Member shaolinkng7 Posted May 17, 2012 Member Share Posted May 17, 2012 Did no one think of video taping any of the martial arts movies when they aired on television in the 80s? We all did the same. We had an opportunity to tape our favorite movies when they were still being shown on television. We didn't. When they stopped airing them we all decided that we wanted those movies. We went to the video stores to buy them. What we found was Saturn Video or Master Arts, both with a lot of movies we never heard of, and none of the films from television. Then we found a store that sold Shaw Brothers movies on video. The photo copy shell case boxes and xeroxed labels made it obvious these were bootlegs. But with no other way to get these movies, you bought the Shaw Brothers bootleg. The Shaw Brothers bootlegs were copied from videos that had a legitimate release. The question is, were the legitimately released videos authorized or unauthorized? Did the company that originally release them have a deal with Shaw Brothers to do so, or was it just a disgruntled employee of World Northal releasing the films on his own. My own opinion is that World Northal's deal to broadcast Shaw Brothers movies included the home video rights. Rather than selling the films to a third party, they decided to release them on their own. Using the press kits that would have been provided to them from Shaw Brothers, press kits that included publicity stills and the original movie poster, they cut together crude boxes, and offered the films through mail order. Since letterboxing a film was still unacceptable in the 80s, World Northal decided they needed pan and scan masters. But since hiring an editor to properly pan and scan a movie was expensive, the cheaper alternative was to use the already existing television edits, blocking out the extra credit for the television edit by Larry Bensky with a new copyright credit for Shaw Brothers. The shell cases included catalog numbers, unusual for any bootlegs at the time, but expected from any company manufacturing and distributing videos. Another thing unique to the Shaw Brothers videos was the SB logo on the top of the spine, and smaller SB logos on the front and back of the box. Legal or not, the company that released and distributed he original Shaw Brothers videos vanished the same time World Northal went bankrupt. Here is what I learned happened next. A warehouse in the city, possibly in Queens, had thousands of the Shaw Brothers videos. These were the original tapes in clam shell boxes that were printed, not photo copied, and with labels that were printed stickers, not glued on xerox copies. Someone had leased the warehouse and used it to store the tapes, and from there shipped them across the country to the video stores that ordered them. According to a local video store that bought one of the Shaw Brothers videos in the mid 80s, the price was around $80 per tape. Whoever pressed the tapes could no longer afford to pay the back lease and forfeited the tapes. The warehouse offered the tapes to overstock outlets for $7 a tape to be retailed at $10. Someone who was distributing the cut rate tapes noticed how well they sold, and as the stock ran out decided how easy it would be to photo copy the shell box and press additional tapes. Once the knock offs started appearing, bootleggers began making color xerox boxes of the knock offs. Bootleg Shaw Brothers videos were soon available across the city, and soon spread out to other cities. Only about 45 titles were on Shaw Brothers videos. Since Shaw Brothers was such a goldmine that bootleggers began searching for other Shaw Brother videos, sometimes going as far as buying and converting legally released PAL tapes from the U.K. There had been a few Shaw Brothers movies that were legally released by legit video companies, such as South Gate, but were distributed direct to rental shops instead of in stores for an affordable price. Even Master Arts and Saturn originally marketed their videos at $80 direct to rental shops who had no idea which moves were classics and which were crap. Whenever a Shaw Brothers tape was discovered in a rental shop that had not yet appeared on the bootleg market, it was like finding gold. Bootleggers paid these rental shops top dollar for the tapes and their boxes. The following is a list of all the bootleg Shaw Brothers movies that turned up on VHS in the 90s, including the original Shaw Brothers videos with their catalog number. Covers often had two different movie titles. Both the U.S. release title and the original H.K. title. Usually the second title was on the movie poster on the front of the box. 3 Evil Masters ( The Evil Masters ) SB-1033 4 Assassins ( Marco Polo ) SB-1089 Angry Guest ( Kung Fu Killer ) SB-1080 Avenging Eagle SB-1029 Challenge of the Masters SB-1028 Chinatown Kid SB-1035 Death Chambers ( Shaolin Temple ) SB-1060 Disciples of Death SB-1026 Destroyers ( The Magnificent Ruffians ) SB-1081 Dirty Ho SB-1034 Duel of the Iron Fist ( The Duel ) SB-1082 Dynasty of Blood SB-1038 Executioners From Shaolin SB-1033 Fists of the White Lotus SB-1043 Five Deadly Venoms SB-1051 Five Masters of Death SB-1058 Flying Guillotine SB-1053 Grand Master of Death SB-1054 The Heroic Ones SB-1059 Heroes Two SB-1031 Instructors of Death/The Martial Club SB-1040 Invincible Kung Fu Brothers ( Shaolin Avengers ) SB-1062 Invincible One ( Disciples of Shaolin ) SB-1061 Iron Chain Fighter SB-1052 The Kid With the Golden Arm SB-1052 Killer Army ( The Guerrillas ) SB-1078 Killer From Shantung ( The Boxer From Shantung ) SB-1088 Kung Fu Hellcats SB-1086 The Kung Fu Instructor SB-1040 Kung Fu Vengeance SB-1039 [ Note: Never shown on Black Belt Theater. And this version was unedited for content ] Kung Fu Warlords ( Shaolin Archer ) SB-1085 [ For a while the movie inside the box was "Thunderbolt Fist" with it's opening credits removed. "Kung Fu Warlords" finally turned up in 1993, source unknown. ] Legendary Weapons of Kung Fu SB-1041 Master of Kung Fu SB-1027 Mortal Combat/Crippled Avengers SB-1036 Roar of the Lion SB-1053 [ Bootleg sourced directly from a World Northal video edit, including the leader that is not shown on television.] The Savage 5 SB-1032 Seven Soldiers of Kung Fu ( 7 Blows of the Dragon 2 )( All Men Are Brothers ) SB-1079 Shaolin Handlock SB-1033 Shaolin Mantis SB-1037 Slice Of Death ( Abbot of Shaolin ) SB-1028 The Spearman ( Flag of Iron ) SB-1039 Street Gangs of Hong Kong ( The Delinquent ) SB-1084 [ For some reason the film inside the box was "Young Avenger" with the opening credit changed to "Street Gangs of Hong Kong: The Delinquent". Around 1992 someone sourced a U.K. video release of the film, with the ending that was cut out of the Black Belt Theater version. ] Ten Tigers of Kwangtung SB-1050 Unbeatable Dragon SB-1042 Warrior of Steel ( Man of Iron ) SB-1052 Bootlegs sourced from U.K. Warner Brothers PAL. including box: Challenge of the Ninja Mad Monkey Kung Fu The Masked Avengers Superfighters Return of the Master Killer ( Also included a Shaw Brother film called "The Killer" which never aired on BBT ) Bootleg sourced from Warner Brothers USA Seven Blows of the Dragon Bootlegs sourced from unknown video company but using same style box with no company logo: Five Fingers of Death Super Ninjas Bootleg sourced from EMI UK video "Triple Irons", which was never shown on BBT, was bootleged under it's H.K. title "The New One Armed Swordsman" but using the "Triple Irons" dub version. Ended up at Master Arts Video: Iron Fingers of Death [ Under the alternative title "Death Mask of the Ninja" ] Karate Exterminators [ Under the alternative title "Lightning Kung Fu" ] Stroke of Death (?) [ Under the title "Monkey Kung Fu" ? ] Bootleg sourced from Embassy: Master Killer Bootleg sourced from South Gate: Two Champions of Death ( Strangely enough, no one bothered to bootleg "Bells of Death" or "Duel of Fists". Both ended up on the trade market. ) Bootleg sourced from Trolley Car Record & Filmworks 7 Brothers Meet Dracula Bootlegs that showed up in the 90s in handmade boxes, source unknown: 8 Diagram Pole Fighter Avenging Warriors Blast of the Iron Palm [ the only Shaw Brothers bootleg to have been cam corded from a theater ] Daredevils of Kung Fu Deadly Mantis [ Yes, again. Bootleggers did not realize it was the same movie as "Shaolin Mantis" ] Master of Disaster ( a.k.a. The Treasure Hunters ) Shaolin Intruders Shaolin Martial Arts Trade Tape available in the 90s with no box: Bloody Avengers ( Taped off of WNEW-5 with station logo ) The following Black Belt Theater movies, as far as I knew, were never available on the bootleg market or as trade videos: Deadly Angels Bruce Lee: His Last Days, His Last Nights Strike 4 Revenge Also: The horror movie "Black Magic" was bootlegged in a Shaw Brothers Video box but without a catalog number. An odd wrap around box for "One Armed Swordsman", possibly a copy of a movie card, existed. But contained the movie "One Armed Swordsmen" with David Chiang and Jimmy Wang Yu. "Secret Rivals" was bootlegged in a box with the Shaw Brothers Video logo, even though the back of the box identified it as a Seasonal Film. "Secret Rivals 2" was in an identical box but with the Tamo Video logo instead of the Shaw Brothers logo. "Dance of the Drunken Mantis" was in a box with a Shaw Brothers logo. "Ninja Warlord" was another movie found in a faked Shaw Brothers box. It was the only Someone went out of their way to make the box for the Golden Harvest film "Hand of Death" with Jackie Chan look like a Shaw Brothers Video, logo and everything. "Kung Fu Commandos" was bootleged with the Shaw Brothers company logo edited on to the beginning. A box with the Shaw Brothers logo, the Chinese poster for "A Fist Full of Talons" and the English title "Wandering Dragons" and yet a third movie inside was for a while available on the bootleg market. "The Best of Shaw Brothers" and "Best of Shaw Brothers II" had fight scenes edited out of different Shaw Brothers movies. It was obviously put together by bootleggers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member dionbrother Posted May 19, 2012 Member Share Posted May 19, 2012 SB Video was George Tan bootlegging tv tapes and aircheck recordings from Hawaii. He was employed at World Northal before launching Dragon Video out of New York. He grabbed tapes as the company was shutting its doors around 1989. His real name is something like Francois Saisan or something like that. Search for his name on this board and you'll get some informative threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member dionbrother Posted May 19, 2012 Member Share Posted May 19, 2012 Also there are threads on Southgate, Embassy, Vista and other legit home video licensors dating back to the Linn Hayes days. They might still be around, but we cleared up a lot of myth on these releases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member shaolinkng7 Posted May 19, 2012 Author Member Share Posted May 19, 2012 This is a screen capture from Embassy's release of "Dynamo" showing the one frame with Larry Bensky's screen credit, and the following frames where it is covered up with an unnecessary copyright credit. This was done in 1985. Since World Northal was the exclusive distributor of "Dynamo", they were also the only ones that Embassy could obtain a print of the film from. And here we see that World Northal was providing the edited for television print. I have no doubt that 1989 and up every one of those Shaw Brothers movies were bootlegged, but there is enough convincing evidence that World Northal was responsible for distributing the Shaw Brothers videos before that, or at the least was in collusion with whoever was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member daisho2004 Posted May 20, 2012 Member Share Posted May 20, 2012 I use to see these movies being sold in video stores! Unreal! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member daisho2004 Posted May 20, 2012 Member Share Posted May 20, 2012 I just felt the need to go old school, and bring this back! Intro to Channel 5 Saturday Drive in Movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg9_RM3z0sk&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLB0EEED19EF8F5794 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member dionbrother Posted May 20, 2012 Member Share Posted May 20, 2012 I have no doubt that 1989 and up every one of those Shaw Brothers movies were bootlegged, but there is enough convincing evidence that World Northal was responsible for distributing the Shaw Brothers videos before that, or at the least was in collusion with whoever was. Where is the "convincing evidence"? World Northal licensed some titles to Embassy Home Video, which they had the right to do. Embassy utilized WN's incomplete tv prints, because the idea of "uncut, uncensored" wasn't a priority with video companies and kung fu movies at the time. Dragon Video bootlegs popped up around the time World Northal shut down for good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member shaolinkng7 Posted May 21, 2012 Author Member Share Posted May 21, 2012 Where is the "convincing evidence"? World Northal licensed some titles to Embassy Home Video, which they had the right to do. Embassy utilized WN's incomplete tv prints, because the idea of "uncut, uncensored" wasn't a priority with video companies and kung fu movies at the time. Dragon Video bootlegs popped up around the time World Northal shut down for good. I saw at least one Shaw Brother Video in it's clamshell box mid 80s at a local video store, about 84 or 85. As for the Embassy video, since World Northal was the exclusive N.A. distributor to "Dynamo" and the other titles that Embassy released, they were the sole source for master prints. In other words, Embassy had to get a copy of the movie from somewhere that they could transfer to video. That somewhere was World Northal. The print that World Northal provided was not just edited for television, but had an edited for television credit burned onto the print itself. Even back in the 80s people who rented videos did so because they wanted to see an unedited version on their screen. This was especially true with R rated films. Embassy would have preferred having an unedited print of the movie. It would have sold better than a print that was exactly the same as what was already on television. But World Northal was only providing edited for television prints at that time. This is not meant to be proof that the Shaw Brothers videos were legit. But it does debunk any argument that the Shaw Brothers videos must be bootlegs because they were sourced from the Larry Bensky edits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member dionbrother Posted May 24, 2012 Member Share Posted May 24, 2012 World Northal supplied edited prints to Embassy because nobody cared if these movies were uncut or not. They were considered juvenile entertainment for ethnic audiences. Tv prints for films like MR. BILLIONS and HALLOWEEN were released on big labels at the time like Key Video and Video Treasures. It wasn't because they were evil or deceptive. Uncut just wasn't a big deal like it has been in the last 20 years. Kung fu movies and European horror movies were often released in cut tv prints on home video because distributors didn't respect their own product. The SB videos you saw were likely taped off tv and bootlegged by several possible suspects in the New York area. A friend of mine taped Hawaii broadcasts(which were the most complete save for the few that aired on Showtime and Home Theater Network) and sent them to fans in other states throughout the 1980s. He'd frequently hear about "SB Videos" with the Hawaii tv stations logo being rented in stores that had no qualms about renting boots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member shaolinkng7 Posted May 25, 2012 Author Member Share Posted May 25, 2012 World Northal supplied edited prints to Embassy because nobody cared if these movies were uncut or not. They were considered juvenile entertainment for ethnic audiences. Tv prints for films like MR. BILLIONS and HALLOWEEN were released on big labels at the time like Key Video and Video Treasures. It wasn't because they were evil or deceptive. Uncut just wasn't a big deal like it has been in the last 20 years. Kung fu movies and European horror movies were often released in cut tv prints on home video because distributors didn't respect their own product. That is a misconception. Video companies did care if their films were abridged. The big selling point of home video was that you could watch an unabridged version of a theatrical film, especially ones with nudity and foul language. Studios deliberately added nudity and profanity to films that otherwise did not need it because it attracted a juvenile audience looking for the shock value. Home video companies realized the same thing. They wanted R films because the average teen and pre-teen wanted to rent R films. Rental shops did not police films the way theaters did. With exception to keeping the X films in a separate section that only adults were allowed in, very few video stores prevented underage members from renting R films. And R films is what they sought. Every one of the Black Belt Theater films released on Embassy has printed on the box that the films are rated R. The R rating was a selling point for the video. They would have prefered if World Northal provided an R rated print. The SB videos you saw were likely taped off tv and bootlegged by several possible suspects in the New York area. A friend of mine taped Hawaii broadcasts(which were the most complete save for the few that aired on Showtime and Home Theater Network) and sent them to fans in other states throughout the 1980s. He'd frequently hear about "SB Videos" with the Hawaii tv stations logo being rented in stores that had no qualms about renting boots. I was pointing out that a SB video exited at least four years before World Northal went bankrupt. I can not vouch for what was on the video. We were too busy renting "Class of 1984", "I Spit On Your Grave", and I have no idea why the store allowed us to rent this, "Let My Puppets Come". The only martial arts film we rented in the 80s was "Enter the Dragon", and possibly "The Challenge". But the same SB box existed in the mid 80s, and the video store we belonged to never, to my knowledge, rented any bootlegs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member odioustrident Posted May 25, 2012 Member Share Posted May 25, 2012 Out of curiosity, has anyone seen martial arts bootlegs in clamshells? Is there a precedent for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member OpiumKungFuCracker Posted May 25, 2012 Member Share Posted May 25, 2012 I was like 8 at the time when these airings was happening.. Maybe if I went in a time machine and at the age that I am now, I would record everything!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member blue_skies Posted May 25, 2012 Member Share Posted May 25, 2012 I was like 8 at the time when these airings was happening.. Maybe if I went in a time machine and at the age that I am now, I would record everything!!!! Why not just go back and pick up all of the celestial DVDs? I imagine the quality of those TV recordings were pretty bad by today's standards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Shaolivevil Posted May 25, 2012 Member Share Posted May 25, 2012 Why not just go back and pick up all of the celestial DVDs? I imagine the quality of those TV recordings were pretty bad by today's standards I still have the VHS copies of DUEL OF THE IRON FIST(THE DUEL), STREET GANGS OF HONG KONG(THE DELINQUENT), and THE SAVAGE 5 I taped off TV back in the late 80's-early 90's. Their quality is pretty low by today's standards but back in those days, it was pure gold. We all know that the tv broadcasts of these looked way better than what was on the bootleg VHS. When it came to the Shaw bootlegs or just kung fu movie bootlegs in general, beggers couldn't be choosers when it came to quality. It ultimately came down with what you could live with. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's decided that he'd rather have a bad copy of a favorite movie than no movie at all. I'm also sure I'm not the only one who's bought the same movie 2-3 times looking for the best looking copy and 9 times out of 10, the quality was the no better each time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member dionbrother Posted May 31, 2012 Member Share Posted May 31, 2012 "That is a misconception. Video companies did care if their films were abridged. The big selling point of home video was that you could watch an unabridged version of a theatrical film, especially ones with nudity and foul language. Studios deliberately added nudity and profanity to films that otherwise did not need it because it attracted a juvenile audience looking for the shock value. Home video companies realized the same thing. They wanted R films because the average teen and pre-teen wanted to rent R films. Rental shops did not police films the way theaters did. With exception to keeping the X films in a separate section that only adults were allowed in, very few video stores prevented underage members from renting R films. And R films is what they sought." No one at the video companies gave a flyng fornication if the kung fu movies were uncut. Because they weren't. They were not mainstream and were ghettoized in video stores. I was social with video store owners and buyers in the days of Mom & Pop shops. More than one told me "those are for blacks and little kids." Not being prejudiced, they just weren't beloved by film fans at the time. DYNAMO is missing nudity, yet was licensed from World Northal by Embassy. World Northal had the Larry Bensky tv edits, which cut nudity and bathroom humor, and rarely made uncut versions for premium cable because HBO and Showtime were not really interested in airing dubbed movies. "Every one of the Black Belt Theater films released on Embassy has printed on the box that the films are rated R. The R rating was a selling point for the video. They would have prefered if World Northal provided an R rated print. " They were rated R for theatrical distribution. They were never rated for video release. It wasn't mandatory for films to be uncut, and since "serious" film fans didn't watch them, it didn't matter to Embassy or World Northal. CBS/Fox released the mutilated cuts of THE STREETFIGHTER and RETURN OF THE STREETFIGHTER (which would be rated G if seen today), because nobody gave a damn about any film with a non-white cast. Ocean Shores was unique at the time because their prints were uncut, and they boasted about it. CBS/Fox was a major video company at the time. After the Bruce Lee movies sold like crazy, did they think about quality? Fuck no. They decided any of that "chop suey" crap would sell and released subpar movies like SHAOLIN DEATH SQUAD and FIGHT FOR SURVIVAL. There was no collective fandom, and subscribers of zines like The Jade Screen numbered in the dozens. Kung fu films were the ass-end of the video business. Nobody cared, because the whites running these companies didn't understand them and refused to learn about them. Movie nerds were into samurai films but thought Hong Kong made garbage starring Bruce Lee clones. The big critic/buff love for Jackie Chan and John Woo changed that, but it was years before anybody cared for Shaw Bros. movies, and it is still tough to sell them in the US. Ask any company that has released them on dvd. The sales aren't there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member shaolinkng7 Posted June 3, 2012 Author Member Share Posted June 3, 2012 They were rated R for theatrical distribution. They were never rated for video release. It wasn't mandatory for films to be uncut, and since "serious" film fans didn't watch them, it didn't matter to Embassy or World Northal. Embassy was under no legal obligation to post an R rating on any of their tapes. They did so because it would attract kids looking for the thrill of renting what they could not watch in the theaters without Mom and Dad tagging along. That is exactly why you rented R films when you were 12, and why you probably stuck your nose up at perfectly good G rated films. Every kid went through that phase the second their parents signed them up as a member of a video club. Even adults found it novel that they could watch uncensored movies on their television. We are not talking about serious film fans. We are talking about the regular person who wanted to watch something uncut and uncensored. That is also why channels like HBO attracted subscribers. Uncut and uncensored. A huge novelty back in the 70s and 80s. Something everyone today takes for granted. Uncut and uncensored did not exist outside the movie theater until HBO and home video showed up. If no one cared then why did World Northal bother to obliterate the "Edited for Television" credit? I imagine they would have needed to get Bensky's permission to do this. If he had an on screen credit then it would have been in his contract with World Northal. Most likely he would have been paid off to allow his edit used on home video sans the credit. All that trouble to remove a credit because they did not want anyone knowing the movies were censored. If no one cared back then they would have left the credit as is. Removing it showed that the home video business realized that the general public who rented and sometimes bought movies did not want them edited. CBS/Fox released the mutilated cuts of THE STREETFIGHTER and RETURN OF THE STREETFIGHTER (which would be rated G if seen today), because nobody gave a damn about any film with a non-white cast. It was New Line Home Video that released "Street Fighter" and MGM/UA Home Video that released the sequel. In the mid 70s New Line was the theatrical distributor of the Street Fighter films. It became the first movie ever to receive an X rating for violence. When the MPAA instituted the ratings system they copyrighted G, R, and PG. They did not copyright the X rating because they assumed no distributor would be dumb enough to rate their own movie X. Then porn films hit the mainstream, sort of, with "Deep Throat" and porn distributors, who thought sending their films in for review would be a waste of money, simply released them with a self imposed X, eventually even releasing them as XX and XXX, two ratings that have no real meaning. Prior to that X was an acceptable rating. Both Marlon Brando's "Last Tango in Paris" and the Academy Award winning best picture "Midnight Cowboy" were distributed with X ratings. But by 1974 X ratings became so associated with porn that most theaters refused to book any film with that rating. New Line could only book the film in Porn theaters, and subsequently the film tanked. ( if you ever wondered why some of the porn theaters in Times Square ran martial arts films during the daytime hours, this is where it began. Open minded New Yorkers flocked to see the infamous ultra violent "Street Fighter". It made so much money for the lone theater that booked it that they began booking other martial arts films. The trend spread to other theaters. ) New Line capitulated. Removing the film from distribution they asked the MPAA what cuts they could make to get a R rating. The MPAA came up with several, including nearly every fight scene. The censored version was released to theaters, now with an R rating, and somehow made a lot of money for New Line. New Line asked what cuts could be made to "Return of the Street Fighter" to prevent another X rating, and the MPAA were more than happy to make their suggestions. Film critics protested the X rating. Many times films they had seen at festivals were edited after receiving an X rating, being released as a substandard R film. Siskel and Ebert were extremely vocal against the MPAA. They had given "9½ Weeks" two thumbs down, but then later seeing the unreleased X rated version on home video changed their reviews. The uncut version had scenes crucial to the plot. Once reinstated the second half of the movie made sense. Siskel and Ebert began demanding a change in the MPAA rating system, pointing out that splatter films like "A Nightmare on Elm Street" that turned violence into entertainment got R ratings while intelligent adult movies got the X. They suggested the institution of what would eventually become the NC-17 rating, that would restrict films for adults only but would not be associated with porn. This brings us to the home video release. Rumor was that lawyers for New Line and MGM/UA advised them to release the R rated version on video, because if they released the X version then the video stored would have to stick it in the adult section. The flaw in this urban legend was this; video stores were not bound by the MPAA rating system. It was up to each store if they wanted to rent R or even X films to kids 12 and under. The ratings system only applied to movie theaters. However, it was illegal to distribute pornographic material to minors, which is why porn films ended up in the segregated adult section. "A Clockwork Orange" which was X rated on it's initial release could be found outside the adult section in most stores, and along with "Faces of Death" was one of the early hits in video rental. An X rated "The Street Fighter" was not considered pornographic. In 1995 when New Line restored "The Street Fighter" for laserdisc release, the truth came out about why the R version had previously been released. When New Line made the drastic cuts to the film to appease the MPAA, they cut the master print. By the 80s New Line no longer had in their possession an unedited print of the film. While it was possible to obtain a new print from Toei, they discovered that no one had the uncut English dub track. The restored version used the Japanese laser disc for the picture element, and the existing English dub from the censored version. To make up for the audio gaps New Line had to reconstruct audio for the censored scenes with new voice over artists. In the 1980s a restoration was unthinkable. it would have cost more to restore the film than what they would make in sales. Back then movies were sold directly to rental shops at around $70 and were not mass produced for the home market. Things were different in the 90s where a home video market existed. Ocean Shores was unique at the time because their prints were uncut, and they boasted about it. All Seasons Entertainment also released uncut prints. Their release of "Shaolin Wooden Men" was accompanied by this disclaimer: "All Seasons Entertainment strives to release the highest quality in home video programming. 'Shaolin Wooden Men' has been mastered from the last known print, and all possible steps have been taken to insure the film's overall quality. However, certain portions of 'Shaolin Wooden Men' were unable to be corrected, even with the highest technical processes. Your understanding is sincerely appreciated" Many of the Ocean Shores videos were edited. "13 Evil Bandits" ( a.k.a. "No One Can Touch Her" ) was extremely edited, including the 30min final fight cut down to 15min. Like many video companies, they could call their movies uncut as long as they were not the ones who edited the film. The big critic/buff love for Jackie Chan and John Woo changed that, but it was years before anybody cared for Shaw Bros. movies, and it is still tough to sell them in the US. Ask any company that has released them on dvd. The sales aren't there. The market for Shaw Brothers peaked around 1990. Nearly ten years of the movies airing on Black Belt Theater gave the studio a good reputation. It's contract players like Fu Sheng and Ti Lung became as well known as Angela Mao and Jimmy Wang Yu. At some point in the mid 90s Shaw Brothers made the decision to withdraw their movies from circulation, not allowing them on video or on television. That was a decade or more where the only Shaw Brothers films available were bootlegs. Most of the fans of Black Belt Theater are now in their mid 40s. Many outgrew the martial arts and action genre. Many became fans of the HK new wave which included the films of Jackie Chan and Jet Li, and now find the old school HK films too slow and old fashioned. The die hard fans who never gave up on old school have since discovered how to find these films on the world market. They bought the Celestial releases direct from other countries months, even years before Dragon Dynasty got around to releasing the same movies in this country. The Shaw Brothers movies were mishandled by all. The bootleg market made a fortune on them. The few video companies that released Shaw Brothers films, like Golden Gate, sold them wholesale to rental shops at $70. You could neither find them on the shelves of stores, and if you did know they were in print and fond a video store that would order one for you, it would be expensive. When Embassy's release of "Master Killer" was released to the retail market at $10 it sold out immediately. ( Too bad the reason Embassy movies hit the retail market was because the company was going into bankruptcy. ) Master Arts had the opportunity to release Shaw Brothers films and blew it because they thought Shaw Brothers was asking too much money for the rights. ( This is the real reason why so few of the good films made it to home video, the same reason why so many bad films were distributed to theaters. The asking price for the good films were more money. The asking price for Bruce Li and other crap was cheap. ) The old school HK films should now be considered part of the nostalgia market, no different than the John Wayne films were back in the 80s. Like any films in the nostalgia market, they need to be promoted to a new generation. They can't just be released with minuscule publicity and expect to sell as well as the Jackie Chan movies. New Line spent an entire year just promoting Jackie Chan, having him make American talk show appearances and accepting a Lifetime Achievement Award from at the MTV Movie Awards, before they released "Rumble in the Bronx". Jet Li also received the pre-release publicity tour. The Shaw Brothers films were released cold. There should have been mass publicity on G4, SPIKE and FX. None of this was done. These are great films and would find a huge audience in this country, if only they were properly promoted. If the movies get enough airplay on cable then eventually Shaw Brothers will get a following, the same way they had a following back in the early 90s from Black Belt Theater. But right now they are a niche market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member dionbrother Posted June 4, 2012 Member Share Posted June 4, 2012 "If no one cared then why did World Northal bother to obliterate the "Edited for Television" credit? I imagine they would have needed to get Bensky's permission to do this. If he had an on screen credit then it would have been in his contract with World Northal. Most likely he would have been paid off to allow his edit used on home video sans the credit. All that trouble to remove a credit because they did not want anyone knowing the movies were censored. If no one cared back then they would have left the credit as is. Removing it showed that the home video business realized that the general public who rented and sometimes bought movies did not want them edited." The Embassy editions were edited, because nobody gave an eff. You don't "Edited for Television" logo on a video tape, because it's looks unprofessional. Larry also panned and scanned the prints. "It was New Line Home Video that released "Street Fighter" and MGM/UA Home Video that released the sequel. In the mid 70s." Wrong, but you are half right. There was no New Line Home Video. Didn't exist until the 90s. Media Home Entertainment handled New Line's product, as did Thorn/EMI and MGM or CBS/Fox. MGM/UA probably did release the first two, and I misremembered it being CBS/Fox . They had no macrovision, so it likely wasn't CBS Fox. Media released STREETFIGHTER'S LAST REVENGE. Doesn't matter, they are completely useless and left in the dustbin of shite video releasing history. "These are great films and would find a huge audience in this country, if only they were properly promoted. If the movies get enough airplay on cable then eventually Shaw Brothers will get a following, the same way they had a following back in the early 90s from Black Belt Theater. But right now they are a niche market." They are great films, but it is difficult to win new fans because most Americans are conditioned with the post-Jackie Chan new stuff. The Shaw flicks move too slow, have too much plot(are very Chinese) and the choreography is not spectacular enough to the unknowledgable western eye. We've been over this stuff before...years ago, in fact and this is an old, worn subject for the board. What little new cult they have comes from Wu Tang Clan records and some acknowledgement from KILL BILL. I really don't care anymore. People like what they like, and it isn't up to me to promote them or steer them in that direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member shaolinkng7 Posted June 4, 2012 Author Member Share Posted June 4, 2012 Wrong, but you are half right. There was no New Line Home Video. Didn't exist until the 90s. Media Home Entertainment handled New Line's product, as did Thorn/EMI and MGM or CBS/Fox. MGM/UA probably did release the first two, and I misremembered it being CBS/Fox . They had no macrovision, so it likely wasn't CBS Fox. Media released STREETFIGHTER'S LAST REVENGE. Doesn't matter, they are completely useless and left in the dustbin of shite video releasing history. My mistake. What I meant to say was that both films were distributed by New Line's home video division released both films through M.G.M., the first on M.G.M./CBS and the second on M.G.M./U.A. CBS/FOX, which bought the rights to the Bruce Lee films, was a different company. I only pointed this out because the argument was previously made that CBS/FOX had released the Bruce Lee films, then went on to release nothing else but mediocre crap. The Shaw flicks move too slow.............and the choreography is not spectacular enough to the unknowledgable western eye. If that is the case then explain why Chuck Norris and Steven Seagal movies still sell? Their choreography is not only slow, but has long pauses between each movement. Also, I have met plenty of people who can not stand watching Jackie Chan films because the choreography is too fast for them. ......have too much plot(are very Chinese)..... Not the case in every Shaw Brothers film. Maybe with the Venom films, but most of their movies are not cultural specific. "The Duel", "Boxer From Shantung", "Man of Iron", "The Delinquent", "Vengeance", "The Savage 5" and "Chinatown Kid" are gangster genre films that would be no different plot wise if about the Mafia in New Jersey. The Shaolin movies involving the rebel monks are easy enough to understand, even if you do not know about the history behind them. Government = bad guys; Shaolin and rebels = good guys. Even films like "Avenging Eagles", "Crippled Avengers", "Heroes of the East", "Flying Guillotine", "Kung Fu Hellcats", "The One Armed Swordsman", "The New One Armed Swordsman" and "8 Diagram Pole Fighter" are easy enough to follow, even if knowing some background in Chinese culture makes their stories more compelling. Sure, most Americans would not get "Cat vs. Rat", or would not be able to follow "Brave Archer". I have seen plenty of Chang Cheh films where I had to keep a score card just to keep track of every character and their motives. And I have seen plenty of films where in order to get to the spectacular fight at the end you had to sit through an hour of bad comedy. These are the films you get to once you became a die hard fan of the studio and want to see everything. But there are enough films that can win over new Shaw Brothers fans the way "King Boxer" did in the 70s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member dionbrother Posted June 5, 2012 Member Share Posted June 5, 2012 Seagal and Norris' movies sell because they are American and white. That has everything to do with why their movies were released widely throughout America and broadcast endlessly on cable tv. They played outside the normal grindhouse/action track cinema circuits and were endless replays on the Bronson-Eastwood formula, a familiar American format. Seagal's early films did very well in Asian territories like Japan and Hong Kong because for the time, his choreography was more realistic or believable. And that level of reality is something American audiences were obsessed with at the time, and Seagal's brutality (the arm snapping) sold him as credible. Americans didn't like cartoonish action. It really took THE MATRIX to sell Hong Kong choreography on a massive level in the US. As for Shaw movies having mass appeal, I stand by my original reasons. It is nice that you opened your mind to enjoying them, and I think they are fantastic as well, but most white Americans are very closed-minded about them. They don't want to like them. Most are obsessed with watching movies with the same old actors and rarely try anything new. I knew a number of martial artists who hated Shaw films and most Chinese movies because they aren't "realistic." They also think once you've seen Bruce Lee's movies, you don't need to watch any other Chinese stars. They aren't willing to suspend disbelief or accept the "live action comic book" or fantasy elements of these films. Not realizing their own love of SPIDER-MAN or BATMAN is just as goofy to the Asian mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jesse Smooth Posted June 6, 2012 Member Share Posted June 6, 2012 Seagal and Norris' movies sell because they are American and white. That has everything to do with why their movies were released widely throughout America and broadcast endlessly on cable tv. They played outside the normal grindhouse/action track cinema circuits and were endless replays on the Bronson-Eastwood formula, a familiar American format. Seagal's early films did very well in Asian territories like Japan and Hong Kong because for the time, his choreography was more realistic or believable. And that level of reality is something American audiences were obsessed with at the time, and Seagal's brutality (the arm snapping) sold him as credible. Americans didn't like cartoonish action. It really took THE MATRIX to sell Hong Kong choreography on a massive level in the US. As for Shaw movies having mass appeal, I stand by my original reasons. It is nice that you opened your mind to enjoying them, and I think they are fantastic as well, but most white Americans are very closed-minded about them. They don't want to like them. Most are obsessed with watching movies with the same old actors and rarely try anything new. I knew a number of martial artists who hated Shaw films and most Chinese movies because they aren't "realistic." They also think once you've seen Bruce Lee's movies, you don't need to watch any other Chinese stars. They aren't willing to suspend disbelief or accept the "live action comic book" or fantasy elements of these films. Not realizing their own love of SPIDER-MAN or BATMAN is just as goofy to the Asian mind. Keeping in mind that these same (suburban) white Americans are anime fans who dress up as samurai while attending Comic Cons. It also boils down to martial arts not playing a major role in American history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member shaolinkng7 Posted June 10, 2012 Author Member Share Posted June 10, 2012 Seagal and Norris' movies sell because they are American and white. That has everything to do with why their movies were released widely throughout America and broadcast endlessly on cable tv. They played outside the normal grindhouse/action track cinema circuits and were endless replays on the Bronson-Eastwood formula, a familiar American format. Problem with that argument is that it sidesteps your original argument that the Shaw Brothers films are too slow for Americans. Also, are we to assume that the only reason why Seagal and Norris became famous was because they were cheap knock off's of Clint Eastwood and Charles Bronson and not because they were promoted as martial artists? More specific, Chuck Norris was promoted as the guy who fought Bruce Lee. People went to see his films looking for the martial arts. Lots of people complained whenever he was in a film with little or no martial arts. "Code of Silence" was perhaps his best film, but one his fans detested. The martial arts takes place in a brief bar fight a good hour into the film. The ending of the movie is action packed, but does not involve martial arts. Chuck takes out an entire gang all by himself using guns, explosives and a prototype armed robot. No one would have complained if Clint Eastwood had actually been the star. "Code of Silence" could have easily been one of the Dirty Harry sequels. But Chuck Norris was the star, and his fans were pissed that the film ended without him kicking or punching anyone. Steven Seagal came out of nowhere when Michael Ovitz wanted to prove he could make a star out of anyone, even his boring Aikido instructor who had no acting ability whatsoever, and zero screen presence. Ovitz pulled some strings and got Seagal a starring role in three consecutive formula action films, practically brainwashing everyone into thinking this guy must be a star. His big break came from a Bruce Willis/Die Hard rip off "Under Siege", and then he pissed it all away by writing and directing the rest of his films. It should be pointed out that Seagal probably would have never been given his own films had Jackie Chan agreed to continue making films for Warner Brothers. After "The Protector" Chan gave up on Hollywood, preferring to have full creative control of his own films in Hong Kong. Warner Brothers had crafted a new screen persona for Chan which kept in mind that he spoke very little English. That same persona was given to Segal, along with the same vengeful cop formula used in "The Protector". The American public was well aware of the HK martial arts genre. There had been the hit television series "Kung Fu" as a perfect introduction to the Chinese culture, the suprise hit film "Five Fingers of Death", the unprecedented posthumous stardom of Bruce Lee, Carl Douglas' hit song "Kung Fu Fighting" and countless advertisements for the latest chop socky import at the local grindhouse or drive-in. There was a demand for martial arts, and I am sure American action fans were well aware that the domestically produced films were watered down. The commercials for the Asian films showed non stop action. The Hollywood films made you sit through countless minutes of plot, sometimes up to a half hour, before you finally saw the hero hit someone. And then it was usually some lame, over in two seconds thing. You were strung along for the full 90 minutes waiting for the one full fight between the hero and the villain, and when it happened it was paced like KATA---KATA--STRIKE---KATA---KATA---KATA---STRIKE--KATA---KATA--KATA--STRIKE AND HIT---DIRT IN EYE--KATA--KATA--STRIKE---KATA---KATA---KATA--FIGHT ENDING BLOW. And the movie ends with the hero walking off with the girl. What a rip off. You paid good money to see martial arts action and got hardly any of it in return. Those who went to see the early Hollywood martial arts movies had at least some interest in the genre. And I am sure they were disappointed in what they got from Norris, Jim Kelly, Robert Conrad, Joe Don Baker, or Tom Laughlin. They must have been aware that the films imported from Asia had the real thing. If anything the Americanized Kung Fu made in the 70s, or the later wave starring Seagal, Van Damme, Speakman, Taimak, Cabot and Macchio, acted as doorways to the Asian films. I have known countless Asian martial arts fans who were introduced to the genre through watching the American martial arts films, then moving on to the Asian films and discovering that even their crap had far better fighting than what was coming out of Hollywood. And once they were into Chan, Li and the Shaws, they lost interest in almost everything made outside of Asia. They would rather buy washed out pan and scan poorly subtitled 20th generation bootlegs of HK films that rent a mastered from the original negative letterboxed DVD of a movie shot in English. But it always comes down to Norris and Seagal's films selling because of martial arts, not because anyone thought they were great actors. As for Shaw movies having mass appeal, I stand by my original reasons. It is nice that you opened your mind to enjoying them, and I think they are fantastic as well, but most white Americans are very closed-minded about them. They don't want to like them. Most are obsessed with watching movies with the same old actors and rarely try anything new. It is the same with any films. It is why so many sequels and reboots of previous franchises dominate the screens during the summer. Or why when one original film becomes a hit a formula is created and several rip-offs are produced. It is why you see some films released with the tag line "Made by the people who made XXXXXXXXX" even though those people had nothing to do with "XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX" other than picking up a executive producer credit because they just happened to be working at the studio. No one is obsessed with always watching the same old thing. If that was the case then Hollywood would still be producing musicals and westerns. People like trying something new. The reason why established actors, directors and franchises sell so well is that they are a known product. The audience knows what to expect. If you want them to watch something new then you have to sell it to them. Showing them a trailer works best. It gives them an idea of what is in the movie, and if the movie has something they are interested in. A good professional review raving about the film also works. I had picked up a monthly magazine released by Image because I wanted to see if any new volumes of "The Lost Films of Laurel & Hardy" were coming out on Laserdisc and wound up reading a glowing review of "Hard Boiled" being released by Criterion, calling it one of the all time greatest action films, and comparing it to James Bond ( for some reason ) and discussing the other John Woo films that were available. I had known nothing of John Woo prior to that review. But it was enough to convince me to buy "Hard Boiled", "The Killer" and "Hard Target". And from there I became a fan of John Woo and Chow Yun Fat and rediscovered Danny Lee. I knew a number of martial artists who hated Shaw films and most Chinese movies because they aren't "realistic."............They aren't willing to suspend disbelief or accept the "live action comic book" or fantasy elements of these films. No surprise there. They are martial artists. Shaw Brothers and other action films take huge liberties with martial arts. Not just the wirework and monks leaping up onto roofs. They know that it only takes a few strikes to permanently knock an opponent down, and the idea that two opponents can take dozens of blows without passing out is ridiculous. Getting a mortal wound to the chest and continuing to fight just because you tied your torn shirt around your stomach? Learning a technique that allows you to scale the wall and ceiling like Spider-man? Leaping in the air, standing on the blade of your sword midair and using it to jump higher? Moving your vital spots so that you are indestructible, unless someone nails you in your hand, which will kill you? Iron skin? Doing nothing at Shaolin for six months but scrub the toilets, yet somehow the chore miraculously teaches you a new deadly style of Kung Fu? Martial artists take their practice very serious. That is why they applaud David Carradine's portrayal in Kung Fu which, at the least, was technically accurate fighting, but dislike Jet Li's portrayal of Wong Fei-Hung and his ability to multi kick mid air. Martial arts is not just some sort of exercise or fighting skill. It is a religion. Practitioners need to exercise mind, body and soul. For them, misrepresenting martial arts on screen is almost akin to misrepresenting Christianity or Judaism. They also think once you've seen Bruce Lee's movies, you don't need to watch any other Chinese stars. Because Bruce Lee was an actual martial arts master. And he used his films to promote the Chinese martial arts. That is why they give him a pass for punching a guy through the wall and leaving his outline behind in "The Big Boss". Bruce Lee did a lot for getting people into real martial arts schools including Westerners, as well as exposing it's styles and philosophers to the rest of the world. It also boils down to martial arts not playing a major role in American history. That has always been the assumption, but not really the fact. It was more to do with something as mundane as insurance. In the early days of Hollywood, actors took extreme risks with stunts. There was no such thing as CGI, and back screen projection was still a decade away. Stunts had to be done by real humans, and the directors preferred using the actors instead of stunt doubles. For actors like Buster Keaton and Douglas Fairbanks performing your own stunts was a badge of honor. But around the time the movie industry was upgrading to sound films, studios began insuring their productions and actors. If the lead actor in a movie get injured or died midway through the shoot forcing the film to be abandoned, then the studio could recoup their expenses. Insurance companies insisted the actors do nothing dangerous. Stuntmen began taking over every action scene. But stunt men could not double for everything. If you were having a sword fight between Basil Rathbone and Errol Flynn, or a barroom brawl involving John Wayne, then those actors needed to be on screen during the fight, at the lest during the close ups. Insurance companies began demanding ultra safe choreography. Never more than three or four movements per actor during a take. Sword fighting where both actors poked at a point between them and above their heads instead of directly at each other. Bare knuckle fighting where you can tell they missed each other by a mile. This pretty much killed action and slapstick comedy, with exception to westerns and gangster films. Since guns used blanks they were considered safe. So action in Hollywood films mostly centered around either shootouts or dancing. It is this reason why Martial Arts has not worked in this country for so long. Hollywood prefers adapting foreign films rather than promoting them. Warner Brothers could have continued releasing Shaw Brothers films after the success of "Five Fingers of Death" but preferred producing their own martial arts films. The same with any other Hollywood studio. The problem was that American studios still had to abide by the insurance companies. When Jackie Chan made "The Big Brawl" and "The Protector" for Warner Brothers in the 80s, he and his team came up with lots of ideas to punch up the action scenes. The studio would not allow it. The stunts in the script had been approved by their insurance company, and if Chan were to attempt any unapproved stunt then the policy would have been nullified. This also meant that fight scenes would be as usual. Very little striking, lots of pausing between movements and fight scenes kept to a minimum. With exception to Warner Brothers, studios preferred casting established stars in martial arts films rather than importing stars from Asia. Most of the actors in American martial arts films had no prior training, and unlike today where they would be sent to a boot camp with the choreographer for a month to learn some basic screen techniques, in the 70s and 80s they were instructed on set just prior to shooting the scene. For this reason fights were kept simple. Even for stars like Chuck Norris who had martial arts training, they were still fighting actors and extras that had no training. Lame American martial arts films kept the genre from going mainstream. This left the entire burden of filling the theaters with good martial arts films to the companies that imported and distributed films from Asia. The problem was that these same companies were only interested in making a quick buck. It was cheaper to buy the distribution rights to a low budget Asian B movie than something from Shaw Brothers or Golden Harvest. Most of the films dubbed and distributed in the 70s were crap, while most of the classics were only imported and distributed as Chinese language prints to the Chinatown theaters. World Northal was a rare exception. Most of the major distributors like Cinema Shares were more interested in buying Bruce Li films because there were still people out there dumb enough to believe Li was Bruce Lee. None of these distributors had the money to promote established Asian stars. That is why for the longest time it was only Bruce Lee, Angela Mao and Jackie Chan. All three actors were promoted by Warner Brothers when they starred in their films. Distributors took advantage of the free publicity and began distributing the cheapest movies they could buy that all three had appeared in. There were no major studios promoting the Shaw Brothers stars in the United States, which is why no one heard of them until they kept showing up week after week on Black Belt Theater. Jump forward nearly three decades. There was a major publicity campaign for "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon", a movie that otherwise belonged on the art house circuit. Both Chow Yun-Fat and Michelle Yeoh had already been promoted by Hollywood studios and were familiar to the American public. Ching Pei-Pei was new to the American public, despite the fact that she had starred in several ground breaking martial arts films for Shaw Brothers in the 1960s. Sony Pictures Classics went out of their way to make her a household name in the States. Asian films were finally being promoted in the United States. Soon to follow was "House of Flying Daggers", "Curse of the Golden Flower" and other art house Asian films. Mirimax, Artisan and Deminsion were already in the midst of releasing reedited and re-dubbed HK films, a trend started with the success of "Rumble in the Bronx" Mainstream publicity made martial arts films mainstream. That is why a confusing and very Chinese "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" could end up making record breaking profits. If someone gave the Shaw Brothers films similar publicity then their films would also be successful. Martial Arts not being part of American history. Neither was the events surrounding The Three Musketeers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member silver hermit Posted June 11, 2012 Member Share Posted June 11, 2012 Out of curiosity, has anyone seen martial arts bootlegs in clamshells? Is there a precedent for that? i remember buying shaw tv print boots down on canal st. back in 96 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member dionbrother Posted June 12, 2012 Member Share Posted June 12, 2012 Problem with that argument is that it sidesteps your original argument that the Shaw Brothers films are too slow for Americans. No, they are still too slow for YOUNG Americans that make up the bulk of dvd viewing audiences. I never sidestepped anything, you are just playing a game of Mockingbird and taking what I say out of context to extend this argument and write lengthy postings. We don't need history lessons here. Most of us are deeply familiar with the genre. There are various reasons Shaw films do not appeal to most white Americans. I've only listed a few. These points have been presented by plenty of others on this board in the previous decade. Also, are we to assume that the only reason why Seagal and Norris became famous was because they were cheap knock off's of Clint Eastwood and Charles Bronson and not because they were promoted as martial artists? More specific, Chuck Norris was promoted as the guy who fought Bruce Lee They filled a void. Eastwood and Bronson were getting old. I'm old enough to remember the ads for GOOD GUYS WEAR BLACK and Norris was never promoted as the "guy who fought Bruce Lee." He was promoted as the undefeated American karate champ. Plus, he was white. Seagal's first film was a minor hit, ABOVE THE LAW. and HARD TO KILL was a sleeper hit of 1989. UNDER SIEGE was his biggest grosser, but his prior films did extremely well. Bias got him his break, but audiences liked him and he brought the genre back in 1987-1992. No matter what you think of him now, Seagal was more successful than Norris ever dreamed of. Warner Brothers had crafted a new screen persona for Chan which kept in mind that he spoke very little English. THE PROTECTOR was shelved and Warner Bros. no longer wanted to make Jackie Chan movies. It was dumped on video with little fanfare and WB no longer wanted to deal with JC or Golden Harvest. They could have released POLICE STORY or PROJECT A but figured no theaters would book movies with an all Chinese cast, dubbed or subbed. That's just the attitude theater owners had at the time. And most Americans thought of Hong Kong=cheap and stupid. No matter what poorly researched bullshit articles you read today say, it was a different time in the 80s. When Jackie Chan made "The Big Brawl" and "The Protector" for Warner Brothers in the 80s, he and his team came up with lots of ideas to punch up the action scenes. The studio would not allow it. It wasn't the studio, it was the cheapjack directors Clouse and Glickenhaus who thought they needed to make Jackie "appeal to Americans." Just as much Golden Harvest's fault as WB, contrary to what revisionist history tells you. Jackie was glad to break off from Raymond Chow in the 90s, for better or worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member So High Posted June 12, 2012 Member Share Posted June 12, 2012 I always thought the reason Shaw Bros. movies didn't do so well in America is because Americans look at them as cheese films. They don't like dubbing and constantly made fun of the how corny they were. If its subtitled its a wrap too because they use the ole I dont wanna read a movie line. Mainstream Americans that is. We here at KFC are the genre fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member dionbrother Posted June 12, 2012 Member Share Posted June 12, 2012 So High: you are right. The dubbing/subbing issue is a "damned if you, damned if you don't" trap the Shaw films fell into. Mainstream whites can't be bothered to root for non-white heroes, because they don't have to. They've had white heroes since the inception of film. Blacks and Latinos have no problem rooting for heroes of different races, because they grew up with the majority of movies lacking black and latino heroes. So believing in a Chinese hero is not a stretch for them, because they'd been rooting for Clint Eastwood or Charles Bronson since childhood. When there was a boom in black action movies in the 70s, black liberals did everything they could to shut that industry down and they did. Just ask Fred Williamson or Jim Brown. No coincidence the Shaw films had their most loyal following in black theaters. Those audiences were open-minded to rooting for Fu Sheng and Gordon Liu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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