The state of classic martial arts film distributors?

[Sheng]

Originally Posted by Markgway

I invented that term.

Really ? Honestly wasn’t aware of that, blood. But then your semantic invention must have spread like wildfire! In any case, the amount of “pinkification” that I detected with my “four eyes” was a minor and pretty bearable flaw.

Originally Posted by Markgway

Were HKL discs better than anything coming out in Hong Kong? Of course. But they were often flawed. The truly great discs (Duel to the Death, Dragons Forever, etc) were sadly in a minority.We had 5.1 remixes (Warriors Two, etc), dubtitles (Heart of Dragon), cropping (Legend of a Fighter, Police Story 2, etc), pinkification (Fist of Fury, etc), incorrect language (The Big Boss, etc). Are we to ignore these flaws lest it upset label supporters? I say 'no'. I tell the truth and if it bothers anyone then don't buy. The choice is down to the individual. I won't pretend something is better than it is.

“Truly great discs”… well, I guess you might have mainly films in mind that you personally care about. From the eighty-some HKL discs on my shelf the majority is pretty damn good, even by today’s standards. And I happen to think that they ought to be picked up despite the flaws you outlined!

As you know I’m no fan of 5.1 remixes or slight cropping (as in LEGEND OF A FIGHTER – otherwise a fabulous disc that EVERYBODY should buy!!), neither of dubtitles or, uh… “pinkification”… But all these to me were rather negligible flaws (the censoring of some HKL titles I thought of as rather unforgivable though… and the horrendous rock music that they had playing during some of their interviews was a major turn-off as well. But we all have our sensitive points, I guess).

Well, and “wrong language”… I’m certainly not excited of getting served a different language as the one a film was originally shot in, but I’m probably a lil’ more tolerant if its another Chinese language that’s offered (actually I even admit that the Mandarin dub of HKL's DRAGON GATE INN wasn’t bad at all). Its still a hell of a lot better than issuing a film only in English (like DD dared to do with their DRUNKEN MASTER 2) – coz that is definitely the wrong fuckin’ language!!

As for the Canto track on THE BIG BOSS, I just picked up the new K & R Blu Ray. It has a Mandarin option too – unfortunately no Mono… Things just never seem to be perfect in this nick of the cinema world that people like us inhabit, huh?

[blue_skies]

Were HKL discs better than anything coming out in Hong Kong? Of course. But they were often flawed. The truly great discs (Duel to the Death, Dragons Forever, etc) were sadly in a minority.We had 5.1 remixes (Warriors Two, etc), dubtitles (Heart of Dragon), cropping (Legend of a Fighter, Police Story 2, etc), pinkification (Fist of Fury, etc), incorrect language (The Big Boss, etc). Are we to ignore these flaws lest it upset label supporters? I say 'no'. I tell the truth and if it bothers anyone then don't buy. The choice is down to the individual. I won't pretend something is better than it is.

.

Well I think that could be part of the problem people expecting perfection, boycotting decent releases then choosing to trade DVD –r/torrent instead. If it isn't financially viable for the company's to put the movies out there and we all lose as there's nothing being released. Let's be honest I would rather have an imperfect quality release than nothing at all, or trying to find an inferior copy.

It's mindboggling! I was really hoping for Dreadnaught since it's the one HKL I never got a hold of!!!

me too:squigglemouth:

I was looking forward to also getting warriors two, duel to the death,she shoots straight and the odd couple but somehow I suspect those titles will not be forthcoming.

edit: a big thank you to Kingofkungfu2002 for giving me his spare HK DVD of Dreadnaught:xd:

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Duel To The Death is on play.com used for 17.48 euro..... not to bad, though Warriors Two is at a whopping 49.99!

There are several new Warriors Two HKL aussie versions on ebay.co.uk.

I had to get the Aussie HKLs of Game Of Death, Knockabout and Hapkido, as they were all off the grid at the time.

[blue_skies]

Duel To The Death is on play.com used for 17.48 euro..... not to bad, though Warriors Two is at a whopping 49.99!

There are several new Warriors Two HKL aussie versions on ebay.co.uk.

I had to get the Aussie HKLs of Game Of Death, Knockabout and Hapkido, as they were all off the grid at the time.

yeah that's too expensive for me at around £17.

there is too many movies I want and not enough money! it wouldn't be so bad if things didn't go out of print and then people charge a fortune for them.

[Guest Markgway]

Really ? Honestly wasn’t aware of that, blood. But then your semantic invention must have spread like wildfire!

I thought it was snappier than "they reddened the image".

Now what'll happen is that someone will come along and say they used it 6 mins before I first did and then my claim to fame will be all but over.

slight cropping (as in LEGEND OF A FIGHTER – otherwise a fabulous disc that EVERYBODY should buy!!)

Did we see the same DVD? The cropping was more than slight (2.35 to 1.78) and they used the wrong language dub. I'm glad the film isn't a favourite so I don't have to own that crappy disc.

the censoring of some HKL titles I thought of as rather unforgivable though…

Ironic as it's one of the few flaws that wasn't their fault

Well, and “wrong language”… I’m certainly not excited of getting served a different language as the one a film was originally shot in, but I’m probably a lil’ more tolerant if its another Chinese language that’s offered

I guess I can relate to that... but only because most English dubs are so awful. I could also point out that Dragon Inn isn't the director's cut but I think that might be rubbing salt into the wound...

As for the Canto track on THE BIG BOSS, I just picked up the new K & R Blu Ray. It has a Mandarin option too – unfortunately no Mono… Things just never seem to be perfect in this nick of the cinema world that people like us inhabit, huh?

The best option is the Fox Ultimate Ed. DVD. That has Mandarin mono (though it goes out of sync for one scene IIRC). Would be nice if Fox put that version out on BD (with sync fixed of course).

[Guest Markgway]

they recently confirmed on their facebook page that they won't be bringing out Dreadnaught and I suspect that they'll not bother with similar classics but then they release crap like 1911.

WTF??????????????????????????????????????

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Why??????????????????????????????????????

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I was looking forward to also getting warriors two, duel to the death,she shoots straight and the odd couple but somehow I suspect those titles will not be forthcoming.

Yeah, well done Cine Asia for reissuing the fucking titles everyone already fucking has because they were still widely fucking available. Fucks.

I'm not on Facebook, but I think I might send an email to those cocksmokers once I've cooled down. Is there a link to where they made that comment so I can quote it?

EDIT: Found the facebook page and it won't let me view comments. A stupid 'login' prompt keeps popping up.

EDIT: Managed to 'cache' it.

[nectarsis]

Damn...and I was just looking at getting the HKL Legend of a Fighter...thanks for the info Markgway

[Killer Meteor]

If you can get HKL Legend Of A Fighter, it's worth getting to see the film, but quality isn't much better then a good Vengeance VIdeo - "remastered" perhaps but it's heavily cropped on the sides, and on the top.

Regarding HKL's pinkification, it's an example of them meddling. I'm perfectly willing to accept film prints go pink, but HKL took existing transfers and did unecessary tampering to them. If they were a company that communicated better, then we'd get the sense they'd read the criticisms and stop, but instead they took it over to Dragon Dynasty's Police Story.

Maybe if in 2001, they realised fans didn't like remixes, we wouldn't have had that awful Warriors Two DVD in 2005.

Yes, we sat through video bootlegs (even this wipper snapper had the Fist Of Unicorn where the top of the picture is at the bottom and loved it!), but why should we not have reasonable expectations of DVDs? Markgway and I are certainly not unreasonable - you won't hear me moaning if an interview is interlaced!

[David Rees]

Legend of a Fighter is a must buy, despite the cropping. The Mandarin doesn,t bother me too much. There is not another version out there and if your waiting for a better one to turn up then i hope your patient!

[Sheng]

Originally Posted by Markgway

Did we see the same DVD? The cropping was more than slight (2.35 to 1.78) and they used the wrong language dub. I'm glad the film isn't a favourite so I don't have to own that crappy disc.

Yes, the cropping is visible and the frames appear quite tight at times. If I remember correctly HKL claimed at the time that this was a necessary part of their restoration job due to damage of the print. Not sure, but I don’t think this was a lame excuse. The film looks very good though. To my absolute bewilderment you don't care about LEGEND OF A FIGHTER… I think it’s a bonafide KF classic and one of YWP’s most inspired moments! Is there any alternative to this disc? Nope. Is it realistic to wait until a perfect representation of this film hits the stores? Does the pope shit in the wood? Is a bear catholic?

‘Nuff said, if anybody who cares about this film is foolish enough to bypass the HKL disc due to cropping and “wrong” language they’re really beyond salvation.

Well, and “wrong language”… I’m certainly not excited of getting served a different language as the one a film was originally shot in, but I’m probably a lil’ more tolerant if its another Chinese language that’s offered

Originally Posted by Markgway

I guess I can relate to that... but only because most English dubs are so awful.

.

True, the vast majority of them is terrible. Which is a lil’ easier to understand if you look at how these dubs were actually produced. Dr. Craig D. Reid, author of THE ULTIMATE GUIDE TO MARTIAL ARTS MOVIES OF THE 1970’s, sheds some light on this issue. Slaving as a Kung Fu dubber himself after arriving in Taiwan in 1979 he wrote: “I would work with the same three or four voice-over artists and dub 60 (!) films per month, two per day, for $ 30 per film. Most of the times there was not a complete script, thus creating the opening for implanting weeds of extemporaneous chatter. The producers did not speak English. They just cared about that when the actor’s mouth on-screen moved, there was a voice, and when the mouth stopped, the voice stopped. We dubbers were not professional actors or translators and because we each had three to five different voices to forge per film, we quickly ran out of voices to parrot after the second film.”

Now, can anybody be really surprised about the gutter quality and the sheer unlistenability of Kung Fu dubs? One shouldn’t generalize and there are exceptions to the norm, I know, but anytime someone is clamouring for a “classic old school dub” on forums such as this I can’t help but cringe…

I believe it is also worth noting that Chinese language dubbing is and was of a much more professional standard than English language dubbing. Furthermore we should bear in mind that dubs into either (Chinese) language are usually produced simultaneously. Sometimes actors also re-dub their own dialogue. This is still not the norm though. Andy Lau for instance does about 20 percent of his vocal parts on his Mandarin movies (he started doing those from HOUSE OF FLYING DAGGERS and A WORLD WITHOUT THIEVES). 80 percent of his dialogue is spoken by his regular Mandarin “voice double” whose tone cannot be distinguished from Lau’s.

Looking into the past, Shaw Brothers translators generally had a high standard. Of course the complexities of adequately rendering Mandarin dialogue into Cantonese (or vice versa) proved challenging. And its quite telling that even though back then everything was post-synced, perceptive native speakers could always guess from the mouth movements of an actor what language he or she spoke. A lot of times both languages were spoken at sets, usually the older, more experienced actors being considerably more fluent in Mandarin (people like Yueh Hua or Ching Li, for instance). Some struggled a lot once Mandarin fell out of favour and Cantonese came in. In the wonderful new book on director Kwei Chi-Hung (THE REBEL IN THE SYSTEM) Chen Kwan Tai elaborates on his difficulties: “My deepest impression is that before THE TEAHOUSE Shaw Brothers films were shot in Mandarin, but Kwei (Chi-Hung) now demanded that we speak Cantonese (for its follow-up BIG BROTHER CHENG, 1975). That was the first Cantonese film I ever made with Shaw Brothers. Cantonese and Mandarin differ from each other in tone and rhythm. I could not get the hang of it the first two days, and had trouble saying the lines. Then I got used to it."

To sum it up, for the most part Cantonese and Putonghua (Mandarin) may not be mutually intelligible, but not only do they share the same script, they also share a lot of words and phrases, uttered with different accents though. In any event they have a hell of a lot more in common then each of them has with any Western or non-Chinese language. So its not just, as you put it, the awful quality of the English dubbing that needs to be considered here... Now, please understand that I get a little impatient if people who don’t understand a word of any Chinese language rabble-rouse endlessly about “wrong language”, pretending a Canto dub (or a Putonghua one) is just as “wrong” as getting dished up a German, Greek, English or Zulu dub. This to me is just laughably pedantic and ill-informed prattle. Period.

[Killer Meteor]

I think HKL's Legend Of A Fighter would have been better as a beaten up, but uncropped print.Honesty works best. No-one else has released it, and it'd be frustrating if the lost opportunity means we can only see a compromised version. This isn't a case of the DVD label finding that all is left is a 80's 4:3 video master, this is a label taking the movie and messing it up.

Mandarin or Cantonese? I don't see that as such a terrible thing, espcially with old school movies where the elements don't exist always. Depends really.

[Killer Meteor]

And I often feel a bad disc is a good excuse to save some money. I sold my Legend Of A Fighter in 2008 and never looked back. Even for this collector, you don't have to own EVERYTHING!

[David Rees]

Very well put Sheng.

I do get irritated at times when people say a certain film is the wrong language i.e. Mandarin instead of Cantonese. If the film was dubbed in the languages at the same time, released at the same time then surely both are considered right not wrong.

If an actor dubbed his own lines (a rare thing i think), then that may sway the opinion a bit, but to me to see, for example, Legendary Weapons of China in Mandarin i don't see it as being the " wrong language". If its a comedy then thats a different matter as the nuances of the language can make a big difference, not that i am an expert on it!

[Killer Meteor]

Very well put Sheng.

I do get irritated at times when people say a certain film is the wrong language i.e. Mandarin instead of Cantonese. If the film was dubbed in the languages at the same time, released at the same time then surely both are considered right not wrong.

!

No, if the cast is lip-syncing in Cantonese, the film is written for a Cantonese market...then it's a Cantonese film. This applies to all the Golden Harvest films, though I do accept that with Shaws it's less clear as they continued to make Mandarin films as well as Cantonese ones.

[Killer Meteor]

I don't know if this applies to Legend Of A Fighter, but this is HKL's explanation for their dumbass cropping of their other Seasonal films

"The reason we decided to re-master this movie into 16:9 format was to cater for the widest possible commercial audience. The hard-core collectors may all prefer 2:35:1, but we have found that many kids with 14, 17 and 21" television sets are amongst the most regular buyers of Jackie Chan movies.

Unfortunately, due to the tiny viewing area offered with the 2:35:1 format on smaller TV sets, we often get asked by this target audience to provide 'pan & scan' versions of our movies. As the hard-core collectors detest 'p & s' with a passion, I thought the 16:9 anamorphic/1:85:1 widescreen ratio, would be a good compromise that would appeal to both markets.

In addition, had we conformed the feature to 2:35:1 anamorphic standard, most of the nation's DVD players, are currently not equiped to handle this ratio correctly, and therefore the image would be stretched."

source - http://www.dvdfever.co.uk/reviews/snakein.shtml

[Phoenix]

I love Legend of a Fighter, the storyline is one of my absolute favourites, even if it loses a lot of pace in the middle section. OT though. I do remember seeing a 4:3 dubbed version, which was a bootleg, does anyone know who put that out and whether they used the HKL source? Someone has also mentioned at least one other version, which was subbed.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

@ KillerMeteor

That may have been true for the time, but that also dates your product pretty damn fast!

Wasn't LOAF one of the HKL that was also released on VHS.... I seem to remember some early ones came out on tape, without the extras of course??!

[Killer Meteor]

@ KillerMeteor

That may have been true for the time, but that also dates your product pretty damn fast!

Wasn't LOAF one of the HKL that was also released on VHS.... I seem to remember some early ones came out on tape, without the extras of course??!

I think it was true for the time, but other labels got around it easily enough by putting a 4:3 and an OAR version on the disc.

Yes, there was a tape.

[Killer Meteor]

I love Legend of a Fighter, the storyline is one of my absolute favourites, even if it loses a lot of pace in the middle section. OT though. I do remember seeing a 4:3 dubbed version, which was a bootleg, does anyone know who put that out and whether they used the HKL source? Someone has also mentioned at least one other version, which was subbed.

There was a US video, boot probably, at some point. I'm told it had the full English dub, which the HKL did not.

[Guest Markgway]

Yes, the cropping is visible and the frames appear quite tight at times. If I remember correctly HKL claimed at the time that this was a necessary part of their restoration job due to damage of the print. Not sure, but I don’t think this was a lame excuse.

I remember at the time hearing that the cropping was done because Brian White didn't believe that genre fans wanted films with black bars top and bottom. It was more important that the image fill the 16:9 screen than be correctly framed. That's why the first few releases were like that.

To my absolute bewilderment you don't care about LEGEND OF A FIGHTER… I think it’s a bonafide KF classic and one of YWP’s most inspired moments!

I enjoyed the character-driven first half, but the second seemed to me like a series of redundant duels. If a Cantonese 2.35 edition ever comes out I might be persuaded to revisit it. Of course if the film is a favourite I would say that the HKL is better than nothing. Like I said previously, I have substandard DVDs in my collection simply because I really want to own those films - that Universe "remaster" of Fong Sai Yuk is fucking terrible.

anytime someone is clamouring for a “classic old school dub” on forums such as this I can’t help but cringe…

Shaw Bros English dubs I could tolerate. The indie dubs are awful beyond words, however, and it's obvious that these poorly paid dubbers were taking the piss with "comedy" accents.

The fluent Mandarin speakers (Ku Feng, Ching Miao, Yang Chih-Ching, etc) often dubbed their own voices for Mandarin tracks which I like.

Now, please understand that I get a little impatient if people who don’t understand a word of any Chinese language rabble-rouse endlessly about “wrong language”, pretending a Canto dub (or a Putonghua one) is just as “wrong” as getting dished up a German, Greek, English or Zulu dub. This to me is just laughably pedantic and ill-informed prattle. Period.

You have your opinion. I have mine. We'll agree to disagree.

[Guest Markgway]

"In addition, had we conformed the feature to 2:35:1 anamorphic standard, most of the nation's DVD players, are currently not equiped to handle this ratio correctly, and therefore the image would be stretched."

Lol... what??

[Killer Meteor]

"In addition, had we conformed the feature to 2:35:1 anamorphic standard, most of the nation's DVD players, are currently not equiped to handle this ratio correctly, and therefore the image would be stretched."

Lol... what??

I get the impression Brian White never had much of a clue about movie restoration, given he seemed to behind the solorization of Police Story in 2006. He did know how to make excellent promo trailers. It takes a special talent to make Black Sheep Affair look more awesome then the Second Coming.

[Killer Meteor]

Shaw Bros English dubs I could tolerate. The indie dubs are awful beyond words, however, and it's obvious that these poorly paid dubbers were taking the piss with "comedy" accents.

The fluent Mandarin speakers (Ku Feng, Ching Miao, Yang Chih-Ching, etc) often dubbed their own voices for Mandarin tracks which I like.

.

The "but still" lot who dubbed Shaws films and many others are quite tolerable really (they'd have to be, as they seemed to dub so many movies!). Sure there's that eunuch who dubs Chen Kuan Tai in Heroes Two but I find Ted Thomas (the guy who dubbed the Scorpion in Five Venoms) voice to be a soothing reminder that at least someone knows how to not make your ears bleed. And Jackie's dubber for Snake & Crane is awesome!

The dubbers who did the Golden Harvest films (and often used the pronunciation "gung fu") are ok in funny films but often sound too much like they are taking the piss. Depends on the film.

Then there's those awful Vaughan Savidge dubs for Godfrey Ho and Fearless Hyena (ironically, a "professional" radio guy) which seem like a bad lot of Monty Python impressionists, or the drunken asians who can't speak English that dubbed films like Rage of the Master. There's bad dubbing, then there's the vocal equivilant of two skeletons copulating on a tin roof.

[Killer Meteor]

It's important to remember that Cantonese and Mandarin were originally two diverse and competing strains of cinema in HK. You rarely got films released in both versions.

A lot of our present debate often centers around Shaw films, since they continued to produce films in both languages for the different circuits (Golden Harvest and Seasonal were soley Cantonese by 1978). Chang Cheh continued to make Mandarin films for the Mandarin theatres, and very rarely were his films dubbed into Cantonese. Lau Kar Leung's Cantonese films are distinctly different in tone and rhythm from his Mandarin films. It's not just a case of them being dubbed into both, there is a definitive language in many case that can be acertained from what the markets and styles the films were MADE for, rather than just sold to.

[Guest Markgway]

IAnd that if they do re-releases HKLs, they take the trouble to correct the stretching on Magnificent Butcher and fix the OOS mono on Hapkido and Knockabout, all things one employee could do from his laptop in one day.

They're just repackaged. None of the flaws have been fixed so far. Seems like Cine Asia's contract is just to put out exactly what HKL have already done. I don't know who is deciding which titles to reissue but if it were up to me titles like Hapkido and Knockabout would've been among the first batch. I hope they don't just exhaust the Bruce and Jackie and Jet titles and then give up.