Man, Chuck Norris is a jerk!

[Bruce]

It's also possible that people are, how shall I say, unimpressed with religious beliefs, not because they have a problem with God but because they don't see any connection between God & any of the many religions claiming to be the sole representatives of God. Not liking religion & not liking God are two totally different things.

[Guest Yi-Long]

You don't see what's insulting about calling a person's God fake? (from your earlier post)

No, I don't see how that's insulting. You are saying he is REAL, cause you believe him/her/it to be real... but there's not a single bit of evidence to support that idea, which means it's just a belief.

Now, if I say I believe in the Holy Kung Fu Koala as the deity who created heaven and earth, should I be offended if you don't? If you say that's ridiculous and it doesn't exist!?

Also, How many Gods are there? How do you know? How you do know that the God YOU believe in is THE God, and does that mean that the God the muslims and the jews believe in, is the exact same God? Or do THEY believe in a fake God!? If it's the same God, then why were they so lousy in picking their prophets?

And if a prophet would rise today, who claims he has been speaking with YOUR God, would you believe him, or would you call him a crazy idiot and lock him away in a mental institute!?

So no, I feel religion is a personal belief, and that's fine, and many people seem to benefit from believing in a higher power, and that's all great...

...but I do feel that just like you have the right to say God exists and all that, I have the same right to say he doesn't. In the end, we both don't know for sure and we probably will never know.

But I'm not offended when you tell me He exists and therefore tell me I'm wrong, so why should you be offended if I say He doesn't exist which means YOU would be wrong!?

Faith and beliefs can be paths to knowing. If I may add, all scientific discoveries started with faith in an idea.

Yes, something slips from your hands, it falls downwards, so people will think about what causes that and look for a reason behind it, and discover the pulling force coming from the Earth we now know as 'gravity'.

Just like people were standing around, looking at this big old flat world of ours, comfortably covered by a big dark blanket full of tiny holes God puts over us at night to remind us it's time to sleep(!)

We know this was all created by God, because we believed He did, we did lots of research, and we apparently found pictures of God with a hammer and his construction hat, building us a couple of nice mountains to enjoy! Evidence!

I don't disagree with your comment about abusing religion to deny others equal rights. Of course that is wrong. But let's respect those here that share the same faith and aren't doing horrible things with it.

I'm not trying to be disrespectful (and if I am, who are you to question how God made me!?), but saying I DON'T believe there IS a God really shouldn't be insulting to those who DO believe there is a God. At least not more insulting than it is to me when you tell me I'm wrong in MY belief.

You choose to be offended by it, and that's fine, but that isn't the intention.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

They're always gonna be offended, Yi Long. We, on the other hand, as agnostics, atheists, non-theist etc. have NO rights in that regard.... just let them be....

[GOLDEN DRAGON YIN-YANG]

oh well no one cares what I think

GD Y-Y

[massa_yoda]

If we have to we can move this to PMs to keep this thread from going off the rails. I feel very passionate about the things you said, though, so I'd like to respond to your comments.

No, I don't see how that's insulting. You are saying he is REAL, cause you believe him/her/it to be real... but there's not a single bit of evidence to support that idea, which means it's just a belief.

Now, if I say I believe in the Holy Kung Fu Koala as the deity who created heaven and earth, should I be offended if you don't? If you say that's ridiculous and it doesn't exist!?

Also, How many Gods are there? How do you know? How you do know that the God YOU believe in is THE God, and does that mean that the God the muslims and the jews believe in, is the exact same God? Or do THEY believe in a fake God!? If it's the same God, then why were they so lousy in picking their prophets?

The difference between your Kung Fu Koala and my God is that I have documented eyewitness accounts (aka evidence) that help back my faith. Now we can go on a whole new tangent about comparisons of scripture which I would rather avoid, but I am simply saying there is an obvious difference. I understand that to people many religions and beliefs can appear the same, but they are in fact very different and you can easily tell, through research, the problems with some due to historical innaccuracies, inconsistencies, etc.

And if a prophet would rise today, who claims he has been speaking with YOUR God, would you believe him, or would you call him a crazy idiot and lock him away in a mental institute!?

He would probably be crazy since Jesus was the last prophet of my belief system. Many people claim to be doing the work of God, but this depends on if what they say is backed up by the scriptures of my faith.

we did lots of research, and we apparently found pictures of God with a hammer and his construction hat, building us a couple of nice mountains to enjoy! Evidence!

And yet, you don't see how you're being disrespectful....

I'm not trying to be disrespectful (and if I am, who are you to question how God made me!?),

God didn't make you this way, you chose to be who you are.

at least not more insulting than it is to me when you tell me I'm wrong in MY belief.

You say you don't care what people believe, but you don't show any respect toward these beliefs. I respect your opinion and have no problem with it. I haven't actually said your belief is wrong have I? You on the other hand, go out of your way to say things like God is a fairytale (yet you also say we can't know, while saying God as 100% false, thus contradicting yourself). You don't have to say these things, but you choose to. This shows a clear lack of respect. You can say you are atheist and that's fine, I don't care, but why say all this extra stuff? Live and let live man. Of course there's nothing wrong with a respectful exchange of opinions...if it's kept respectful.

Oh, and cool stuff GOLDEN DRAGON YIN-YANG. That's what I'm talking about: study, meditation, experience. I don't want to promote my faith necessarily, just study and research.

[Guest Yi-Long]

If we have to we can move this to PMs to keep this thread from going off the rails. I feel very passionate about the things you said, though, so I'd like to respond to your comments.

The difference between your Kung Fu Koala and my God is that I have documented eyewitness accounts (aka evidence) that help back my faith. Now we can go on a whole new tangent about comparisons of scripture which I would rather avoid, but I am simply saying there is an obvious difference. I understand that to people many religions and beliefs can appear the same, but they are in fact very different and you can easily tell, through research, the problems with some due to historical innaccuracies, inconsistencies, etc.

There have been many thousands of witnesses who have come forward and swear they've been into contact with aliens as well. There have also been numerous scriptures and images been found stating 'visitors' and flying saucers' and all that.

I'm certainly not saying there aren't aliens or that we haven't been visited. In fact, I would actually think that would be more realistisc than the whole 'God' story...

However, throughout history, many many people have found ways to get a following. You tell them something they might believe, and once you have a group of them believing it, you will have a group op followers, and thus influence, and thus power.

I could go out RIGHT NOW and claim God has spoken to me. And hardly anyone will believe me. 99,9% will think I'm an absolute loony. However, 0.1% will have their doubts, they're open to listening to what I have to say. And if they LIKE what I have to say, there's a strong possibility that they will follow what I have to say. And maybe in 10 years, it will be 0.2%, and maybe in 30 years, it will be 0.3%.

And people will 'witness' what I have to say.

Have there been witnesses when God spoke to Jesus? Or when he spoke to Mohammad!? People took their word for it, right!?

Faith is something you want to believe in. You want there to be a God, you want there to be a heaven to reward you for a good life and a hell for those who deserve it. You want life to have a meaning. You want to have the answers to the question we all have, and religion provides those answers.

Throughout the ages, those religions have FORMED their story. The 4 gospels were selected from those which were deemed suitable, while others were removed and destroyed. It's because 'the church' abuses RELIGION as a means to have control. Control over people, governments, wealth, health, etc etc.

So when you tell me there's a big difference between my Kung Fu Koala deity, and your beardy old guy deity, I say you're right: the difference is about 2000 years of great PR and marketing!

Don't worry though. I have Facebook now. I can catch up!

He would probably be crazy since Jesus was the last prophet of my belief system. Many people claim to be doing the work of God, but this depends on if what they say is backed up by the scriptures of my faith.

So if Jesus was the last prophet, that would make Mohammad a fake prophet, and the islamic God a fake God, according to you and your belief system!? Right!?

However, they will say the exact same thing right back at ya. "Jesus kinda messed up and God had to make a trip back to Earth and set things straight, and Mohammad was the guy to do it!"

...and don't get me started on those jews who think both Jesus AND Muhammad was nuts, and who are still waiting for a prophet to drop by....

And yet, you don't see how you're being disrespectful....

I don't. The point was that most science is indeed started by a belief, an idea, and then they go out and research it and proof (whenever possible) why that belief is right.

There is no proof there was a God that created all this. Much less proof that it was a Christian God who did it, or a Jewish God, or an Islamic God, or a Silicon Valley iGod, or whatever.

Whenever you ask for proof, most religious people just open their arms, look around them and go: Just LOOK at all this!!! MY guy did that!!! Who else could it have been!?!?'.

God didn't make you this way, you chose to be who you are.

You think that if I could choose who I wanted to be, I would have picked this!?!? You don't know me very well, do you!? I don't even like choosing myself when I masturbate(!)

You say you don't care what people believe, but you don't show any respect toward these beliefs. I respect your opinion and have no problem with it. I haven't actually said your belief is wrong have I? You on the other hand, go out of your way to say things like God is a fairytale (yet you also say we can't know, while saying God as 100% false, thus contradicting yourself).

No, I say I BELIEVE God is a 'fairy tale', but I also say I don't know for sure. Read it back. Just because I believe something, doesn't make it true, as I've been trying to explain throughout the thread.

I BELIEVE there is no 'God' or at least not a 'God' in the way you and other religious people believe in, but I certainly don't KNOW that there isn't a God.

Believing is thinking (which is ironic in itself btw), which is different to knowing. I THINK there is no God, and I BELIEVE there is no God, but I don't KNOW if there is no God, cause there is no evidence to proof there is no God, just like there is no proof there IS a God, and just like there is no proof there is or isn't a Kung Fu Koala deity...

You don't have to say these things, but you choose to. This shows a clear lack of respect. You can say you are atheist and that's fine, I don't care, but why say all this extra stuff? Live and let live man. Of course there's nothing wrong with a respectful exchange of opinions...if it's kept respectful.

Well, the thread is about Chuck Norris, about his religion, and about his feelings about equal rights and the Bible and gays and all that.

I didn't know I wasn't allowed to pitch in MY voice when I happen to be an atheist/agnost/whatever, cause somehow it would be deemed 'disrespectful' if I say I don't believe in the things this guy says he stands for, and how that gives him a right to restrict others in their rights....!?

Seriously!?

So what Chuck says is OK when he brings religion into it to defend his views, yet when I bring religion, or my view on religion, into the discussion, that's 'not done'!? It's somehow disrespectful.

'You' (not YOU personally btw, but I'm talking about the right-wing religious nutbags you know are out there) can say gays are sinners and don't deserve equal rights because you believe your God thinks so, and that's OK, yet when I say I don't believe in that God or those views, I AM the one who is out of line!?

Sorry, but I don't think so.

Just to be clear, I like the discussion, and I have absolutely nothing against you or religion or religious people in general, and I do feel we ARE on-topic considering the news/article this thread is about, so there is certainly no intended hostility or disrespect on my end, but obviously with such different views, it's possible some people will feel offended regardless.

In that case I'm sorry. Not for what I'm saying, cause I stand behind that, but for not getting my points across in a manner that doesn't 'hurt' anyone.

[Guest Markgway]

Can't believe I'm agreeing with Yi-Long.

The end is nigh...

[Guest Yi-Long]

Can't believe I'm agreeing with Yi-Long.

The end is nigh...

Wow.... that's pretty insulting to me... .

According to the Church of Kung Fu Koala, thou shall be stoned to death by gummibears!

[DarthKato]

They're always gonna be offended, Yi Long. We, on the other hand, as agnostics, atheists, non-theist etc. have NO rights in that regard.... just let them be....

No one said that you didn't have a right to be offenend, but no one else has the right to disrespect someone's faith. When you start doing that,then how are all of you any different than the ones that insult homosexuals for their belief in who they should be with.

[massa_yoda]

There have been many thousands of witnesses who have come forward and swear they've been into contact with aliens as well. There have also been numerous scriptures and images been found stating 'visitors' and flying saucers' and all that.

I'm certainly not saying there aren't aliens or that we haven't been visited. In fact, I would actually think that would be more realistisc than the whole 'God' story...

I could go out RIGHT NOW and claim God has spoken to me. And hardly anyone will believe me. 99,9% will think I'm an absolute loony. However, 0.1% will have their doubts, they're open to listening to what I have to say. And if they LIKE what I have to say, there's a strong possibility that they will follow what I have to say. And maybe in 10 years, it will be 0.2%, and maybe in 30 years, it will be 0.3%

Yeah, I get it. I've seen The Life of Brian. I've heard this song and dance before. And I think we both can agree that this is why all scripture should be looked at with a critical eye and studied. I've been studying scripture for years, learning the original Hebrew and Greek in which it was written (okay, just a handful of words, but it still helps!) , cultural and historical contexts, author's intent, other historical documents of that era and so on.

And contrary to what you may think, this has helped my faith, not hurt it. This is why I am confident in my belief.

Have there been witnesses when God spoke to Jesus? Or when he spoke to Mohammad!? People took their word for it, right!?

Yes, there were some witnesses that heard and saw God baptize Jesus in the Spirit. But of course, this is recorded in the gospels, and if you don't believe those are accurate, then I guess we'll agree to disagree on that one.

Faith is something you want to believe in. You want there to be a God,

Likewise, atheism is something people want to believe in too. People don't want to think God is watching them, people want freedom from old ways of thinking. Sure, you could say you believe in logic and science and that alone determines your worldview, but science is still rooted in faith. The greatest question we can ask right now is how/why did the universe begin? Obviously, no one was there to observe this, which is why I think theism is different then believing in the Easter bunny or Santa Claus. We can trace the origins of stories, but not the beginning of time. Was there something else there, or did the universe create itself? If so, how could it? If I say X creates Y, I must presuppose the existence of X in order for it to bring about Y, but if I say X creates X, then what I am saying is that I must presuppose the existence of the universe in order to bring about the universe. This is logical incoherence. So, if the universe didn't create itself, what did?

Throughout the ages, those religions have FORMED their story. The 4 gospels were selected from those which were deemed suitable, while others were removed and destroyed.

The church doesn't disprove the stories. Christendom doesn't disprove Christianity.

Whenever you ask for proof, most religious people just open their arms, look around them and go: Just LOOK at all this!!! MY guy did that!!! Who else could it have been!?!?

Not the people I know, but I understand where you're coming from. I know many intelligent, rational people of faith.

You think that if I could choose who I wanted to be, I would have picked this!?!?

No no, I meant you picked your worldview freely.

yet when I say I don't believe in that God or those views, I AM the one who is out of line!?

You are more than welcome to express your view man. That isn't out of line. I felt how you expressed yourself was just not respectful...but who knows, maybe I just didn't understand you right. Words (and tone) can so easily be taken wrong on forums.

Just to be clear, I like the discussion, and I have absolutely nothing against you or religion or religious people in general

Ok cool. I have nothing against you either. I'm glad you like it. And again, I totally respect you and your opinion.

[Cognoscente]

I didn't know that Chuck was such a prolific writer.

https://www.wnd.com/author/cnorris/