Shinobi no Mono DVD Set 2 RIP?

[Killer Meteor]

No, he's blaming Merlin for affecting the market in which these films can be legitimatly sold.

Merlin released boots of other titles before Animego was able to release them. So wonder sales are even more down.

[waywardsage]

Technically @John is right. I can't tell you how many times I have surfed these boards and people talk about how the bought a copy of a movie via a grey market dealer like Merlin and say they'll "think about" picking up the licensed R1 DVD/Blu when a legal company picks it up in the USA.

Now do I hate people like Merlin? No, not really. I realize that our interest is extremely nitche. Without his releasing of many of these films, they wouldn't exist for us to watch in the West. But it doesn't hide the fact that it is illegal. Unless he is licensing these products from Japan. I'm just shocked a studio in Japan hasn't closed him down by now.

If your going to defend Merlin, that's fine. He's getting product out there for us to watch that we may never get a legit release in the USA. But don't act like it doesn't affect the sales of the licensed distributors in the USA. I've heard of multiple people on these boards say they wouldn't buy Animeigo's Sleepy Eyes of Death series because they bought Merlins copies a while back. That technically hurts Animeigo's sales wether you want to admit it or not.

What pisses me off more is that Animeigo basically doesn't advertise practically at all. They have NO social media presence! They communicate with their fans very, very little. Maybe that's also a part of why their sales are down too.

[daisho2004]

@waywardsage: Let me clear the air here... Yes I support the Fansubbers, and as for Merlin he subtitled The Sleepy Eyes of Death series a few years ago way after AnimEigo said they lost the right to this series and never even said they had any intentions of re-releasing this series again.. I had bought them on VHS that's how long ago they were out. And I also bought them from AnimEigo when they re-released them on DVD, even though I already had them from Merlin. Merlin did the entire 12 volumes plus the 2 movies that were made after Raizo's Death, that AnimEigo isn't going to release. So for you to say Merlin is hurting there sales isn't true. And your right this is a genre that many of us like and want to own ,and I have always said I will support any legit company that puts out these movies. But if they stop doing it then I will support the fansubbers. And Yes it is a business, its the same thing when People go to Chinatown in NYC and buy the knock-off Coach/Gucci bags. I've been on this site for many many years longer than a lot of people here. Long before we had and titles next to our names, and I've seen Guys bash Merlin & CK to many times to count. But if you want to wait for criterion to release the same movie over & over again go ahead. Without Merlin or CK this genre would be dead to us all and that is a True Fact!

And one other thing Merlin isn't going to waste his time subtitling a movie that is getting a legit release here in the US. Merlin sometimes does release these movies way before any US company even has the slightest interest in picking up these titles.

But again its all about choices here, you can support him or not! But don't Bash the Guy because some of us die hard fans want to see these great classic movies. All that is being done here is messing up the thread post that was started.

On a final note maybe these companies should take a look at what the fansubbers are putting out so then they can relate to us the consumers. And that this genre isn't Dead at all, that we want to see these great movies. But again look at Media Blasters how they destroyed the TV series of LW&C the way they released that series and stopped after the 1st. season, that is a great series one of the best I've ever seen. I wish these companies could sublet there products out to the fansubbers so everyone could make a profit but that's not going to happen. So you cannot say that these Guys are hurting these companies if anything there keeping this genre alive.

[John]

It's a sad day when people think they're somehow entitled to everyone's property. Bootleggers might make your life easier, but they're leeches, just like fansubbers. The only difference is that the latter doesn't beat license holders to the punch with physical releases, and it's a pretty big difference in this industry. Once you take that away, people have nothing to gain from a legitimate release; the well is poisoned, so why bother at all?

Unlike mainstream titles, the pool for the niche interests is a lot shallower. We're talking sales in the thousands instead of hundreds of thousands or millions; sales where every last unit counts. A licensor like Animeigo has to pay a large sum upfront for the license, and pay staff to put together the DVD and get it produced. If they don't think something will sell, they can't afford to take the risk, especially in this climate.

Consumers are more than ever enraptured in a culture of convenience. This can lead to an "up yours, I've got mine" attitude whenever they want to justify something they really shouldn't, because they expect the world for a pittance. It's an entitlement unearned and undeserved; what's more, these things tend to exist online where one can obtain them without feeding your money to a vicious cycle of leeching. And no one's being stopped from stepping-up and importing these movies they apparently cherish, English-friendly or not.

It's harsh and not fun to talk about, but it's important to do so if we care about supporting the people to whom we owe our entertainment to. If you don't care enough to do that, then blubbering about how you're somehow forced into buying "grey-market" merchandise (a cop-out if there ever was one! Crack open your Webster, this is illegal, i.e. of the black market) is so hyperbolic and ridiculous I don't know where to even begin.

[Takuma]

Daisho, you seem to be forgetting two important things:

1) When Merlin produces a dvd, it will probably cost him a few hundred dollars. He needs to sell a few dozen copies to make even. When Animego produces a dvd, it will probably cost them $10 000. They need to sell thousands of copies to make even.

2) I know you're a true fan, and would buy official discs even when bootlegs had already come out before. But how many other such devoted fans can you really find? You say there's a market for these films, but where are those fans? I don't see them anywhere. On this forum there's like 7 people showing any interest to samurai films. Surely there's a few more elsewhere, but can you really find those thousands that it is required to make an official release profitable.

(this reply repeats some points from John's post because I wrote this last night but didn't hit the submit reply button until now)

[waywardsage]

I just want to chime in here and say that I respect everyones opinion. And just because your opinions differ from mine, I still respect everyone on here who's treating everyone else with respect.

It's just a damn shame that the market has shrank to such a tiny level.

[daisho2004]

See that is my point without having to get out my Webster's dictionary! Merlin and CK keep this genre alive, plain & simple. Yes it really is a shame that this genre is dying. But without these Guys you all know big companies aren't going to put out these great classic movies so how is it that there robbing companies when these companies have no desire to even release these movies. But again everyone is entitled to there own opinion. But it also very funny that I'm sure half the People that bash these Guys still buy there movies from one source or another. But I will always support a legit release of these movies and also the fansubbers who bring these classics to DVD.

[Vegeta84]

Such a great topic and both side make interesting posts.

I'm not going to lie. I've bought a good number of boots in my day, but the moment there is a legit release I snap that up as quickly as possible. However, there are not as many die-hard fans as me. Someone picks up a boot of Violent Streets for $5. Great quality pictures and subs. How many people are going to buy Violent Streets for $19.99 when there is a legit release as they already have a boot copy? Not many.

It sucks as there are many films I want to see and I'm afraid I never will be able to see, so I buy the boot, but the fact remains that a huge chunk of people don't fall into this category.

One way or another the dvd/blu-ray market is down. Not just for Samurai films, but films in general.

I'm not sure what the solution should be, but one thing that I KNOW should happen is that when there is a legit release of a film all boot copies should be discarded. AnimEigo released Onimasa not so long ago, but there is still a seller who has this film on sale on his site? How does that even work?

[daisho2004]

but one thing that I KNOW should happen is that when there is a legit release of a film all boot copies should be discarded

@Vegeta84: I agree with you about that, the only time it should be on there site is if it became out of print....

[DAJIZZARIZZA]

my opinion is much rougher than i'm writing here,.. but i will make it KFC nice, so i do not get band again for speaking my mind.

i think many here are pompus and have their heads up their asses.

these "legit companines" and "bootleg companies" only believe in ONE THING ,.. SALES!

so wake up,.. all you guys claiming self rightiousness by buying "legit" are a bunch of liars,.. you know damn well you have atleast 1 if not 100 bootlegs as you call it in your home right now. THE ONLY ONE remotely being real here is Daisho ,.. atleast he's leting you know he goes both ways,.. lol i do too...

i buy if there is legit releases ,.. if not, i buy or trade to get ANY release i like. you guys saying people like me kill the industry , are hippocites,.. because though you put on a good show ,.. you know you've seen these movies ,.. how ?

so let's stop playing who's a fake ass millionaire ,.. and who cares of others with jobs in america or not. bottom line if it was illegal , merlin could not sell it here in america. it's not holywood movies here,.. these are imported wares .. animeigo would love to do what merlin is doing,.. but because people like us who bad mouth this practice as "bootleg" it would give them a bad cred to do it the merlin way. henceforth YOU LOSE !

I wish the US distributers take the way of the bootlegger as you guys call them , and find stuff that are not circulating YET,.. and licence those ,.. there are plenty of RAZIO films that are not subbed yet,.. go after those,.. and watch sells soar... but no ,.. they are very timid , and do not believe you guys who say "i will only buy legit" like i don't believe you,.. so they go after the safe bets, and release the films that has a track record (which means PEOPLE ALREADY SEEN THEM) that's why sales are low.

a college degree does not make you smart. it just gives you oppertunity.

[Takuma]

Thank you very much, I can proudly tell you I do not own a single bootleg. So, how the hell do I get to see these films? I buy or rent the same official editions editions that those bootleggers rip. So what about subs, they aren't on the disc? When I can find fan subs circulating I just retime them for my disc and voila, it's ready in less than 5 minutes. And when not, I just rely on my Japanese skills. Yes, I did take classes instead of just sitting on my ass and waiting for some bootlegger to sub every film for me.

And in case you're interested what discs I own, I've attached a list to this post + link to images.

Have a nice day.

DVD Collection.pdf

[Vegeta84]

Thank you very much, I can proudly tell you I do not own a single bootleg. So, how the hell do I get to see these films? I buy or rent the same official editions editions that those bootleggers rip. So what about subs, they aren't on the disc? When I can find fan subs circulating I just retime them for my disc and voila, it's ready in less than 5 minutes. And when not, I just rely on my Japanese skills. Yes, I did take classes instead of just sitting on my ass and waiting for some bootlegger to sub every film for me.

And in case you're interested what discs I own, I've attached a list to this post + link to images.

Have a nice day.

Nice collection. I might be blind, but I didn't see Yakuza Graveyard on your Fukasaku collection. Do you like that one?

[John]

Thank you very much, I can proudly tell you I do not own a single bootleg. So, how the hell do I get to see these films? I buy or rent the same official editions editions that those bootleggers rip. So what about subs, they aren't on the disc? When I can find fan subs circulating I just retime them for my disc and voila, it's ready in less than 5 minutes. And when not, I just rely on my Japanese skills. Yes, I did take classes instead of just sitting on my ass and waiting for some bootlegger to sub every film for me.

And in case you're interested what discs I own, I've attached a list to this post + link to images.

Have a nice day.

Are you suggesting that people learn how to do things?

and +1 for andro-erotic Eastern Condors hartbox.

...annnd -1 for A Kite Uncut.

[daisho2004]

all you guys claiming self righteousness by buying "legit" are a bunch of liars,.. you know damn well you have at least 1 if not 100 bootlegs as you call it in your home right now.

@DAJIZZARIZZA: AMEN!!!!!

I will just add my 2 cents in here, if your lucky to find these movies circulating around the internet with English Subtitles, I can almost guarantee they were done by Merlin or CK! I'm not going to get into a another big thing here by saying some of you don't have any boots in your house, but if you've seen a movie that has never been released through a legit company and I know when these movies have been English subtitled or not. Then yes for the most part your lying about it. And while I've watched movies without Subtitles its not hard sometimes to follow the storyline but its not easy to understand the whole premise either. But again I don't knock anyone for buying only legit movies, but don't knock us who enjoy these rare classic movies either. And then you want to see them just as much as well do if not more! Because I'm sure if everyone really posted there entire collection up here I would almost guarantee you have one movie Merlin or CK has done.

[John]

Welp, either you're right and everyone is like you or you're backed into a corner and moving goalposts. Guess we'll never know...

[Takuma]

I do happen to know whose subtitles I'm using. I used to time subtitles for dvds and distribute the sub scrips but I stopped (distributing them) years ago when they'd always end up to torrents even though they were only intended for people who bought the original dvd. Many other guys (who even did translations for some of my favorite movies of all time) also quit around that time.

Nice collection. I might be blind, but I didn't see Yakuza Graveyard on your Fukasaku collection. Do you like that one?

It's one of my Fukasaku favorites. I sold the US dvd cause I've been meaning to get the Toei disc, but never got round to actually buying it

Those dvd collection pictures are a bit outdated anyway, taken when I was still living in Finland. The PDF list is mostly up to date (been selling stuff that isn't absolutely vital to my collection... trying to get the total down to around 600 now).

Are you suggesting that people learn how to do things?

I can't speak for the majority, but

and +1 for andro-erotic Eastern Condors hartbox.

The Germans released that one with multiple artwork options, including some plain normal ones, but that one was the only way to go for me!

[DAJIZZARIZZA]

Daisho , thank you ,.. can't remember but i think i pissed you off one day ,.. good to see it could had just been my persona instead of actual factuals:wink:

Takuma ,.. you are a solid dude ,.. however you must admit ,.. you are EXTREMLY RARE in this area of watching dvds ,.. your "NORMAL fan" of japanese films --- which maybe 95% of us are... will obtain a bootleg dvd (whether he or she likes to admit or not),.. atleast a few times to see a "absotively, positutly" rare movie that will NEVER see the time of day for whatever reason via retail.

you tend to think ,.. and it is "kind of" logical,.. that sells of the remastered version of Shinobi no Mono will cripple the sells of AnimEigo ,.. well not cripple is the facts .. hamper a little ?, maybe. but Animego is very short sighted ... if they build a reporte with the fan base by releasing remasters of films that are not avalible here in the USA via fan subbers,. then fan subbers will cease and give the retailers a shot to release them.

i will give you an example:

when the IVL shaw bros releases were dropping like hot cakes month after month .... you did not see fan subbers touching this genre of films ,.. nor bootlegers getting in on this ... why ? we were soaking up the retails left and right ,.. eventhough they were in R3 ,.. we even went out and start purchasing the region free dvd players ... hot damn! and both mine still play ANY DVD ..

the point is we must see a true commitment to our joy ,.. then we religiously spend the money,.. ok grant you ,.. i traded for about half my shaw bros collection of a little over 400 dvds,.. so i purchased about 160, hey,.. i could not afford buying all 400 at about $20 each. that would had ended some married men relationships at home..lol

and btw ,.. john .. your funny .. you may not like me ,.. but i like your style !

[DAJIZZARIZZA]

by the way Takuma ,..

since you studied the art of "japon languistics" (may not be true word) why don't you sub Stray Cat Rock: Beat '71 the community would LOVE you for it !

see i can work with the 1% !

[daisho2004]

Daisho , thank you ,.. can't remember but i think i pissed you off one day ,.. good to see it could had just been my persona instead of actual factuals

@DAJIZZARIZZA: Bro I don't remember that! lol

But I agree with a lot you have to say I wish these companies could work with the fansubbers in someway. And to be honest I rarely take anything personal on this site, the only time I get into a heated debate is when guys rip into Merlin or CK! And why is that?! Because these Guys keep this genre alive for us die hard fans, there are a lot of People who love this genre or are new to it. But if you ask them what is there favorite Samurai movies what is there first response Shogun Assassin or Seven Samurai these People for the most part don't even know that Shogun Assassin is a rip of 2 films of LW&C And a lot of Guys don't know Merlin use to post on here also to promote his stuff but he got tired of getting ripped apart! There are only about 1-2% of People who bash them but it ruins it for the rest of us. Listen everyone has the right to voice there opinions but they should watch how the insult people or indirectly insult People. (John) I think you have some good knowledge about these movies, I have read and responded to a few of your posts.

The bottom line is if you don't like these Guys or what they do that's fine but don't rip them for putting out stuff we want, or bash us for supporting them! I keep it real I support Merlin & CK 100% always have and always will. Yes I will agree sometimes Merlin's prices are high, but I'm paying for what I want to see, which is my choice!

And Great point was about the SB movies I also went out and bought a region free DVD player back then.

[Takuma]

by the way Takuma ,..

since you studied the art of "japon languistics" (may not be true word) why don't you sub Stray Cat Rock: Beat '71 the community would LOVE you for it !

Even if I did, I can't see anyone buying the official Nikkatsu dvd. So, sorry guys

I quite like that film, though. Like Wild Jumbo, it's by Fujita, so you pretty much know what to expect. It's funny they had two directors working on the series, both coming out with instalments that didn't even belong to the same genre.

[John]

I think you have some good knowledge about these movies, I have read and responded to a few of your posts.

The bottom line is if you don't like these Guys or what they do that's fine but don't rip them for putting out stuff we want, or bash us for supporting them! I keep it real I support Merlin & CK 100% always have and always will. Yes I will agree sometimes Merlin's prices are high, but I'm paying for what I want to see, which is my choice!

It may be your choice, but it is not your right. The people with the rights are the owners of the materials. If you choose to flaunt blatant infringement upon these rights, it should not be surprising that others might likewise be vocal in disagreeing with you and resenting what your actions entail. It's not an attempt to bully you, it's a sincere rebuttal; opposition, not oppression.

[DAJIZZARIZZA]

Even if I did, I can't see anyone buying the official Nikkatsu dvd. So, sorry guys

ok,.. now i know your alittle CRAZY

man,.. we would put the money together so quick ,.. i know i would donate ,.. not only to get the $60 dvd but to even supplement your time and carpal tunnle surgery.

i'm serious and joking at the same time ,.. i have a disease.

but i can understand not having the time to do projects , life tends to rediect our hobbies.

this is my last post on this subject,.. hope i did not hijack this subject too much ,.. i even forgot who originated the whole discussion, but thanks to him.