Random Qs on HK/Shaw Bros. films

[I Am Caine]

So I thought I was pretty into kung fu movies until I found this site and this forum and learned that there's a TON of flicks I haven't seen and stuff about the genre I didn't know. I've got a hit list of classics I've been making my way through. Recently watched Ten Tigers of Kwangtung and one of the extras was a documentary on director Chang Cheh. Raised a few questions from me. Would any of you cinema sifus care to discuss?

-What changed between the 60s and 70s? I have more 60s fims to see but it seems to me that not only was the kung fu genre sort of new in the 60s but it imitated the Japanese samurai films quite a bit. What changed?

-What changed about the *fighting* in these films? Were the actors in the 70s better martial artists? Better choreographers? Seems to me that as much as I enjoy the 70s films the quality of the actors' kung fu has been getting progressively better, as well as the style shifting from to being much more sophisticated. I mean, Gordon Liu seemed on another level than the guys in Ten Tigers, and Jackie and them seem on another level to Liu.

-All right, how many sub-genre are there? I know what a wuxia film is and especially the modern versions in cinema, but someone in the Cheh documentary referenced "Cantonese" films, "boxer" films and kung fu films as distinct from wuxia. When Bruce Lee came on the scene, what was he doing that was different, more modern "street" kung fu as opposed to historic or wuxia?

-The production quality of the 70s films seems quite varied. A lot of the Shaw Brothers films really seem slapped together, whereas some of the stuff by, say Lau Kar-Leung, like Heroes from the East or Master Killer, seems to have a higher production value. I guess in HK in the 70s they were just knocking these movies out, right, and the lower production values, simplistic sets, and sometimes frantic editing were just expected? (Not sure always what films are Shaw and what aren't, not sure there is a distinct Shaw style.)

-So when did the HK gangster flicks take off? Chang Cheh was mentioned as an early progenitor of them.

I'm sure I have other Qs, and developing a long list of stuff to see. Interestingly, here's an interesting article on Chang Cheh films:

http://www.coolasscinema.com/2009/07/chang-chehs-13-best-action-films.html?m=1

And this one is from an archivist on HK movies:

http://www.thevine.com.au/entertainment/movies/top-10-martial-arts-films-you-havent-seen-and-should-20131021-266972/

[Omni Dragon]

-What changed between the 60s and 70s? I have more 60s fims to see but it seems to me that not only was the kung fu genre sort of new in the 60s but it imitated the Japanese samurai films quite a bit. What changed?

There was a lot of MA films before the 60's but partly I think it could be to do film survival of the films.

The oldest MA film I've heard about a is 1921 Wuxia film called THE LADY KILLER but it was destroyed the communists as they might encourage people to rebel. I assume that might be a fact the communists being very restrictive over film making, heard that a lot of the Shanghainese film makers came to HK(I assume that was around Chinese Communist Revolution)

There is thishttps://archive.org/details/greedyneighbors 1933 silent drama with some fights not I'd say there MA but there something from the pre60's era.

Obviously there was 80 or so Wong Fei Hung films from 1949-1970 which is mostly what I think of in the pre60's era these seemed to unarmed shapes(did feature weapons) & there was other MA films this era but I know little about them.

-What changed about the *fighting* in these films? Were the actors in the 70s better martial artists? Better choreographers? Seems to me that as much as I enjoy the 70s films the quality of the actors' kung fu has been getting progressively better, as well as the style shifting from to being much more sophisticated. I mean, Gordon Liu seemed on another level than the guys in Ten Tigers, and Jackie and them seem on another level to Liu.

I'm not too sure what quite happened but the action started to get less rigid & it did seem to flow better. Did the frame rate change around this time?

(Not sure always what films are Shaw and what aren't, not sure there is a distinct Shaw style.)

I think the company logo's at the beginning. & there is a distinct style. They often seem better quality than your average inde & their set Shaw tend to be very studio-bound which gives them an unique look & feel. The builds look for the most part than in other Fu films the blood is an unique colour more pink than else where even the fake tree's the leaf's look like the contrast is too high even power powder scattered across the floor sometimes. You could also search a film title on here http://hkmdb.com/ or somewhere & should be able to find out the company.

-So when did the HK gangster flicks take off? Chang Cheh was mentioned as an early progenitor of them.

There where gangster films(Heroic Gun/Bloodshed) before LONG ARM OF THE LAW in 1984 but that's the one I've heard made them popular then John Woo(who influenced by Chang Cheh) made A BETTER TOMORROW in 1986 started to mastered Bullet Ballet.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

On Jackie being better, I have to say, part of it is his undercranking of the camera, where you don't see that as much with some of Gordon Liu's work. I remember the American director of "the Protector" complaining about Jackie trying to get him to undercrank for the fight scene, and while he (the director) was a hack, he had a point. So, sometimes they seem "better" but it can be editing as well. Watch how static the camera is in an SB movie, and how quick the cuts are in a 1980s golden harvest movie.

I have wondered if Bruce Lee forced movie stars to train harder, in general, in Hong Kong. I know they looked for Kung Fu guys they could teach acting, as opposed to actors who could fake Kung Fu (David Chaing, anyone?)

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Actually, David Chiang trained hard on a regular basis, though mostly in screen fighting, but also learning the basics of different styles, and a hard workout program worthy of any kickboxing or karate practicioner. So saying he faked it, just irks me. I always wonder if people who questions DC's cred has seen flicks like The Loot and The Challenger. Cuz those are some of the sharpest shapes ever, if you ask me.

I would say less than half of what most of us consider "the kung fu stars" of the 70's and 80's had any extensive martial arts background. But I don't think Leung Kar Yan, Fu Sheng, Sammo, Jackie, Angela etc. faked it. They put in hard work for the screen, and was trained in stage combat with all that comes with it, and learning styles specifically for movies.

[AbeRudder]

Chiang was pretty dreadful fighting wise in the earlier movies, he may have trained but it takes time for it to kick in. He improved a lot later on though around 78 when he did Shaolin Mantis.

To answer the original post regarding fight choreography. I feel that Bruce Lee had a big part in the advancement of the fight scene, he was the first film star that really came across on film as a martial arts virtuoso. There were other guys that were real life martial artists that did fight scenes but they were never as graceful on screen as Bruce. He really set the standard on how a fight scene should look. Lau Kar Leungs fight choreography work on Chang Cheh's Shaolin movies was pivotal too. Those long exchange based animal form kung fu fight scenes became the standard for Kung Fu films during the 70s and early 80s. LKL as far as i know was the first guy to shoot fight scenes like that, there may have been shapes based fights before that but they never had the fluidity of LKL's fights.

[Kwok Choi]

-What changed between the 60s and 70s? I have more 60s fims to see but it seems to me that not only was the kung fu genre sort of new in the 60s but it imitated the Japanese samurai films quite a bit. What changed?

-What changed about the *fighting* in these films? Were the actors in the 70s better martial artists? Better choreographers? Seems to me that as much as I enjoy the 70s films the quality of the actors' kung fu has been getting progressively better, as well as the style shifting from to being much more sophisticated. I mean, Gordon Liu seemed on another level than the guys in Ten Tigers, and Jackie and them seem on another level to Liu.

-All right, how many sub-genre are there? I know what a wuxia film is and especially the modern versions in cinema, but someone in the Cheh documentary referenced "Cantonese" films, "boxer" films and kung fu films as distinct from wuxia. When Bruce Lee came on the scene, what was he doing that was different, more modern "street" kung fu as opposed to historic or wuxia?

-The production quality of the 70s films seems quite varied. A lot of the Shaw Brothers films really seem slapped together, whereas some of the stuff by, say Lau Kar-Leung, like Heroes from the East or Master Killer, seems to have a higher production value. I guess in HK in the 70s they were just knocking these movies out, right, and the lower production values, simplistic sets, and sometimes frantic editing were just expected? (Not sure always what films are Shaw and what aren't, not sure there is a distinct Shaw style.)

-So when did the HK gangster flicks take off? Chang Cheh was mentioned as an early progenitor of them.

Good thread.My 2 cents are not academic but based on the cinema going experience in my neck of the woods at the time many of these films were released.

When we first started appreciating the art of the bare hand combat in these films the heroes of the day were Wang Yu, Chen Sing, Man Kung Long, Barry Chan, Cheung Lik/Chang Li, Raymond Lui,Henry Yu Young, Yu Tien Lung and Alan Tang

This was mainly in the late 60's to mid 70's.It seemed that if you knew how to fight I mean a real street fighter or brawler and if you actually were a " Kung Fu " practitioner of some sort, with a bit of flair and panache,you were in.Since many of these guys can also contribute to the action direction of their films the fights in most of the kung fu films made at that time echoed the personalities of these actors based on characters and stories they were depicting on screen.

However one very clever guy called Lee Jun Fan/Lee Siu Lung/Bruce Lee realised that the kung fu movie had to transcend those norms by introducing realistic unique screen fighting techniques based on his knowledge and philosophy of martial arts.

Audiences were blown away by this Bruce Lee onslaught which revolutionised and set the precedence for future stars lurking to create their own unique styles based on prowess and ability.

Shaw Brothers were well established at the time and were doing well with David Chiang,Ti Lung , Chen Kuan Tai etc but something had to give.It was now time for the talented guys behinds the scenes to take the helm and show the world what the Shaw Studio can do.Liu Chia Liang / Lar Kar Leung came up with a brilliant idea to showcase Shaolin martial arts and all its forms with realistic choreography.This took the kung movie to the next level with actors like Fu Sheng,Chi Kuan Chun,Gordon Liu etc.Meanwhile Golden Harvest and other independent companies also had to stay in the game so enter Samo Hung,Jackie Chan,Yuen Biao who raised the stakes not forgetting the Yuen Brothers.

Chang Cheh also had to up the ante hence the glorious Venoms with Peking Opera,Chinese Opera and Taiwan Opera influences all, this for the benefit of us fan and we became spoilt for choice.

Jet Li and Donnie Yen later entered the fray with Shaolin Temple and Drunken Tai Chi and the rest is history.

Sadly after this we started seeing the demise of real martial arts and wire-fu (love/hate relationship) became the norm promoting non-martial arts stars popular with the youth.

With this summary you can check some of the references mentioned to observe the changes and improvements in the fighting styles of the Chinese Kung Fu movie over the years for the better or the worse.

HK gangster flicks had to come at some point as a refreshing change to the traditional Kung Fu movie although it was not completely new Alan Tang played a crucial role in this genre but the " Heroic Bloodshed " style probably came to the fore as jcrma has mentioned depending on where you reside with Long Arm Of The Law.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

The Club, Man on the Brink and The Coolie Killer, all predating Long Arm of the Law were also highly influential films in the gangster genre, and three kickass flicks to boot.

[I Am Caine]

Awesome responses, you guys, thank you. Kwok Choi, you from Hong Kong, and old enough to remember when some of these movies were new? I'm 41 and from the States so my experience with kung fu movies was Bruce Lee, obviously, and kung fu matinees on Saturday or Sunday afternoon television (always dubbed!). Also, being an American, got caught up in the ninja craze of the 80s and of course, Van Damme, Seagal, which I never cared for. In the 90s when Chow Yun-Fat hit the import movie scene (for us) I got crazy for HK gangster films. We have some Asian TV cable stations, too, so I got to see quite a few there.

Well, the picture is a lot clearer to me, now. I know there's a couple of books out there about Shaw Bros. I'd be curious about. They seemed to crank out a lot of movies and though they had sets I really feel like they did not care much for production values or even high falutin storylines. They were more interested in volume! But I got a lot more to learn here.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

Actually, David Chiang trained hard on a regular basis, though mostly in screen fighting, but also learning the basics of different styles, and a hard workout program worthy of any kickboxing or karate practicioner. So saying he faked it, just irks me. I always wonder if people who questions DC's cred has seen flicks like The Loot and The Challenger. Cuz those are some of the sharpest shapes ever, if you ask me.

I would say less than half of what most of us consider "the kung fu stars" of the 70's and 80's had any extensive martial arts background. But I don't think Leung Kar Yan, Fu Sheng, Sammo, Jackie, Angela etc. faked it. They put in hard work for the screen, and was trained in stage combat with all that comes with it, and learning styles specifically for movies.

My understanding is that Fu Sheng was already a black belt in Karate, when he lived in Hawaii. A lot of his kicks look like Karate kicks, not Hung Gar. I have to tell you, Chiang may have improved by 1980 or so, but I had to spend what little money I had as a teenager and risk my neck going to chinatown to see movies that he made in 70 to 77, and I always felt short changed, so don't take it personally. Also, I always hope that on a 4th or 5th viewing of Dracula and the 7 vampires, that I will find the fights acceptable, but no, he looks like he knows about as much as a yellow or green belt in that movie. As Wang Tao said in an interview "I saw the movies they were making and said 'I'm better than those guys'"

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

I think "the Shaw style" is one of the most distinct in HK cinema. You can spot a Shaw flick from miles away. As for production value, no one matched the Shaws. They had more means and opportunity than other studio or production company in Asia. One of the biggest movie making entities in the world. As far as storylines go, I think Ni Kuang spun his very best yarns for the Shaws, and what about all the Gu Long adaptations?

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

My understanding is that Fu Sheng was already a black belt in Karate, when he lived in Hawaii. A lot of his kicks look like Karate kicks, not Hung Gar. I have to tell you, Chiang may have improved by 1980 or so, but I had to spend what little money I had as a teenager and risk my neck going to chinatown to see movies that he made in 70 to 77, and I always felt short changed, so don't take it personally. Also, I always hope that on a 4th or 5th viewing of Dracula and the 7 vampires, that I will find the fights acceptable, but no, he looks like he knows about as much as a yellow or green belt in that movie. As Wang Tao said in an interview "I saw the movies they were making and said 'I'm better than those guys'"

I've never been fully convinced on that supposed MA background of Fu Sheng, but if it's true, then I stand corrected.

No David Chiang was never the strongest screen fighter, but he did improve over time. I was just kinda taking exception to the term "faking it".... hell, they were all faking it, in as much as screen fighting is not real.

[Kwok Choi]

Awesome responses, you guys, thank you. Kwok Choi, you from Hong Kong, and old enough to remember when some of these movies were new? .

Hi Caine I am not from Hong Kong but was lucky? enough to be alive and growing up at a time and place where Chinese kung fu movies was the new craze.

There was already a huge market in the Caribbean,Africa and the Middle East before Shaw Brothers' King Boxer aka The Invincible Boxer hit Western shores.

I started watching these movies in theatres when I was 8 - 9 years old (no censorship. they were not considered violent or had the ability to corrupt young minds) and I still vividly remember being blown out of the theatre by my first experience of those brave and extremely courageous beautiful ladies in The 14 Amazons.

I was so obsessed that I became a flyer boy in the early 70s free seats ...eh..... front bench of course which was even more fun.I have been making a living out of motion pictures,moving images,cinemas,preview theatres and educational film institutions ever since.

[I Am Caine]

That is awesome, Kwok.

So, am I wrong in thinking the production value of Shaw Brothers movies was low? Am I just comparing it to American movies of that time?

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

The Shaws had the sets, costumes and equipment. Now compared to say 20th Century fox, or MGM, they were low budget. I would say they were on the level of Hammer or American International- I read somewhere that a common phrase at Hammer (they made tons of horror movies) was "Do you want it good, or do you want it by Thursday?"

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

So, am I wrong in thinking the production value of Shaw Brothers movies was low? Am I just comparing it to American movies of that time?

It depends on what you compare it to, but yes... you are wrong:smile:

[masterofoneinchpunch]

That is awesome, Kwok.

So, am I wrong in thinking the production value of Shaw Brothers movies was low? Am I just comparing it to American movies of that time?

Yes on a few reasons. "Shaw invested an average of HK$800,000 in everyone of his pictures, which after 1965, were all made in color and for widescreen projection (Shawscope)" (POSHEK FU: The Cinema of Hong Kong) Their Movietown at the time was an awesome studio and best HK had seen. Yes the Shaws took a Fordian approach to cinema (not unlike Golden Hollywood) but it had at least 11 stages, fifteen permanent sets, brought in Japanese filmmakers and technicians, had their own publicity team, had their own schools for acting (now they did not pay the actors much keeping costs down).

With the huge sets, large casts, great costumes I'm not sure how you could consider the production value low. And to compare it, watch the Cantonese realist films from a decade earlier.

[reason108]

So I thought I was pretty into kung fu movies until I found this site and this forum and learned that there's a TON of flicks I haven't seen and stuff about the genre I didn't know. I've got a hit list of classics I've been making my way through. Recently watched Ten Tigers of Kwangtung and one of the extras was a documentary on director Chang Cheh. Raised a few questions from me. Would any of you cinema sifus care to discuss?

-What changed between the 60s and 70s? I have more 60s fims to see but it seems to me that not only was the kung fu genre sort of new in the 60s but it imitated the Japanese samurai films quite a bit. What changed?

-What changed about the *fighting* in these films? Were the actors in the 70s better martial artists? Better choreographers? Seems to me that as much as I enjoy the 70s films the quality of the actors' kung fu has been getting progressively better, as well as the style shifting from to being much more sophisticated. I mean, Gordon Liu seemed on another level than the guys in Ten Tigers, and Jackie and them seem on another level to Liu.

-All right, how many sub-genre are there? I know what a wuxia film is and especially the modern versions in cinema, but someone in the Cheh documentary referenced "Cantonese" films, "boxer" films and kung fu films as distinct from wuxia. When Bruce Lee came on the scene, what was he doing that was different, more modern "street" kung fu as opposed to historic or wuxia?

-The production quality of the 70s films seems quite varied. A lot of the Shaw Brothers films really seem slapped together, whereas some of the stuff by, say Lau Kar-Leung, like Heroes from the East or Master Killer, seems to have a higher production value. I guess in HK in the 70s they were just knocking these movies out, right, and the lower production values, simplistic sets, and sometimes frantic editing were just expected? (Not sure always what films are Shaw and what aren't, not sure there is a distinct Shaw style.)

-So when did the HK gangster flicks take off? Chang Cheh was mentioned as an early progenitor of them.

I'm sure I have other Qs, and developing a long list of stuff to see. Interestingly, here's an interesting article on Chang Cheh films:

http://www.coolasscinema.com/2009/07/chang-chehs-13-best-action-films.html?m=1

And this one is from an archivist on HK movies:

http://www.thevine.com.au/entertainment/movies/top-10-martial-arts-films-you-havent-seen-and-should-20131021-266972/

Everyone here has pretty much covered it but I would just like to add that I think that some of Shaws strongest movies are perhaps some of their lesser known movies. Everyone is pretty much familiar with Venoms, Pops, etc… but I think that there were many good films that came out right before Bruce Lee or just right after him. Even though the martial arts in those films does not hold up to those that would come later but the stories were pretty good. Good drama along with some good action. Though, if you watch enough Shaws films you will see a lot of the same sets being used over and over again. They certainly got use out of the same things. But, here is a short list of some good, but lesser known, films worth checking out by Shaws.

A Deadly Secret

The Devil`s Mirror

Judgement of an Assassin

The Imperial Swordsman

The Lady Assassin

The Black Tavern

The Vengeful Beauty

[Killer Meteor]

The Shaws had the sets, costumes and equipment. Now compared to say 20th Century fox, or MGM, they were low budget. I would say they were on the level of Hammer or American International- I read somewhere that a common phrase at Hammer (they made tons of horror movies) was "Do you want it good, or do you want it by Thursday?"

Shaws big advantage over Hammer was that Shaws owned the theatre chains. Hammer did have their distribution label, Exclusive, but was frequently reliant on funding and distribution from the Hollywood majors.

[AbeRudder]

That is awesome, Kwok.

So, am I wrong in thinking the production value of Shaw Brothers movies was low? Am I just comparing it to American movies of that time?

Some Shaw bros flicks were obviously very cheaply made but they had quite a few bigger budgeted films.

Seven Man Army was one of the larger budgeted films. Compared to Hollywood films the budget for Shaw Brothers flicks was definitely lower though.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

I would also say they were "efficiently" made. I have no doubt that they would film two Wu Xia movies on the same day, with the same extras and casts in different locations on their lots. Why change make up and costumes? When you compare this to an American actor getting into "character", you can see this rushes their "process" of the "craft".

[I Am Caine]

I see what you guys are saying. I am just comparing Shaw Bros. movies to American movies. I mean, Ten Tigers of Kwangtun came out in 1979, same year as, say, Alien, Apocalypse Now, The Muppet Movie, Star Trek, Moonraker - this is what I was comparing it to.

So did Shaw Bros. also do the dubbing? I've always wondered if there was a stable of the same basic voice actors that did the dubbing.

[I Am Caine]

BTW, I get what the "bashers" style of cinema fighting is (wild swinging arms and haymakers, a bit slow) but what is "shapes" in this context?

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

mid 70's to early 80's intricate, stylized choreo.

[NoKUNGFUforYU]

Shapes- Usually it means animal styles, at least to me.

[Killer Meteor]

I see what you guys are saying. I am just comparing Shaw Bros. movies to American movies. I mean, Ten Tigers of Kwangtun came out in 1979, same year as, say, Alien, Apocalypse Now, The Muppet Movie, Star Trek, Moonraker - this is what I was comparing it to.

So did Shaw Bros. also do the dubbing? I've always wondered if there was a stable of the same basic voice actors that did the dubbing.

Ten Tigers suffers from Shaw's sausage factory approach. They stopped making epics and started churning out tons of cheap (if fun) tat.

Shaw's Mandarin dubbing was in-house - its different to those you'd hear on a Taiwanese indie. I'm not sure if the English dubbing was done on site. Shaws mostly use the same company (the one with Ted Thomas), but some were done elsewhere, and very poorly.