Machete Kills

[SamSeed]

Just got back from seeing this and all I can say is go and watch it. It matches the first for over the top violence and fight scenes, with some things I was not expecting. Danny Trejo can still kick ass!

[Keung]

For whatever stupid reason I actually bought the first one on Blu-ray once without having seeing trailers, or even knowing anything about it. That was a mistake. It was awful!

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Naah, more of a Spy Kids fan....

[OpiumKungFuCracker]

Not that I care too much about the tomatometer rating but it's sitting on a 30ish percent right now. The first movie actually had a decent score with 72%

[QueMuchita]

A movie came out and the internet hated it? ....thats a first.

[Guest Markgway]

Any nudity?

[blue_skies]

I must admit I really don't get the point of deliberately making a bad movie, which is the way I see these newly made "grind house" films. Making a movie on a low-budget, or even no budget, trying to do the best you can with what you have available is pretty much where these movies originally came from. Whereas having stars that are being paid more than the entire budget of those films seems entirely ridiculous.

Robert Rodriguez started out with something like $7000 and made El Mariachi, delivering a lot for very little. Eventually he got to make Desperado for approximately $7 million delivering a good action movie, costing not a lot by Hollywood standards.

it just seems an absolute travesty spend over $10 million in a time when there are creative young moviemakers who could probably do better with 50 grand, just like Rodriguez back in the day.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Well said, blue_skies

Not to mention that the whole "grindhouse" fad was considered cool for about five minutes back in the mid naughts.... THIS IS 2013!

There are tons of amateur and indie filmmakers paying homage to their inspirations, just look at our own beloved genre, and they do it for whatever change they found in their couch and a bag of recyclable cans... and they are often more interesting than the ones that do it with studio backing and a million dollar budget... how sad is that?!

I never liked the whole RR/QT look-at-us-we're-so-cool brand of filmmaking, and I never understood why other genre fans who know their shit, do. But that's fine... it's all opinion.

[OpiumKungFuCracker]

So in order for one to make a grindhouse picture, he must meet the requirements of:

1. Young and upcoming director with a 50 thousand dollar shoe string budget???

You guys are aware that RR is known to make films like these??? He's not making Abraham Lincoln the sequel anytime soon. This is his style of film-making. He has the bigger budget because he earned it from being an unknown and made his way up. People pay to see his shit and I don't see a problem with that. His movies don't even cost that much, it's the stars that are going over budget. That's the cost of getting these high end celebrities to be in your movies, "MONEY!!!!

[OpiumKungFuCracker]

I must admit I really don't get the point of deliberately making a bad movie,.

To entertain the masses??? That's why we go to the movies??? Is there something else I should know about?

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

I wish no one would make a "grindhouse" picture, full stop.

[OpiumKungFuCracker]

LOL, as for Machete Kills/ I don't know why I'm not rushing to see it. I mean I will see it eventually but the first one was a little underwhelming for the most part.

[blue_skies]

Well said, blue_skies

Not to mention that the whole "grindhouse" fad was considered cool for about five minutes back in the mid naughts.... THIS IS 2013!

There are tons of amateur and indie filmmakers paying homage to their inspirations, just look at our own beloved genre, and they do it for whatever change they found in their couch and a bag of recyclable cans... and they are often more interesting than the ones that do it with studio backing and a million dollar budget... how sad is that?!

I never liked the whole RR/QT look-at-us-we're-so-cool brand of filmmaking, and I never understood why other genre fans who know their shit, do. But that's fine... it's all opinion.

Exactly it's like the independent/amateur filmmakers put their heart and soul into something, coming up with creative ways to achieve as much as they can.

To entertain the masses??? That's why we go to the movies??? Is there something else I should know about?

But are they really entertaining the masses? To partially quote TWC or are they playing to the sheep that think "the whole RR/QT look-at-us-we're-so-cool brand of filmmaking" is actually cool? Let's face it people go to sh*t action movies all the time, it's not like there's really an alternative is there? Most of the multiplexes have the same few Blockbuster movies and Hollywood pretty much controls everything.

Of course Rodriguez isn't going to direct an Oscar-nominated movie, no one expects that. I just think, no I know he can(or could) make a good action movie but this current sh*t just isn't even trying. it's not like it's even studio interference as he's practically been in full control of his movies since Spy Kids. Interestingly from my point of view that's when he stopped making entertaining movies.

[OpiumKungFuCracker]

Exactly it's like the independent/amateur filmmakers put their heart and soul into something, coming up with creative ways to achieve as much as they can.

But are they really entertaining the masses? To partially quote TWC or are they playing to the sheep that think "the whole RR/QT look-at-us-we're-so-cool brand of filmmaking" is actually cool? Let's face it people go to sh*t action movies all the time, it's not like there's really an alternative is there? Most of the multiplexes have the same few Blockbuster movies and Hollywood pretty much controls everything.

Of course Rodriguez isn't going to direct an Oscar-nominated movie, no one expects that. I just think, no I know he can(or could) make a good action movie but this current sh*t just isn't even trying. it's not like it's even studio interference as he's practically been in full control of his movies since Spy Kids. Interestingly from my point of view that's when he stopped making entertaining movies.

Well, I can't argue with that. I'll be seeing Captain Phillips anyways since the praise is just as high as Gravity and I enjoyed the hell out of that. It's actually be a long ass time since I've enjoyed a decent Hollywood film.

[ShaOW!linDude]

There are tons of amateur and indie filmmakers paying homage to their inspirations, just look at our own beloved genre, and they do it for whatever change they found in their couch and a bag of recyclable cans... and they are often more interesting than the ones that do it with studio backing and a million dollar budget... how sad is that?!

Love this quote! That is spot on!

I like RR's style but I was underwhelmed by MACHETE (which I waited to watch when it hit a movie channel on cable, as I will do with MACHETE KILLS). I think he should've forgone both of these ventures and instead we could've had SIN CITY 2 already and this new release could've been SIN CITY 3.

[OpiumKungFuCracker]

So I just got back from seeing Captain Phillips and I must say, FUCK YOU PAUL GREENGRASS!!! Does he always shake the fucking camera in every shot??? I should've watched Machete Kills instead.

[Takuma]

I never liked the whole RR/QT look-at-us-we're-so-cool brand of filmmaking, and I never understood why other genre fans who know their shit, do. But that's fine... it's all opinion.

All opinions, yes, but what did you find bad about Kill Bill for example?

I must admit I really don't get the point of deliberately making a bad movie, which is the way I see these newly made "grind house" films. Making a movie on a low-budget, or even no budget, trying to do the best you can with what you have available is pretty much where these movies originally came from. Whereas having stars that are being paid more than the entire budget of those films seems entirely ridiculous.

Robert Rodriguez started out with something like $7000 and made El Mariachi, delivering a lot for very little. Eventually he got to make Desperado for approximately $7 million delivering a good action movie, costing not a lot by Hollywood standards.

it just seems an absolute travesty spend over $10 million in a time when there are creative young moviemakers who could probably do better with 50 grand, just like Rodriguez back in the day.

I don't quite see the logic here. What should RR do with his 10 million then? Refuse the money? Refuse the stars? Or take the money and direct Man of Steel 2?

Back in the 70's and 80 we used to get a good action movie every week - now we get a good action movie once a year. I'm happy if QT or RR is trying to make something reminiscent of real action and exploitation movies.

That being said, I agree RR isn't an especially good director. But who are the alternatives? Who are the creative young filmmakers are you talking about?

[Guest Markgway]

So I just got back from seeing Captain Phillips and I must say, FUCK YOU PAUL GREENGRASS!!! Does he always shake the fucking camera in every shot??? I should've watched Machete Kills instead.

Yes, which ruined the Bourne sequels.

[blue_skies]

All opinions, yes, but what did you find bad about Kill Bill for example?

I don't quite see the logic here. What should RR do with his 10 million then? Refuse the money? Refuse the stars? Or take the money and direct Man of Steel 2?

Back in the 70's and 80 we used to get a good action movie every week - now we get a good action movie once a year. I'm happy if QT or RR is trying to make something reminiscent of real action and exploitation movies.

That being said, I agree RR isn't an especially good director.

That's my point RR is not even trying to make a good movie.

But who are the alternatives? Who are the creative young filmmakers are you talking about?

well that's part of the problem there are no alternatives. The creative young filmmakers I was referring to, were unknown, undiscovered waiting to get their chance. But seeing as you wanted a name how about Eric Jacobus? For all of its flaws Contour cost what several thousand dollars, delivers tons of quality action that puts Hong Kong to shame and also has lots of serious laugh out loud moments. Pure entertainment. Death Grip also features lots of great fight sequences and like Contour delivers more humour than the average Hollywood comedy. I'm guessing here that cost 50 K and there were some huge production value improvements.

Just look at the pure entertainment value Alpha Stunts have delivered on Drive, Extreme Heist and Broken Path. Drive was probably by far the biggest budget and still a fraction of what Rodriguez gets to use.

So should RR do with $10 million? He should do a hell of a lot more!

Yes, which ruined the Bourne sequels.

Agreed. The Bourne Supremacy especially has lots of really good action and can only imagine how good it would have been without them dammed shaky cams.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

All opinions, yes, but what did you find bad about Kill Bill for example?

Dude, I could fill a whole blog about what I find bad about Kill Bill, and QT movies in general. I've voiced my opinion on this in other threads, but can't remember which.

Im not against pastiche filmmaking as such, I just don't care for his movies, his dialogue, his characters, his writing, or him. I find his work contrived, pretentious, hacky and ultimately empty. And no, im not one of those people who jumped on the QT-hater bandwagon when that became "cool", i've more or less always felt this way.

He can do all the "homages" he wants to, and more power to him. I'd rather watch the original films he "borrows" from, and has been doing just that, before he even started making films.

[Takuma]

That's my point RR is not even trying to make a good movie.

Here I disagree. I think he's doing his best - Machete for example was a good try - but he just isn't that great of a director. Japan's Noboru Iguchi is a similar case - big heart and lots of attempt, but little skill or sense of style.

He can do all the "homages" he wants to, and more power to him. I'd rather watch the original films he "borrows" from, and has been doing just that, before he even started making films.

Not meaning to attack you personally, but I always found the "I'd rather watch the originals" argument odd. QT is borrowing from exploitation and genre movies. Exploitation movies are called exploitation because they are based on exploiting and ripping off ideas introduced or made popular by others. Genre movies are called genre movies because they intentionally model after the genre. Sure, there are some genre films with original ideas, but in general the originals were rarely original to begin with.

Nowadays that we've got all these Greengrasses doing MTV shakycam IT thrillers, I would love to see more filmmakers do something like Kill Bill - no rap music, no CGI blood, no fast cuts.

But you really got me interested... could you please list a few things that you disliked about Kill Bill? Not meaning suggest you are wrong - perhaps I am wrong. Just that I haven't heard many genre film fans dissing Kill Bill. Usually the criticism comes from people who don't like genre films to begin with,

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Are you saying KB didn't have rap music, CGI and fast cuts? I must have been watching another movie, as im pretty sure all of those facets were represented.

I don't see what's odd about rather wanting to see Broken Oath, The Street Fighter, Thriller, Lonewolf and Cub, Companeros or any of the countless other films he is borrowing from here. Is there even one single scene that doesn't have an homage, a copied line or some pilfered iconography from some other movie?

Like I said, im not adverse to pastiche filmmaking per se. But there are more ways to do it than one. I just don't like the way he does it. I don't like his characters, his writing, his dialogue... where everyone talks in his voice. As a writer, you have to give each character their own voice, even though they all do flow from the same place. But when everyone sounds the same, using similar language, pop culture references, expressions etc. You lose distinction, and every character comes off as a uniform mass, speaking with one voice, and one douchy, pretentious voice at that.

Also, am I supposed to be impressed with Yuen Woo Ping's action here? Sure, i'll give the actors sort of a pass, since this is not what they usually do, but the same tired ass wire fu, presented and packaged by QT somehow makes this cool? Not to me.

I find his work to be utterly contrived and wannabe-cool, to the point where it makes me gag.

Ever read any of his scripts? not the shooting scripts, but some of his drafts. He actually puts in brackets what reaction the audience is meant to have by a particular scene or sequence. Like:

"the Bride's face is covered in blood, zoom in on her eyes, and the ironside theme kicks in" (the audience will go crazy at this point)

Eeeeh, no, D-bag... the audience will tell YOU if they think it's cool, by whatever reaction they will have.. all on their own. That's not for you to decide. You just have to make the movie as you wanna make it, and hope they'll like it.

Guess they weren't going so crazy at just about any point during Death Proof. What happened QT? Did your fanboy crystal ball fail you on that one?

Ok, to sum up, I don't like him, I don't like his movies, and that's really all there is to it.

If you wanna read a great piece on QT and his films, go to coolasscinema.com. I share many of the same views as found in those writings, but im not quite as eloquent as the author.

[Takuma]

Are you saying KB didn't have rap music, CGI and fast cuts? I must have been watching another movie, as im pretty sure all of those facets were represented.

There was a CGI bullet. Any other CGI in it? Not that I can recall. Rap music? Certainly not. Fast cuts? Can't recall any. Perhaps we have been watching a different movie indeed.

I don't see what's odd about rather wanting to see Broken Oath, The Street Fighter, Thriller, Lonewolf and Cub, Companeros or any of the countless other films he is borrowing from here. Is there even one single scene that doesn't have an homage, a copied line or some pilfered iconography from some other movie?

Nothing odd. But I've seen them all several times. I've also seen several films they borrowed from. But I'm still feeling like more. That's why I welcome more stuff from QT.

Like I said, im not adverse to pastiche filmmaking per se. But there are more ways to do it than one. I just don't like the way he does it. I don't like his characters, his writing, his dialogue... where everyone talks in his voice. As a writer, you have to give each character their own voice, even though they all do flow from the same place. But when everyone sounds the same, using similar language, pop culture references, expressions etc. You lose distinction, and every character comes off as a uniform mass, speaking with one voice, and one douchy, pretentious voice at that.

Fair enough, though I don't agree about it being a bad thing to do your own thing. How many times did Sonny Chiba play a mean brute? How many times did Wang Yu play a character with one arm? How many times did Norifumi Suzuki ridicule about authorities? This is even true to arthouse film makers. Kim Ki-duk's done a dozen films with a mute protagonist, and Takeshi Kitano plays essentially the same role in all of his yakuza films.

Also, am I supposed to be impressed with Yuen Woo Ping's action here? Sure, i'll give the actors sort of a pass, since this is not what they usually do, but the same tired ass wire fu, presented and packaged by QT somehow makes this cool? Not to me.

Sure, they are not the greatest action scenes ever made, but you'd need to bash a whole load of old genre films as well on that basis.

Ever read any of his scripts? not the shooting scripts, but some of his drafts. He actually puts in brackets what reaction the audience is meant to have by a particular scene or sequence. Like:

"the Bride's face is covered in blood, zoom in on her eyes, and the ironside theme kicks in" (the audience will go crazy at this point)

Eeeeh, no, D-bag... the audience will tell YOU if they think it's cool, by whatever reaction they will have.. all on their own. That's not for you to decide. You just have to make the movie as you wanna make it, and hope they'll like it.

No, I didn't read them, but that sounds perfectly logical. You can't just make a completely random film without ever thinking if the audience is gonna like it or not. You have to try to figure out what the audience wants and what are the key scenes in the film so that you can pace it correctly.

Guess they weren't going so crazy at just about any point during Death Proof. What happened QT? Did your fanboy crystal ball fail you on that one?

I always thought it was mainly mainstream who didn't like Death Proof. I loved it and know a lot of genre film fans who consider it one of Tarantino's better films, especially compared to everything that he's made after it.

Ok, to sum up, I don't like him, I don't like his movies

I thought so too

Anyway, thanks for the reply. Opinion much appreciated.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

There was a CGI bullet. Any other CGI in it? Not that I can recall. Rap music? Certainly not. Fast cuts? Can't recall any. Perhaps we have been watching a different movie indeed.

Nothing odd. But I've seen them all several times. I've also seen several films they borrowed from. But I'm still feeling like more. That's why I welcome more stuff from QT.

Fair enough, though I don't agree about it being a bad thing to do your own thing. How many times did Sonny Chiba play a mean brute? How many times did Wang Yu play a character with one arm? How many times did Norifumi Suzuki ridicule about authorities? This is even true to arthouse film makers. Kim Ki-duk's done a dozen films with a mute protagonist, and Takeshi Kitano plays essentially the same role in all of his yakuza films.

Sure, they are not the greatest action scenes ever made, but you'd need to bash a whole load of old genre films as well on that basis.

No, I didn't read them, but that sounds perfectly logical. You can't just make a completely random film without ever thinking if the audience is gonna like it or not. You have to try to figure out what the audience wants and what are the key scenes in the film so that you can pace it correctly.

I always thought it was mainly mainstream who didn't like Death Proof. I loved it and know a lot of genre film fans who consider it one of Tarantino's better films, especially compared to everything that he's made after it.

I thought so too

Anyway, thanks for the reply. Opinion much appreciated.

Well, GoGo's flying spikeball of death was most certainly CGI, and I seem to remember a couple of other instances as well, but no, they are not CGI heavy films by any means. Rza did the ambient score, in while not rap, it is at least hip hop influenced, and im pretty sure there was at least one Wu Tang track in there somewhere, but I could be wrong. And fast cuts, you might wanna check out some of those action scenes again

I am still discovering new old films, and im sure that every movie ever made borrows from something else, have no problem with that. I just don't care for QT and I don't need him guiding me through the jungle of genre films, I can do that myself. Like for instance by way of such experts as yourself who turned me on to resurrection of golden wolf

m not talking about character as such, im talking about giving each character their own voice, as a writer/director. But this guy is so in love with himself and his own writing, that he somehow forgets that quintessential aspect of screen writing

I will, and I frequently do.

Obviously, gauging inteded audience reactions is important. But it was he way he wrote it, not like he was hoping they would go crazy, but that he was DEAD CERTAIN that they would. That just annoyed me, and speaks to my point of his work being contrived.

I remember a lot of his fan following bemoaning this flick.

I don't know how this fucking multi quoting thing works!!!!

[SamSeed]

Kill Bill aside, ultimately I enjoyed Machete Kills because it was unpretentious as to what it was, a fun action film. The fight scenes were well filmed (i.e. unlike Paul Greengrass, you can actually see what the hell is going on and who is hitting who) and it was nice to go to the cinema and just have fun.