Zatoichi #14, Available on Amazon again

[shaolinkng7]

Zatoichi's Pilgrimage, that long lost film in the series, at least long lost outside of Japan, is now available on Amazon on what they promise is not a bootleg DVD. From the few reviews that purchased this foreign pressed DVD, it is not a different Zatoichi episode with the wrong title, it is the same picture quality of the other releases, is all region, is anamorphic widescreen, is NTSC and it comes with proper English subtitles. Not bad at $20.

I can not say for sure that this is another scam. The same product was up for less than a week last November before Amazon switched it's status to "Not Available". Since then at least two sellers attempted to sell a bootleg version through the same page. Now the item is being sold directly through Amazon which at the least gives the buyer some sort of insurance. I took a risk on ordering one for myself, and my fingers are crossed that an actual legit copy will show up in the mail.

[tokenganjaclan]

Cool, let us know how it goes..Even if it isn't " Official" it still looks like a complete package.

I have several Japanese movies that me and Venom worked on Sub-wise and had them pressed to Dvd for my own viewing. So even a small company can make a great dvd if they have the resources...Too Bad some of the titles we worked on started being sold for profit, but I won't go into the can of worms.

Anyway, thanks for taking one for the team...

[Sambojits]

The packaging looks official at the very least. But, the important thing is that the pic quality and subtitles are on par with HVE's releases. You won't be disappointed. My only complaint was the digipak/digibook style packaging.

[daisho2004]

Merlin over@SamuraiDVD.com had subtitled this movie years ago from a remastered print with Excellent subtitles. This DVD isn't a legit one! The Katsu family never gave them the rights to this one movie which I have no idea why so to answer you question this is really just a boot from another country, if you want it pick it up from Merlin at least you know your getting the a complete movie with excellent Sub-T's and great picture quality.

[Sambojits]

I don't understand the support for Merlin. I hope I am not stepping on any toes here. How is buying from Merlin any less supportive of bootlegs? His discs are bootlegs as well. This import disc is an actual pressed disc as well and not a DVD-R. I am not sure what media Merlin uses.

[Sambojits]

On another note, where did the whole "Katsu's family owns the rights to 14" come from? Criterion have the rights to number 14 now, it is listed on their Hulu page along with the other entries previously released by HVE.

[Takuma]

On another note, where did the whole "Katsu's family owns the rights to 14" come from? Criterion have the rights to number 14 now, it is listed on their Hulu page along with the other entries previously released by HVE.

Maybe confusion with Hideo Gosha, whose family's was sitting on Hitokiri (until Wild Side managed to come up with a deal).

Wasn't the reason behind no Zatoichi 14 release that Miramax owned it but never released it on dvd (originally acquired because Tarantino had some plans on using elements from it)?

[tokenganjaclan]

I don't understand the support for Merlin. I hope I am not stepping on any toes here. How is buying from Merlin any less supportive of bootlegs? His discs are bootlegs as well. This import disc is an actual pressed disc as well and not a DVD-R. I am not sure what media Merlin uses.

I didn't wanna open a worm can, but yes they're Dvd-R's.....As far as his subs, I'm not going there...

[Vegeta84]

Maybe confusion with Hideo Gosha, whose family's was sitting on Hitokiri (until Wild Side managed to come up with a deal).

Wasn't the reason behind no Zatoichi 14 release that Miramax owned it but never released it on dvd (originally acquired because Tarantino had some plans on using elements from it)?

What is this deal you speak of in terms of Hitokiri? I've been waiting for a R1 for many years.

As for this version, it's not a R1 legit copy. Criterion owns the rights.

[Takuma]

What is this deal you speak of in terms of Hitokiri? I've been waiting for a R1 for many years.

I was talking about the (excellent) French dvd Wild Side Video put out some years ago.

[shaolinkng7]

The Miramax story is urban legend. A couple of years ago someone from Miramax had to do some damage control, and contacted a lot of blogs and websites to say that the story was false.

The Katsu family owning the film? I think that story originated with Media Blasters who attempted to obtain the rights to the film and were rebuffed. That could have meant that the Katsu estate did not want the film released, the same way the John Wayne estate kept "Hondo" off of television and VHS for years. Or it could mean that someone representing Media Blasters pissed off the Katsu estate while negotiating with them. The Katsu estate has allowed this movie to be released in Japan. And they did sell the rights to Chambara Entertainment back in the 90s. The only reason why Chambara did not release it was that they simply never got around to releasing most of the Zatoichi films they had rights to.

Criterion owning the rights? Doubt it. HVE skipped right past #14 and #16 for a reason, they did not have the rights to neither. Criterion only released the movies Janus Films had the rights to. Janus only dealt with Daiei way back when they were still in business. They did not bother negotiating with Toho or Katsu Productions. These were being released to art-house theaters, and making very little profit. It did not matter to them if they missed a few movies in the series.

AnimEigo negotiated with Toho and got the rights to the Zatoichi's they owned.

[Sambojits]

Criterion owning the rights? Doubt it.

2 of us have already told you that Criterion own the rights. You can pay to watch Pilgrimage plus all the others HVE released. They have the rights for whatever reason.

[shaolinkng7]

2 of us have already told you that Criterion own the rights. You can pay to watch Pilgrimage plus all the others HVE released. They have the rights for whatever reason.

That is streaming video, not DVD. The whole point of the writers strike a few years ago that shut down an entire television season was that writers were not compensated for online revenues. Legally online videos were not the same as DVDs, which were not legally the same as VHS, which were not legally the same as televised, which were not the same as theatrical releases. Each technology is different. Criterion may have obtained the rights to stream #14, but that does not mean they also have the right to release the same movie on home video. They would have to make separate deals for Blu-Ray and DVD. I told you why HVE never released #14 on DVD. They never had the rights to that film for home video release, and could not bother making separate deals with Toho and the Katsu estate. They already had a pre-existing distribution deal with Janus, and Janus obtained the home video rights to the films the distributed to theaters.

If HVE owns the home video distribution rights to Zatoichi #14, it makes no sense why HVE would put out a number series, release each film in numeric sequence, then skip #14 and release #15 and #17. Nor would it make sense that Criterion is refusing to release #14 when that would go against their companies ethics. Criterion is all about making sure obscure art house films get released, not shelved so no one sees them. If Criterion is holding the home video rights then I would like to see some evidence they are planning to release #14 on DVD.

[Sambojits]

Criterion owns tons of films that they have not released on any format. They only release a few titles each month and I doubt Zatoichi 14 is a big priority. They can not even be bothered to re-issue the now out of print HVE releases.

[daisho2004]

@Sambojits:

This is an ongoing subject in regards to Merlin and a few other Fansubbers. But I will give you the real deal true version. Without Merlin many many classic Samurai/Ninja films we here in the USA would never get to see them. Merlin gets remastered prints and subtitles them for us, yes sometimes it can be a little expensive but if you want to see classic Japanese movies then that's the price you will pay. Merlin offers everyone a discount if your on his mailing list. And trust me if a movie gets a legit release, I'll buy directly from that company. But when you buy from these Taiwan companies half the times the subtitles aren't good. With Merlin there always 100 accurate. There are others who scam off Merlin's hard work and sell at half the price. And they know who they are! Listen the bottom line is you have a choice you can buy from Merlin knowing what Ur getting or not. And you can hope & pray that some of these great classics will eventually get a legit release but don't count on it.

[masterofoneinchpunch]

Criterion owns tons of films that they have not released on any format. They only release a few titles each month and I doubt Zatoichi 14 is a big priority. They can not even be bothered to re-issue the now out of print HVE releases.

You can see all the HVE/Janus Zatoichi films for free on Hulu

Of course as I try to load #14 it has problems coming up. Tested Zatoichi and the Doomed Man and that came up fine.

Hulu has a lot of free films. I hate watching films on the Internet, but some of you might be interested in this.

[Vegeta84]

Criterion didn't own the rights to the 14 Zatoichi or HVE when they were released a few years ago. Criterion now owns the rights to the 14 film has for about two years. If you don't believe me, e-mail them and they will tell you.

[tokenganjaclan]

Subbing and doing a Transcribe is two different things. Just saying!!

You know I have SAT and my Japan Collection is nearly 3,000 films, and trust me about 80% are already subbed in some form. Plus anyone can grab a script off line. Even a monkey ( myself included) can drop subs over a film. You know my thought's on Merlin and Corey, They are no better then the ebay guys who are selling the films dirt cheap.

Anyone can take a Wildside Dvd and drop a script on it.

Don't get it twisted up, Those guys aren't paying sub houses to sub up a movie to get $20 off a Dvd-R.. I already proved this years ago, by taking one of Corey's screen caps of his " New and Approved" version he claimed to have subbed, but remember he had the old shot from the Tv copy next to it with the exact subs on the new print....Way to funny, He went back in time and subbed the Tv print as well...Anyway this is a dead horse...Pan Media, Corey, Merlin,ebay sellers...It's all the same..Everyone's stealing something for profit.

[daisho2004]

@tokenganjaclan: As I have stated this is an old debate but here's the big picture, I don't see anybody putting out these classic movies! So if a monkey can do it then why aren't there a whole colony of Monkey's doing it then for us to enjoy?! Like I said nobody is forcing anybody on here to buy from Merlin or Corey. You can wait forever hoping to see some of these great classic movies get a legit release which for the most part isn't going to happen or support them its pro-choice!

[Sambojits]

Just like with Anime, another reason companies won't release them legitimately is BECAUSE of the bootlegs. They see no one re-buying them. We are all just beating a dead horse anyhow.

[Takuma]

I don't see anybody putting out these classic movies!

I do! The Japanese, French etc, dvd distributors. Those are the dvds Merlin and pals are ripping and releasing under their own name. They don't have access to "prints", they just buy the official foreign dvds and rip them (and add subs).

Ok, I know you probably meant "R1" and "sources", but I just had to be a smart ass because someone would probably have misinterpreted those posts...

The topic in general is a bit more tricky in the sense that while I don't accept those bootleggers' activity, they do often produce subs, which would be very useful for people like me who always purchase the (non subbed) official releases only, but might like to add subs to those discs (which takes about 5 seconds with HTPC setup if the subscrip is correctly timed, 10 minutes if you have to fix the timings, and 13 mouse clicks if you want to burn custom dvd of your own to watch it via dvd player).

[BlackLamaFaction]

The really sad fact is that you could annihilate the bootleg market tomorrow, (the government in my country attempts to pass draconian copyright legislation every other week). However the real reason companies don't release these films is because there is not a large enough market for them to make a considerable profit. Sure they will release the work of the masters; Kurosawa, Gosha, Kobayashi, Okamoto, maybe as far as some of Kenji Misumi's most well known stuff.. Well after you spent the 2 months it takes to see all of those films then what?. Now i want to see some Tomo Uchida, Eiichi Kudo,and Masahiro Shinoda. I saw Zatoichi now I want to see Tough Guy. I can't even get my favorite samurai film ever, (Tanaka's The Betrayal) on R1. Even the majority of Gosha's work wouldn't be seen if not for the French. It's frustrating because it seems there just aren't enough of us who love these films for distributors to release all but the but the most well known titles. Most of the films I like are over 50 years old now, so why would they just all of the sudden be dug up and released on remastered DVD and Blue Ray.

[daisho2004]

@BlackLamaFaction: You seem to be the only one who understands what I'm saying here! Again do I support the Fansubbers Yes! Do you have to No! Its freedom of choice! Like BLF stated there are so many classics that will never see a legit release and I'll be honest I'm not great with computers and nor do I have to the time to mess around trying to put Subs onto movies. So again nobody is saying buy anything from Fansubbers but for People like me and many others we appreciate the hard work and the time that Merlin & CK do so I can watch these movies.

@Sambojits: And the Fansubbers are not the reason AnimEigo doesn't release these movies, its because there isn't a whole general need for these kind of movies any longer, plain & simple! People want the CGI the new stuff! This films while there classics, its not beneficial for these companies to start remastering them that is the reason AnimEigo lost the rights in the beginning to the Sleepy Eyes of Death series they were losing money on it! Look at the Lone Wolf & Cub TV series it was Great and they stopped it before I think they even finished the entire 1st. season. Samething with Sonny Chiba's Ninja series!

But again everyone has the right to there own opinions on here and I will never force my views on anyone. But don't hate People for doing something that a lot of us on here appreciate. You can buy the French release of these films whatever you choose to do. Like I've always stated when a US legit release comes out I'll buy it to support that company, until then I'll support the Fansubbers.

I Hope This End This Debate!

[shaolinkng7]

I was once friends with Merlin David. Or at least he convinced me I was. This is going back to the early 90s when his company was then called Samurai Video. Same Zatoichi logo. It was pretty easy to be friends with him. The guy gave his home number out for his business then. I forget where I got the number, probably an advertisement in the back of one of the martial arts magazines. I called because I was looking for some rare Shaw Brothers movies that were not available elsewhere, even on the bootleg market. For some unexplained reason, there was a box for "Street Gangs of Hong Kong", but the bootleggers somehow did not have the movie. So instead they got a copy of "Young Avenger" from Ocean Shores, removed the title credit, and replaced it with the new title "Street Gangs of Hong Kong: The Delinquent". ( the box had both the English dub and H.K. titles on it's front, which explains why both titles were superimposed over the video ). At the time "Street Gangs..." was one of my favorite Shaw Brothers films, and I wanted a copy. But it just was not available on the street.

Merlin sure liked to talk. What began with me asking a few questions ended up with him keeping me on the phone for a good hour, in which time he told me the only Shaw Brothers he had that were not already available on the street were the One Arm Swordsman series, "Come Drink With Me" and "Bells of Death". BUT, If I called back at a later date, he could get his hands on "Street Gangs..." as well as "The Boxer Rebellion".

He also spend a good ten minutes dissing Dragon Video. Apparently Dragon Video had sunk so low as to take a Japanese superhero movie, spray paint the box silver, and sell it to someone expecting a rare Sonny Chiba film they paid $100 for. There were other Dragon Video horror stories. And we discussed Zatoichi. I had read about the series in the Ric Meyers book, but had never seen any of the films. Merlin was the distributor of legit Zatoichi releases from Chambara Video, and he agreed they were charging too much for them. But he also was selling, from his collection, some Zatoichi's that Chambara was not releasing, including "Zatoichi meets the One Armed Swordsman". By the end of the phone call he had talked me into ordering "...Fire Festival" from his collection which was subtitled in English. I also ordered Jimmy Wang Yu's "Beach of the War Gods" which was not yet available on the street. He had another movie not available on the street, Jackie Chan's "Drunken Master", but talked me out of buying it because the one in his collection was missing the ending. He said he would be getting his hands on a complete copy of the movie in a few months, so instead I bought "The Young Master"

A few weeks later I called back, and sure enough he had landed copies of "Street Gangs..." and "Boxer Rebellion". Once again I ended up on the phone for an hour and once again I ended up buying more Zatoichi movies from his personal collection. And if I could stomach the $90 that Chambara was charging for their Zatoichi films then I would have bought one of those as well.

I called many other times. Another time to get the complete copy of "Drunken Master". Yet another to get the first two One Armed Swordsman films. And another time to get "Disciples of the 36th Chamber". Each time he talked me into buying from his personal chambara collection. I ended up buying from him all of the subtitled Zatoichi films, and then episodes from the television series ( which turns out he had in the incorrect broadcast order. ) and also some other Japanese films like "The Hidden Fortress" Each time I called he was very friendly, very eager to talk about martial arts films, kept me on the phone for close to an hour, and ended up talking me into trying Japanese cinema. Then one day I ran out of Kung Fu movies in his catalog I wanted to buy, right after I had purchase a restored version of "The Street Fighter" combining the censored New Line Cinema home video release with the cut fight scenes from the Japanese Laserdisc, and a copy of "Enter the Dragon" with a minute of footage not then available on the U.S. version, along with Zatoich TV episodes #15 and #16. I had no reason to call back, so I never did.

Was he selling me bootlegs? Yes, although he had rationalized it as a service that provided collectors with movies otherwise not available. And he was distributing the legit releases of these movies, with no worry that selling the bootlegs would kill that market. I do know this. I would never have watched a Zatoichi movie had he not talked me into buying one from his personal collection. And years later, I would have not gone out of my way to buy the legitimate released DVDs from HVE and AnimEigo, even though I had some of the same films in VHS on my shelf.

And that is the point that people miss about the bootleg market. It actually builds interest in foreign movies. Take anime. If not for the bootlegs sold at comic book conventions, where the merchants played scenes from those cartoons on television screens to show how cool or dirty they were, then there would not have been any market for them in this country. Our only exposure to the genre would be "Speed Racer", "Battle of the Planets" and other badly mangled re-edits for pre-schoolers. Bootleggers kept interest in Shaw Brothers alive when they were unavailable in any form for nearly two decades. Bootleggers got the good Jackie Chan movies onto the street, when the only legit Chan videos were from the Lo Wei era, or those two dismal Warner Brothers films. As much as we can detest Bootleggers from cutting into the profits of the legitimate distributors, if not for the bootleggers then there would be no American market for Asian films. There would be no AnimEigo or Dragon Dynasty because no market for the films they release would have been developed in this country.

And that is the double edged sword. The legit companies are benefiting from interest created by bootleggers. But they are also losing revenue to those same bootleggers. Can't exist with them, can't exist without them. I think there is a big difference between Merlin David and Ground Zero. Ground Zero is clearly in it for the money. Samurai DVD is in it because the owner loves the genre. Samurai DVD promotes Chambara. Ground Zero merely illegally repackages what already sells. But what is really important is that any true fan of martial arts will upgrade their library. They will buy bootleg if nothing else is available, and replace that bootleg with a legit release once that is available. I do not think the bootleg market is cutting into the profits of legit releases as much as everyone thinks. The real demons here are the unrealistic expectations that a fringe market should perform as well as a mainstream market.

[daisho2004]

@shaolinkng7: Well said, I cannot even add to that!