Thailand: The New King of Action or Pretender to the Throne?

[One Armed Boxer]

Around about this exact same time ten years ago, the martial arts movie scene was rampant with talk of a new movie which had arrived fresh on the screens out of nowhere. The first few years of the new millennium were a depressing time for fans who liked their action authentic and hard hitting, with nothing notable coming out of Hong Kong, and to the best of most people’s knowledge there was no other country to turn to. Then, ‘Ong Bak’ arrived with a resounding thud.

The movie even broke through into the mainstream, with people who’d never seen a kung-fu flick in their life excitedly describing to their friends and co-workers about the guy who can knee people through the floor, can split a motorcycle helmet in two with his leg on fire, and can run on top of people’s heads. The man of course was Tony Jaa, and in 2003 one thing seemed certain, Thailand was the new home of hard hitting action cinema.

It wasn’t just the fans that thought this, stalwarts of the industry also seemed to think so, with people like director Raimund Huber (‘Bangkok Adrenaline’, ‘Kill ‘Em All’), Patrick Tang (‘Dragonwolf’, ‘Raging Phoenix’), Jon Foo (‘Bangkok Revenge’, ‘Tom Yum Goong’), Marrese Crump (‘Tom Yum Goong 2’, ‘Formless’), and Tim Man (‘Ong Bak 2’, ‘Ninja 2: Shadow of a Tear’) all heading to the Land of Smiles to catch their break in what was clearly about to be an industry boom.

Now of course, 2003 was a full decade ago, and the question remains – is Thailand the new home of action cinema? For many, despite such a huge amount of time passing, the jury is still out. Despite the impact of ‘Ong Bak’, the Thai movie industry could arguably be said to have failed to build upon the warm welcome the world gave it. While many reviews noted the flimsiness of the story, the action more than made up for it, and even for the most hardened critics, in this case that actually seemed to be enough to recommend giving it a watch.

Things didn’t quite go according to plan though. Less than a year later in 2004, Panna Ritikrai, the choreographer of ‘Ong Bak’ unleashed his own movie into the market. Rittikrai had been directing shoestring budget action movies for close to twenty years by the time ‘Ong Bak’ came out, and what his work lacks in budget, it more than makes up for with his stunt teams (in some cases) literally death defying stunts. So for all intents and purposes, a movie directed by him to show off his team in action on a decent budget should have been the cause for excitement, but instead it was met with quite the opposite reaction.

While today the 2004 version of ‘Born to Fight’, a loose remake of Rittikrai’s debut movie of the same name, is appreciated for the ton of death defying fun that it is, at the time of its release fans reaction was generally one of hostility, as people lambasted the movies star Dan Chupong as a lame Tony Jaa rip-off. While the final 45 minutes of ‘Born to Fight’ are essentially one insane stunt after another, sprinkled with some wince inducing fight scenes, it seemed so soon after ‘Ong Bak’ people just weren’t ready to accept anything coming out of Thailand that didn’t have Jaa’s name on it.

Thankfully people didn’t have to wait long for their next Jaa fix, as the following year Jaa made his second headlining feature, the Sydney based ‘Tom Yum Goong’. While there was no doubt the movie ramped things up a notch in terms of action design from its predecessor, this time people weren’t so forgiving on the paper thin story. It was fair to say an improvement was to be expected in the story as well as the action, however ‘Tom Yum Goong’ saw things taking a step backwards, with Jaa chasing his stolen elephant to Australia, and barely having more than a single line for the whole run-time – “Where’s my elephant!?” – which he would roar over and over again at increasingly regular intervals.

Still, people were satisfied, although rumblings were already underway that if Thailand didn’t improve the plot of its action movies, it risked losing peoples interest. Meanwhile Dan Chupong was put in the awkward situation again of having a movie released on the coat tails of Jaa’s most recent work, with the 2006 effort ‘Dynamite Warrior’, anther fun fantasy fused effort that had Chupong playing a warrior who uses rockets as weapons, sometimes even surfing on them. While ‘Dynamite Warrior’ had a fun story, a nice gimmick with the rockets, and a healthy dose of hard hitting action, again it didn’t really connect with people in the same way that Jaa did.

While Chupong may have thought he was being hard done by, even he would admit that compared to the star of the 2007 movie, ‘Brave’, he was doing pretty well. ‘Brave’ attempted to launch another Thai stunt man & martial artist, Mike B, onto an international audience, however the movie encountered financial problems before it was even finished. In the end Malaysia helped to co-fund it, with the inclusion of a fat Malaysian comedian to play a comedy relief sidekick, and the movie finally wrapped its painful production. For most, the first five minutes of ‘Brave’ were enough, as Mike B plays an excruciatingly irritating delivery boy character that makes Dean Shek look like a comic genius.

Things didn’t go much better for Mike B’s next movie, ‘Dead End’, which also ran into financial trouble and in the end was completely scrapped midway though filming. Eventually the producers managed to get more funds together, and the footage that had already been filmed for ‘Dead End’ was reworked into a completely new movie called ‘The Sanctuary’, which eventually got released in 2009. Both ‘Brave’ and ‘The Sanctuary’ got universally lambasted by action fans, and for the first time saw people began to criticize Thai movies not just for the lame stories and script, but for the action itself.

Fans began to notice certain trends in the Thai action movie scene - stuff like the opponent just waiting to be hit while the good guy delivers his move, the lack of lengthy exchanges in the fight scenes, and the repetitiveness of watching people get elbowed and kneed over and over again. It seemed like there was trouble in paradise, and it wasn’t only here, it had also been reported that the period double sword movie that Jaa had been working on with the director of ‘Ong Bak’ & ‘Tom Yum Goong’ had been cancelled, because they’d had a falling out. Instead, it was announced that Jaa would be directing a sequel to ‘Ong Bak’ himself, which will also be a period movie, and would change the way we see Thai action cinema.

Jaa set to work building the ridiculously expensive set for the sequel, as well as writing the script, being the main star, and directing the whole thing. It was a huge task for a man who had grew up in the countryside, and unlike Hong Kong that has a rich history of action film making with a significant support network, Jaa admirably set out to do it all by himself. Perhaps understandably, it all got too much for him, both the budget and the timeframe for finishing the movie went over, and in the middle of it all he mysteriously walked off set and disappeared for a couple of weeks. One thing was clear, something had gone every wrong with the guy who was perceived to be the answer to every action fans prayers. When he finally did reappear, he turned up on a Thai TV talk show as a guest and broke down in tears, before announcing that Panna Rittikrai would be coming on board to help him finish the movie, and that, surprisingly, it will now be split into two parts.

‘Ong Bak 2’ does indeed bear the marks of a rather messy production, and like ‘Born to Fight’, at the time of its release it was received pretty negatively by both critics and action fans alike. However also like ‘Born to Fight’, since its release ‘Ong Bak 2’ has come to be appreciated as an action movie in the coming years. Whether Jaa did it gracefully or not isn’t really the important question, as he definitely didn’t, however, did he create a decent story and script? Yes. Did he deliver fight action that was new and innovative? Hell yes. & did he look like he could be the answer to every action fans prayers? A resounding yes. In 2008, after a shaky couple of years, it looked like Thailand was back on the map as the place to be for action.

2008 was also rounded off with the release of the movie ‘Chocolate’, which launched the star of Jija Yanin, who was touted as the female answer to Tony Jaa. While at the time of the movies release such a comparison might not have actually been much of a compliment, people got the idea. The story behind Yanin was that she auditioned for a part in ‘Born to Fight’ but didn’t get it, however director Rittikrai saw something in her, and as she was only 14 at the time, he set about training her for the next four years to groom her as the worlds next leading female action star.

In a double whammy of twice in one year, ‘Chocolate’ also had a unique and original storyline, as Yanin played an autistic girl who’s able to copy the actions of anyone she sees (cue scenes of her watching the movies of Bruce Lee, &….yes…Tony Jaa), and decided to take it upon herself to collect the debts owed to her sick mother. While some people pointed out that her hits seemed to lack power and the action was a little slow, by the time the movie gets to its finale it seemed that Yanin had hit her stride, and we’re treated to an awesome twenty minute spectacle of fighting and stunts.

Neither Jaa nor Yanin could seem to maintain any form of consistency though, as they both hit the screens again the following year in 2009 with the double disappointments of ‘Ong Bak 3’ & ‘Raging Phoenix’. In ‘Ong Bak 3’ Jaa’s heart simply doesn’t seem to be in it, and knowing it was only really being made to recoup the costs that were lost on ‘Ong Bak 2’, it probably wasn’t. The only upside of it was watching Dan Chupong very nearly steal the show from him as the rampaging Crow Ghost, one of action cinemas more unique characters. Likewise, ‘Raging Phoenix’ seemed to set Thailand’s reputation for awful plots right back to square one, with a ridiculous tale of girls tears being harvested for perfume, and a failed attempt at mixing dance with muay thai for the fight scenes, which for most people just didn’t work.

2009 was topped off with a movie which was even worse than both ‘Ong Bak 3’ and ‘Raging Phoenix’, the Raimund Huber directed ‘Bangkok Adrenaline’, about four backpackers in Thailand who get caught up in some gangster related shenanigans. While the guys playing the backpackers do have some awesome moves, particularly Brit Daniel O’Neill, the acting by just about everyone is utterly woeful. By this point it’d been six years since ‘Ong Bak’, and it seemed that nobody in Thailand’s movie industry was paying attention to people’s pleas to try and improve the plot and scripts of these action extravaganzas, indeed if anything things seemed to be headed in the wrong direction.

In the time since 2009 things have mostly been more of the same – Panna Rittikrai unleashed another self directed movie in 2010 called ‘Bangkok Knockout’ (awesome action, terrible everything else), in 2011 Jija Yanin starred in a comedy called ‘This Girl is Badass’ (terrible everything) & co-starred in a Korean co-production called ‘The Kick’ (in which she was completely wasted), & last year saw Raimund Huber release another unwatchable mess called ‘Kill ‘Em All’.

Which brings us to the present day, that has Thailand hoping all can be forgiven with the release of Tony Jaa’s first starring movie in 4 years, ‘Tom Yum Goong 2’. With a trailer now online, there are still a lot of questions surrounding the movie. While it was originally being marketed as a Tony Jaa & Jija Yanin team-up, it seems that since Yanin became pregnant in the middle of filming, causing the movie to be delayed until she gave birth, it now looks to be more centrally focused just on Jaa himself. ‘TYG2’, as it’s being abbreviated to, has a lot of talent behind it – Rittikrai is on board as choreographer, Dan Chupong is playing a character, Patrick Tang & Marrese Crump are both on board, and it’s also going to be the countries first 3D action movie.

Will ‘TYG2’ be able to finally answer the decade long question of if Thailand can be the new king of action cinema? It gets released on home soil in December, so we’ll have to wait until then to find out.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

To answer the question posed by the artricle.... no, I think the Thai film industry had their chance, and they dropped the ball. If you put zero effort into the story or the characters, then all you have is an action showreel, and people get tired of that pretty quick.

[blue_skies]

That's a good find OAB. While I think TWC is correct that Thailand dropped the ball, I don't necessarily agree it's just because of the story/character elements. I think had they continued with tons of high-quality action, crazy stunts and great fights, you can get away with a very slim story and underdeveloped characters.

Hong Kong used to have so many kung fu, martial arts and action movies being released on a yearly basis. That there was competition trying to push the envelope with different stars and choreographers working almost continuously, from one movie to the next. Even the best action stars, choreographers and directors had there missteps but there were always other movies in the same year that delivered… While also many didn't .Thailand clearly is more interested in comedy, drama and whatever else they make as they clearly don't have an "industry" in the same sense that Hong Kong had back in the day.

Hong Kong still has an industry even though it's kind of really China nowand it remains to be seen if they can actually make a balls to the wall action flick. As the years roll by the once overflowing with talent, in front and behind the camera, now is dwindling away. With no up-and-coming stars, up-and-coming choreographers and people who know how to stage and film great action, HK is going to die a slow death once the remaining generation retire.

While Thailand isn't quite what we hoped for, hopefully will chip in with the odd martial arts movie. I think small independent movies are the future…

[DiP]

I don't keep up with Thai Cinema but it seems that the industry is going through a huge transition the same way Hong Kong went through in the mid 1970s and onwards. Thai movie producers once used to invest alot of money on action movies due to interests from the outside world but when they recently are starting to see bigger opportunities to achieve breakthrough in other ways, this is what happens. They move on creating and being more open to other genres and stops the productivity of quality action movies. And speaking of specific places that produces the best action movies, there's no such thing anymore because action movies have become global and each action movie industry have their own representatives and creators. It's all about certain crews than all action talents of a region uniting together.

Blues_Skies, contrary to what you say about HK/China they have LOTS of upcoming and relatively new action talents that just haven't been given the right offers and promotion to succeed as a whole, and needs more time making movies and gaining experiences before they can level up to major roles/partnerships. As far as upcoming action talents in China, there's the likes of Xing Yu, Fan Siu Wong, Dennis To, John Zhang Jin (The Grandmaster, currently shooting the Wong Fei Hung remake) and Donnie Yen stuntman/action choreographer/actor Yu Kang (Shibumi in Dragon Tiger Gate, Wu Xia, soon to be seen in the Iceman movies). There's also many veteran HK action choreographers (Yuen Tak, Tung Wai, Dion Lam, Jack Wong Wai Leung, Bruce Law, Chin Kar Lok, Wong Wai-Fai, Hung Yan Yan, Tony Leung Siu Hung... way too many valuable to mention) still active to this day, with their sub-co-ordinators (new talents) that will are set to take over HK action movies in the future. So no, Hong Kong/China isn't is going to die a slow death once the remaining generation retire.

[blue_skies]

Blues_Skies, contrary to what you say about HK/China they have LOTS of upcoming and relatively new action talents that just haven't been given the right offers and promotion to succeed as a whole, and needs more time making movies and gaining experiences before they can level up to major roles/partnerships. As far as upcoming action talents in China, there's the likes of Xing Yu, Fan Siu Wong, Dennis To, John Zhang Jin (The Grandmaster, currently shooting the Wong Fei Hung remake) and Donnie Yen stuntman/action choreographer/actor Yu Kang (Shibumi in Dragon Tiger Gate, Wu Xia, soon to be seen in the Iceman movies). There's also many veteran HK action choreographers (Yuen Tak, Tung Wai, Dion Lam, Jack Wong Wai Leung, Bruce Law, Chin Kar Lok, Wong Wai-Fai, Hung Yan Yan, Tony Leung Siu Hung... way too many valuable to mention) still active to this day, with their sub-co-ordinators (new talents) that will are set to take over HK action movies in the future. So no, Hong Kong/China isn't is going to die a slow death once the remaining generation retire.

As far as up and coming stars there is little to suggest they will be the next generation stars. I think it's far more likely that (insert current/future popstars name) is going to get leading roles in action movies. Fan Siu Wong had a leading role 20 years ago, he was up-and-coming then.

I know there's still lots of veteran choreographers the point is that pool of talent is dwindling and likewise their opportunities and more so for those lower down the chain to stand out

[One Armed Boxer]

I don't necessarily agree it's just because of the story/character elements. I think had they continued with tons of high-quality action, crazy stunts and great fights, you can get away with a very slim story and underdeveloped characters.

I don't know, for me 'Bangkok Knockout' is essentially exactly what you're describing - it contained probably the best and most intricate choreography not just to come out of Thailand, but out of anywhere, for a long time. However everything else was painful - the story, the acting, the characters, the list goes on.

When I first picked it up on DVD I watched it 3 times in a week just for the action, however I think it's pretty telling that since that I've felt absolutely zero inclination to watch it again, and I never have. I realized that as TWC pointed out, it's because it really only holds the value of being a showreel, and nothing more, and as a movie with re-watch value it fails on every level.

With HK movies of the past, even if there wasn't that much action in them, at least the stars (a word I find hard to use for many of Thailand's performers) had screen presence and charisma, with half decent stories, so that watching them as movies is still enjoyable. Stuff like 'Heart of the Dragon' immediately springs to mind.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Exactly, HK movies usually has more going for them than just the action.

I love how many genre fans more or less wrote off HK when the "Thai boom" happened with Ong Bak and the likes. Praising Thai action like the second coming, while often slagging off whatever HK had to offer in that same period. Like it had to be one or the other. Though once they realized that their new Thai emperor had no close and was riding a one-trick pony, their fanboy fervour subsided, and they quickly changed their tune again.

True, it felt like a breath of fresh air, but it was nothing more than a short gasp, while HK had consistently (aside from the odd dry spell here and there) been making solid action films for half a century.

[blue_skies]

I don't know, for me 'Bangkok Knockout' is essentially exactly what you're describing - it contained probably the best and most intricate choreography not just to come out of Thailand, but out of anywhere, for a long time. However everything else was painful - the story, the acting, the characters, the list goes on.

When I first picked it up on DVD I watched it 3 times in a week just for the action, however I think it's pretty telling that since that I've felt absolutely zero inclination to watch it again, and I never have. I realized that as TWC pointed out, it's because it really only holds the value of being a showreel, and nothing more, and as a movie with re-watch value it fails on every level.

With HK movies of the past, even if there wasn't that much action in them, at least the stars (a word I find hard to use for many of Thailand's performers) had screen presence and charisma, with half decent stories, so that watching them as movies is still enjoyable. Stuff like 'Heart of the Dragon' immediately springs to mind.

Now for me Bangkok Knockout is where I would agree that it didn't even have enough story or character elements to carry it as a movie. I'm sure there was some enjoyable action in it but on the whole I didn't even enjoy it from that perspective. I immediately followed it up with Shaolin Rescuers, I think it was, and had a real blast.

maybe I'm just underrating the stories and characters in a lot of kung fu/martial arts movies that I love? But they are very often very simple and do just enough to keep the plot moving between action sequences and just enough to keep you interested when there's no action going on.

while HK had consistently (aside from the odd dry spell here and there) been making solid action films for half a century.

I know lots will disagree but HK has been a pretty long dry spell with not a lot really show for it. A few good MA films here and there is all

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Sure, since the big slump of the mid to late 90's, things were never really the same again. But I can still find 5 to 10 films from each year since then, that I like. Which is way more than I can say for Thailand, Hollywood or anywhere else.

And notice I said ACTION, which encompasses crime, cop, triad, gunplay etc. not just MA film, which you seem to be focusing on.

Im not exactly happy about the state of the HK film business as it is, but it is the only place on earth, that keeps making movies that gets me excited, however few in numbers it has become.

[DiP]

As far as up and coming stars there is little to suggest they will be the next generation stars. I think it's far more likely that (insert current/future popstars name) is going to get leading roles in action movies. Fan Siu Wong had a leading role 20 years ago, he was up-and-coming then.

I know there's still lots of veteran choreographers the point is that pool of talent is dwindling and likewise their opportunities and more so for those lower down the chain to stand out

Actually, they are getting more opportunities to doing more action movies so there's alot of suggestion that they will carry on Chinese action movies in the future. Since the ressuraction of real martial artists/action performers being employed in recent times, there's been little of these pop stars as leads in action movies so you're late to say such thing. Xing Yu is coming out with his first lead role in Wrath of Vajra this month, Dennis To has had a few chances of being the lead in movies like Legend is Born: Ip Man and Fan Siu Wong (regardless of coming up in the early 1990s) has Payback and The Monkey King coming out. It's just a matter of getting the right opportunities and promotion so time will tell if some of these talents will stand out as stars in their own rights. It's not easy to become an action star today because the standards constantly keeps changing with times.

China's action talent pool is 10 times the size of that of Hong Kong so I don't know where you get the idea of the overall talent pool decreasing and opportunities being lowered. It's the opposite, where more chances and space are given to actors and directors since the Chinese film market is bigger. Hong Kong's talent pool has been relocating to China since 15 years ago getting in touch with young talents and teaching them all the knowledge of action film-making. The HK influence has played an important role for Mainland talents who are starting to branch out on their own as action performers and action choreographers.

[blue_skies]

Actually, they are getting more opportunities to doing more action movies so there's alot of suggestion that they will carry on Chinese action movies in the future. Since the ressuraction of real martial artists/action performers being employed in recent times, there's been little of these pop stars as leads in action movies so you're late to say such thing. Xing Yu is coming out with his first lead role in Wrath of Vajra this month, Dennis To has had a few chances of being the lead in movies like Legend is Born: Ip Man and Fan Siu Wong (regardless of coming up in the early 1990s) has Payback and The Monkey King coming out. It's just a matter of getting the right opportunities and promotion so time will tell if some of these talents will stand out as stars in their own rights. It's not easy to become an action star today because the standards constantly keeps changing with times.

China's action talent pool is 10th the size of that of Hong Kong so I don't know where you get the idea of the overall talent pool decreasing and opportunities being lowered. It's the opposite, where more chances and space are given to actors and directors since the Chinese film market is bigger. Hong Kong's talent pool has been relocating to China since 15 years ago getting in touch with young talents and teaching them all the knowledge of action film-making. The HK influence has played an important role for Mainland talents who are starting to branch out on their own as action performers and action choreographers.

I hope you are right.

[DrNgor]

There's not a whole lot I can say that hasn't been said. I came in late to the Thai action scene (about 2007) and my first movie was Born to Fight. The stuntwork and moves were great, but as another user said, there were no exchanges and too much punching bag choreography. Six years, four Tony Jaa films and one Jeeja Yanin movie later, I'm still not all that enamored with the Thai martial arts genre. Don't get me wrong, the performers and the stunts are almost magical in their execution. Unfortunately, the movies lacked personality, as did the performers most of the time. The punching bag choreography got better in the Ong Bak sequels, but the lack of dialogue and characterization never raised the films above the level of the fight scene compilations I used to make when I had two VCRs.

A few years ago, a reviewer at another message board bashed FEARLESS for being a bunch of wire-fu crap that had no place in this world now that Tony Jaa was making movies. Yes, FEARLESS had some wire assistance. NO, it was not the essence of the action. That movie had exchanges, complex exchanges of hits, blocks, and kicks, not to mention a plot, actual acting, dialogue, and character development. I haven't seen a Thai martial arts film (admittedly, my experience is limited) that has had all of that.

[One Armed Boxer]

Since the ressuraction of real martial artists/action performers being employed in recent times, there's been little of these pop stars as leads in action movies so you're late to say such thing. Xing Yu is coming out with his first lead role in Wrath of Vajra this month, Dennis To has had a few chances of being the lead in movies like Legend is Born: Ip Man and Fan Siu Wong (regardless of coming up in the early 1990s) has Payback and The Monkey King coming out.

This may be true, however I also worry about Hong Kong becoming similar to Thailand in the way that I'll be watching these movies for the action, and not the star.

When I watched a Jackie Chan or Sammo Hung movie for the first time, I was watchng them as much for the fact that I enjoyed seeing Jackie & Sammo onscreen as well as for the action they'd perform, which I knew was a given.

While I'll also be watching Xing Yu & Dennis To's movies, can I say I'm watching them because it's Xing Yu & Dennis To? The answer is a definite no, the screen presence and charisma that the old school stars brought to the screen is definitely lacking in the new generations talent pool, and the whole point of the article is implying that action alone is not enough.

If the 'Wrath of Vajra' turns out to be another nationalistic pro-China movie with some decent fights thrown in, I'll definitely give it a watch, probably even enjoy it, but that'll be all. It won't go in the DVD player over and over again like my Shaw Brothers, Golden Harvest, and countless other HK movies of the golden era do.

China's action talent pool is 10th the size of that of Hong Kong so I don't know where you get the idea of the overall talent pool decreasing and opportunities being lowered.

DIP I presume you mean that China's talent pool is 10 times the size of Hong Kong's, not a 10th of it's size?

Sure, since the big slump of the mid to late 90's, things were never really the same again. But I can still find 5 to 10 films from each year since then, that I like. Which is way more than I can say for Thailand, Hollywood or anywhere else.

Likewise, I think what blue_skies is alluding to is the physical intensity that HK movies of old used to bring, and it's fair to say that purely in that regard Thailand IS matching the standard of HK's golden era. I'm sure if you put in a youtube search for Hong Kong stunt or fall compilations, virtually all the clips that it would pull would be from the 80's or early 90's, with I doubt anything at all being included from post-2000.

[DiP]

This may be true, however I also worry about Hong Kong becoming similar to Thailand in the way that I'll be watching these movies for the action, and not the star.

When I watched a Jackie Chan or Sammo Hung movie for the first time, I was watchng them as much for the fact that I enjoyed seeing Jackie & Sammo onscreen as well as for the action they'd perform, which I knew was a given.

While I'll also be watching Xing Yu & Dennis To's movies, can I say I'm watching them because it's Xing Yu & Dennis To? The answer is a definite no, the screen presence and charisma that the old school stars brought to the screen is definitely lacking in the new generations talent pool, and the whole point of the article is implying that action alone is not enough.

If the 'Wrath of Vajra' turns out to be another nationalistic pro-China movie with some decent fights thrown in, I'll definitely give it a watch, probably even enjoy it, but that'll be all. It won't go in the DVD player over and over again like my Shaw Brothers, Golden Harvest, and countless other HK movies of the golden era do.

Can't argue against that. The younger talents in China still need more time to be groomed. Even some talents that have been active before (the 1970s generation) is in need of right projects to succeed and stand out. However, I can also say this about the early works of Sammo, Jackie, Yuen Biao before they created their own screen personas and movies that went on to be celebrated for years to come. Everyone in show biz is dependent on time and persistence in order to advance and improve.

DIP I presume you mean that China's talent pool is 10 times the size of Hong Kong's, not a 10th of it's size?

Yeah, a typo. Edited.

[One Armed Boxer]

Even some talents that have been active before (the 1970s generation) is in need of right projects to succeed and stand out. However, I can also say this about the early works of Sammo, Jackie, Yuen Biao before they created their own screen personas and movies that went on to be celebrated for years to come. Everyone in show biz is dependent on time and persistence in order to advance and improve.

That's a very valid point, particularly in relation to thinking back to Chan's collaborations with Lo Wei. Hopefully the Thai stars will also emerge from the rut the industry seems to be in with its plot & scripts, 'Ong Bak 2' clearly showed Jaa has a story to tell, and what's more is that it was an original and unique story to boot. It's a shame the pressure got to him, and hopefully it's a blessing in disguise that nobody is really paying any attention to what's going to be his second full directorial effort, 'A Man Will Rise'. Even if the wild west setting has a feeling of been there & done that, I still hope it'll bring something fresh to the table now that the pressure is off him somewhat.

Likewise with Dan Chupong, this guy needs another movie with him front and centre. He has screen presence and looks like he's really enjoying himself when he's onscreen, even if what he's enjoying is furiously beating someones head against a steel table, he has a real energy and likability about him.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Overall, I think I kinda like Chupong better than Jaa. Honestly, I think in terms of action, they are about equal in skill level. Acting-wise it's hard to judge, since none of them have had that much chance to show any kind of dramatic range (and no, screaming your head off is not dramatic range). But in terms of looks, screen presence etc. I think I favor Chupong. If I was a producer, I would find him more marketable, but of course Jaa was chosen for a reason, and he's good too.

[Drunken Monk]

I think one of the problems with Thai martial arts cinema is that there is no evolution. The entire genre seems to rely far more on mimicry than it does bettering itself. I hoped that would change when "Ong Bak 2" seemed to up its game but it's fallen back into "I've seen all this before territory."

I find their stunt work to be second to none but their choreography style doesn't have any flexibility. Hong Kong cinema had a number of talented people all trying to bring their own ideas to choreography and that's how the genre continued to get better and better.

With Malaysia and Indonesia throwing their hats into the ring, I don't see Thai action cinema lasting much longer. It looks though it'll fall into the world of direct-to-DVD unless they pull their collective finger out and develop as an industry.

[DrNgor]

I think one of the problems with Thai martial arts cinema is that there is no evolution. The entire genre seems to rely far more on mimicry than it does bettering itself. I hoped that would change when "Ong Bak 2" seemed to up its game but it's fallen back into "I've seen all this before territory."

I find their stunt work to be second to none but their choreography style doesn't have any flexibility. Hong Kong cinema had a number of talented people all trying to bring their own ideas to choreography and that's how the genre continued to get better and better.

With Malaysia and Indonesia throwing their hats into the ring, I don't see Thai action cinema lasting much longer. It looks though it'll fall into the world of direct-to-DVD unless they pull their collective finger out and develop as an industry.

This is true. Sammo's modern choreography, Jackie's object fu, Ching Siu-Tung's wire-fu swordplay, Yuen Woo-Ping's wire-fu...each had it's own unique stamp. Then again, HK cinema has dozens of different styles, weapons, and literary works contributing to their creativity, even if it hasn't been the same recently. How many martial arts styles besides Muay Thai are native to Thailand?

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Muay Boran and some offshoot styles, but it doesn't matter how many they have, since they persist on showing the same five moves in every damn movie. Seriously, if I see that running-up-your-opponet-skull-smasher-elbow move in slo mo one more time, Im gonns cry!

How many different interpretations of Wing Chun has Sammo brought to the screen? three, four..... and that is ONE style, and the least flashy, no less.

Also, the Thai's stuntwork is only second to none in the sense that they have the cheapest stuntmen, who will do any and everything. But there's something called action ingenuity i.e. devising action set pieces and exciting imaginative stunts, Not just throwing yourself off a mountain into a croc pit of fire. Yes, it's crazy that you can find anyone careless enough to do it, but can they put together something like the bike chase sequence from Project A or the end fight of Dragons Forever with their countless gags, gimmicks, attention to detail etc.?

The Thais are very gifted action filmmakers, they have the tools, but you gotta know how to use those tools, and use them in a fresh and exciting way every time. Like you said, DM... it has to evolve.

[D1 Ma]

I think Thailand proved once again that it's not about martial artists or stuntmen. It's about fight choreographers and action directors. Interesting choreo, innovative action sequences nicely shot - that's what sells an action/MA film. Good story helps, too, but it's not THAT important. I would go even as far as to say that a good martial artist is not essential for a good MA or action flick. We all saw tons of examples of that

In general though, I think Thailand missed it's chance. They will produce a decent action flick once in a while, but it will never become "the second HK" . ..and now, when Tony Jaa is getting work in the West, Jeeja became a mom, Mike B proved that he can't carry a movie, who's gonna attract viewers?

[VenomsFan]

Good point D1 Ma. That's exactly where Indonesia (The Raid et. al) are picking up from.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

What about that Simon Kook guy, or whatever his name was...? I seem to remember him being touted as the new boy on the block at some point.

I guess there's plenty of raw talent, but not enough projects.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Abit harsh, to criticize Thai action for being run of the mill action with no improvement. When that's Donnie Yen's whole niche.

Who said it was run of the mill?

And Donnie's niche? He has been through shapes, kickboxing style, weapons work, wire fu, wing chun, MMA and god knows what else. You say there is no improvement or indeed variety there?

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Ok, you just deleted 90% of your post, so...... nevermind.

[DrNgor]

I'll have to see if there are any more Thai movies out to rent over here (São Paulo) so I can contribute a little bit more intelligently to this topic.