon do masters who cannot fight on the street-

S19VsB7__v0

[Drunken Monk]

Weirdly, I think my first was Jet Li. When I first discovered wushu, I realised that Jet Li's moves were far more "performance based" that actual fighting techniques. Prior to that, I'd thought Jet Li was the bee's knees and could beat anyone.

[fatcat]

Can't think of when it occurred to me, but this makes me think of a youtube clip I saw of Phillip Ko sayin,

"Lo Lieh doesn't have any kung fu!"

lol:squigglemouth:

[Morgoth Bauglir]

I guess it's possible for Leung Kar Yan to have first learned from Sammo. But I don't think I've seen Sammo or Leung state it an interview. It seems more logical to think of Lau Kar Leung as the first person who helped him become a great screen fighter.

[paimeifist]

Lo Liehs work, particularly with weapons(Dirty Ho, Fists and Guts) could fool anyone. He would also be the answer to the thread for me. He was my "favorite" as soon as I got into the genre, so he was just the first person I looked into.

I will say that when I found out about Beardy it was even more surprising though.

I also find myself underwhelmed with Fu Sheng, although I'll admit I haven't seen many films with him as the number one star.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

Paimefist, go buy or rent New Shaolin Boxer/Choi Lai Fut.

5KgIaHM9y9U

According to Wikipedia, he started to get some severe injuries on the set in 1977 and 78- Head injuries from a fall as well as a shattered leg from a different movie. That will slow down anyone.

There was even a young adult novel written about a young Hawaiin girls crush on him, lol!

"Alexander Fu Sheng Kicks Bruce Lee's Ass, Sonny Chiba and Toshiro Mifune Too"

Still, I get what some people are saying. Sheng was not buffed, if anything, a little doughy, and very relaxed. My old Kempo instructor said that his relaxation was good, actually, and a lot of the guys then were actually tense.

Wang Yu and Lo Lieh were the first two guys that I realized knew little if any kung fu. Wang Yu got away with it because he could street fight and his brawling at bars was legendary, where I think Lieh got away with it because he aged into looking really sleazy, so he got a lot of villain roles. I am sure he liked to party, having been married 5 times! Many of my Chinese friends seem to be of the opinion that before Bruce Lee, most audience goers did not seem to care if an actor really "knew Kung fu" in the athletic, beat the crap out of someone sense. I think Lee gets a little too much credit, as you can see some decent fighting in pre Bruce Lee movies, especially Wuxia flicks. I think that Lee brought international pride to the Chinese, and a cockiness that guys like David Chiang or Ti Lung could not pull off.

[paimeifist]

Ok, I'll check it out soon. I think out of what I have seen him in, I remember thinking he was decent in Shaolin Temple, but I was still more impressed with others, same with Avenging Eagle. I bought the Brave Archer last week but have yet to watch it. Everything else I have seen him in has been a smaller role I believe.

I agree about Bruce Lee getting too much credit, but I have always found Ti Lung to seem pretty damn cocky! Lol

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

Brave Archer sucks. I will send you a couple of recs.

[AlbertV]

For me, it was KILL OR BE KILLED. They tried to credit James Ryan as a martial arts champion, but I read somewhere that he had trained in karate exclusively for the film. The extra cast members' skills were far more superior to that of Ryan. It was Stan Schmidt and Norman Robinson who taught Ryan.

In the trailer for KILL AND KILL AGAIN, they credit James Ryan as 4-time world karate champion, but it was just to grab attention towards the film. Again, for someone who never had years of training prior, he fared well with the karate sequences.

And he did some nice butt kicking as the villain in KICKBOXER 5, especially against future X-MEN ORIGINS: WOLVERINE director Gavin Hood.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

James Ryan was truly awful. Actually glad to hear that he had no training, that would make it worse in a way.

[paimeifist]

Brave Archer sucks. I will send you a couple of recs.

Well that's a bummer, lol. Sounds good, let me know.

[The Dragon]

James Ryan was truly awful. Actually glad to hear that he had no training, that would make it worse in a way.

YEAH!

[KyFi]

I always thought Fu Sheng and Leung Kar Yan looked quite natural and fluid considering that they weren't really martial artists. For women, I thought Cheng Pei Pei and Shih Szu both looked naturally athletic.

For me, the second tier of Shaw screenfighters was Wang Yu, Lo Lieh, David Chiang and Yueh Hua. All of them occasionally looked good, usually looked okay, and sometimes looked terrible in their fight scenes.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

I always thought Fu Sheng and Leung Kar Yan looked quite natural and fluid considering that they weren't really martial artists. For women, I thought Cheng Pei Pei and Shih Szu both looked naturally athletic.

For me, the second tier of Shaw screenfighters was Wang Yu, Lo Lieh, David Chiang and Yueh Hua. All of them occasionally looked good, usually looked okay, and sometimes looked terrible in their fight scenes.

I don't know if this is accurate, but according to wikipedia-

Born as Cheung Fu-Sheng in Hong Kong, the son of a wealthy New Territories indigenous inhabitant businessman. As a child, his family lived in Hawaii for a few years and there he began training in judo and karate.

My understanding is that 2 years before his death he became an official student of Lau Kar Liang.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

I am shocked no one mentioned early Meng Fei. He looked like crap to me in the Prodigal Boxer, and that was when Two Heroes and Shaolin Martial Arts came out. Fu Sheng just blew him away. I know he got better, but just saying, Sheng owned the Fang Sai Yuk character. My understanding is that Sheng also started drinking pretty hard.

I mentioned this before, but Bruce Lee really blew a lot of HK stunt men away, but part of the reason that was is there were Opera guys, not fighters. That is why, when they looked for a replacement of Lee, they went looking at guys who did Tae Kwon Do or Karate, as there was sparring in those arts, and most Kung Fu guys did only forms (with the exception of a very, very few, like Chen Kuan Tai). As the years went on and there were more full contact Kung Fu competitions things changed, especially after the devastating losses against Muay Thai fighters in the 1970's. That was a big deal in the martial arts world. It's kind of funny, as the American and Japanese Karate and Tae Kwon Do guys almost all got knocked out in the first or second round as well when going up against Muay Thai.