Ip Man 3 - 3D (2015)

[odioustrident]

I'm just talking about choreography I can't speak for the other filmic standards at play here.

Like you said... a standard is established by a popular film, then action directors seem to use that standard as their baseline. From there they "tack on ideas." You're confusing style and creative content, which is a common mistake. Donnie's style is the same thing he's been doing for years, his fresh ideas (creative content) are few at this point... unless he picks it up. Weapon work doesn't appear to be his strongest department.

[Guest Yi-Long]

I respect that but I beg to differ. Of course, different choreographers means different styles but in the end the most important thing is to emphasize and composite every detail in shooting a successful and memorable fight scene. Camerawork, editing, movements, sound effects, conviction, execution, pacing, music, lighting/cinematography etc. I feel Donnie has mastered these components throughout years of experiments and integration of different and improvisational techniques while many of the veterans and sub-choreographers are still stuck with the traditional methods of setting up fight scenes in HK action.

Most people who have directed Donnie's fight scenes in the past 10 years have done decently but their work haven't been as valuable (in terms of quality and replay) and memorable as Donnie's. However, if there is one flaw in Donnie's choreography it's his habit of applying the strengths of his style to his own skills mostly which would leave less for his co-stars to show off. That's slowly improving though (The Lost Bladesman, Wu Xia).

That's because there's nothing new shown in those films. It was just Woo Ping and Sammo revisiting the stuff they did 30 years ago. Ip Man is the closest but even the choreography was quite conventional. In terms of creativity alone, there are quite alot of films that CAN compete with the ones that tried to create. It's not like every single film showed something original back in those times. Whenever a film brought something original or fresh, that would be the the concept to cash on until something different was created. This pattern has played out for very long and still does.

We all want? Considering that people have different preferences, you can't really say what films people want Donnie to make. Otherwise, people wouldn't complain this much. As far as pure/action-packed MA films goes, that's going a different route nowadays. Besides, action films are just like any genre that all have a basis to progress from so I don't believe that MA films have to be filled with action all the time. That is just a sloppily misplaced concept for those that can't appreciate the strengths of storytelling. Of course, it would be a glory if more such films would be produced since the genre has indeed been lacking in genuine and proper display of real physical skills and the talents to do so. But looking at people's reactions whenever different MA films are coming out, it's easy to understand why we all are being divided in taste.

But to stick with your subject, I think Donnie has made several classics regardless if he was choreographing the action, if the films are action-packed or have stand-out moments in mostly story/acting-driven films, and if people like the films or not. Drunken Tai Chi, In The Line Of Duty 4, Tiger Cage 2, Once Upon A Time In China 2, Iron Monkey, Legend Of The Wolf, SPL, Flash Point, Ip Man 1 & 2.

I'm not looking for 'originality': I'm looking for QUALITY.

I honestly wouldn't care if a movie follows the exact same plot as Drunken Master or SITES or whatever.

A down on his luck guy finding a martial arts master, practicing, getting better and better, and in the end a good fight against an evil bastard. It works for me.

I agree with you that MA movies don't have to be action all the time. Far from it. And I never claimed so anywhere. Drunken Master 2 certainly isn't all action all the time, but it's an all-time classic.

However, what I mean with Donnie not really having made a REAL classic yet, I don't think I'm wrong. Oh, he's been in very good movies, and some are certainly borderline classics in the KF-genre (Iron Monkey, Ip Man), but considering his talent, his qualities, his freedom to do whatever he wants, etc etc, it's disappointing he hasn't really made a KF movie that will REALLY be remembered and loved as much as Drunken Master 2 or Fist of Legend or something like that.

Jackie Chan hasn't done anything worthwhile for over 15 years now, and Jet Li also lost interest in making martial arts movies, but Donnie has always been outspoken about both his love for the kung fu genre as well as his own abilities, so one would hope he would come up with a movie that can compete with the classics.

For a genre that's so criticized for 'lack of originality' and thus lazyness in writing, it's sad to see so few kung fu movies coming out following that basic simple plot and stand out through the action-scenes.

[DiP]

Like you said... a standard is established by a popular film, then action directors seem to use that standard as their baseline. From there they "tack on ideas." You're confusing style and creative content, which is a common mistake.

So what? Every choreographer has their own styles and can implement new ideas with the help of a personal style. Your explanation of dividing style and creative content is the whole point of what I meant with the other posts (I was just careless to add more). Therefore, In your definition, you might as well say that every Hong Kong choreographer is doing the same thing because of their styles of setting up choreography and injecting certain elements they like to stick with to create something new with new ideas.

Donnie's style is the same thing he's been doing for years

Nah, I don't entirely agree with that. If you compare his TV work and low-budget fare to his new stuff, you can see alot of differences and distinct feats in his current style that has been worked on, created, and used in his new stuff. It's refined, cleaner, crisp. Back in the late 90s, his style was more rushed and amateurish.

his fresh ideas (creative content) are few at this point... unless he picks it up. Weapon work doesn't appear to be his strongest department.

Donnie's been injected new ideas ever since he started choreographing so you're wrong. He's keeps expanding on that too making different type of films.

And as for weapons, he choreographed great weapon work in Dragon Tiger Gate and The Lost Bladesman. Don't like them, it's cool. Just your opinion.

[Run Run]

I've enjoyed the fights in movies he's choreographed. As far as Donnie goes, he's great. I haven't always loved the movies he's in, but I love watching him fight.

[odioustrident]

Therefore, In your definition, you might as well say that every Hong Kong choreographer is doing the same thing because of their styles of setting up choreography and injecting certain elements they like to stick with to create something new with new ideas.

All HK choreographers are different by virtue of different combinations in style and creative content.... I'm just saying Donnie isn't the complete standout some people think he is.

Nah, I don't entirely agree with that. If you compare his TV work and low-budget fare to his new stuff, you can see alot of differences and distinct feats in his current style that has been worked on, created, and used in his new stuff. It's refined, cleaner, crisp. Back in the late 90s, his style was more rushed and amateurish.

Yeah he got a lot cleaner and maybe more camera oriented with the handwork.

Donnie's been injected new ideas ever since he started choreographing so you're wrong. He's keeps expanding on that too making different type of films.

And as for weapons, he choreographed great weapon work in Dragon Tiger Gate and The Lost Bladesman. Don't like them, it's cool. Just your opinion.

His action is too brief, at least these days, to showcase what I consider a lot of good ideas. When his action scenes were a little longer (e.g. Legend of the Wolf).... things got repetitive with a great concept sprinkled in here and there.

Don't get me wrong I love Donnie! I don't think he's slowing down either.

[Drunken Monk]

Donnie Yen has been touted as the "saving grace of kung fu cinema" for years now and, sadly, I think that's a heavy burden to offload onto his shoulders. But don't get me wrong, I'm as guilty as anyone else.

In an era in which Sammo Hung's choreography has become a mere shadow of what it once was, Jackie Chan is putting out tripe, Jet Li fails to impress and even Yuen Woo Ping seems to be spreading himself thin, we all need someone to turn to. Thai action has quickly become a fad of sorts and so nobody is looking to Tony Jaa anymore. All eyes are on Donnie.

Is he capable? Absolutely. But we're looking for something new and incredible from him and, well, what is new in this genre? How easy is it to actually come up with something fresh that the fans love? Donnie borrowing heavily from MMA was certainly a nice touch but he'll always have his critics as some of us still crave a new form of modern day shapes.

You can't please everyone all the time. Given utter freedom though, I think Donnie Yen is as close to delivering what fans truly want as anyone else. Do we really think "Chinese Zodiac" is going to be the fan film everyone wants it to be? Is Sammo going to come back with something incredible? Doubtful. Donnie Yen, however, has a solid work ethic and his skills, awareness of the genre and commitment are all evident in his films. I just hope he is given the chance to shine he deserves. I just don't think it's within the Ip Man world.

[Run Run]

I'm not one who needs 'newness'. I know filmmakers, actors, etc. think about breaking new ground, and that's cool, but as a fan I don't care if a movie doesn't break new ground. I like the cliches. While I do like the more modern, cut-heavy, fight sequences, I love the old school, rhythmic, fight sequences.

I like watching Donnie fight. That's what I want. I just hope that Ip Man doesn't become a franchise that makes my eyes roll when someone brings it up.

[ShaOW!linDude]

Newness is fine. We all crave it. But I think what Yi-Long said holds true. It's really about quality.

The shaky-cam fight sequence of the Bourne franchise was newness (in a sense) but it ruined the depiction of the choreography. The result was that the technique was used as a crutch to show a fight scene and the quality of the choreography suffered. Or so it seems to me. That and hyper-editing.

Probably the major reason I loved Ip Man so much was more for the showcase of Wing Chun rather than the fictionalized depiction of the man. It was nice to have a film semi-devoted to a style of fighting. The same holds true for me in regards to Ong Bak which showcased Muay Thai, and Jet Li's The One which displayed Hsing-I and Ba Gua. We, as fans, don't really get that anymore.

I'd like to see more MA films mine the past and bring back films devoted to specific martial arts or classical weapons. That's what made the classics of the 70's and early 80's so good. Have some newer films that pit one fighting style against another. That's what I long for.

[blue_skies]

I'

If the 3rd will delve into the Wing Chun style and showcase more of it, stay away from hammy Western fighter stereotypes and any sort of "wire fu", and have about 3 killer "boss" fights.....then as far as I'm concerned, it'd be a winner.

Oh, and 3D sux!!!!!!!

That would be great if it happened but really what are the odds?

I'm not looking for 'originality': I'm looking for QUALITY.

I honestly wouldn't care if a movie follows the exact same plot as Drunken Master or SITES or whatever.

A down on his luck guy finding a martial arts master, practicing, getting better and better, and in the end a good fight against an evil bastard. It works for me.

I agree with you that MA movies don't have to be action all the time. Far from it. And I never claimed so anywhere. Drunken Master 2 certainly isn't all action all the time, but it's an all-time classic.

However, what I mean with Donnie not really having made a REAL classic yet, I don't think I'm wrong. Oh, he's been in very good movies, and some are certainly borderline classics in the KF-genre (Iron Monkey, Ip Man), but considering his talent, his qualities, his freedom to do whatever he wants, etc etc, it's disappointing he hasn't really made a KF movie that will REALLY be remembered and loved as much as Drunken Master 2 or Fist of Legend or something like that.

Jackie Chan hasn't done anything worthwhile for over 15 years now, and Jet Li also lost interest in making martial arts movies, but Donnie has always been outspoken about both his love for the kung fu genre as well as his own abilities, so one would hope he would come up with a movie that can compete with the classics.

For a genre that's so criticized for 'lack of originality' and thus lazyness in writing, it's sad to see so few kung fu movies coming out following that basic simple plot and stand out through the action-scenes.

that's a great point!

Donnie Yen has been touted as the "saving grace of kung fu cinema" for years now and, sadly, I think that's a heavy burden to offload onto his shoulders. But don't get me wrong, I'm as guilty as anyone else.

In an era in which Sammo Hung's choreography has become a mere shadow of what it once was, Jackie Chan is putting out tripe, Jet Li fails to impress and even Yuen Woo Ping seems to be spreading himself thin, we all need someone to turn to. Thai action has quickly become a fad of sorts and so nobody is looking to Tony Jaa anymore. All eyes are on Donnie.

Is he capable? Absolutely. But we're looking for something new and incredible from him and, well, what is new in this genre? How easy is it to actually come up with something fresh that the fans love? Donnie borrowing heavily from MMA was certainly a nice touch but he'll always have his critics as some of us still crave a new form of modern day shapes.

You can't please everyone all the time. Given utter freedom though, I think Donnie Yen is as close to delivering what fans truly want as anyone else. Do we really think "Chinese Zodiac" is going to be the fan film everyone wants it to be? Is Sammo going to come back with something incredible? Doubtful. Donnie Yen, however, has a solid work ethic and his skills, awareness of the genre and commitment are all evident in his films. I just hope he is given the chance to shine he deserves. I just don't think it's within the Ip Man world.

I think Donnie yen is an awesome martial arts star but I don't think he's used his talent to the greatest effect. I guess I always had high hopes for his movies but for a LONG time Yen they failed in the action Department, too much drama and not great drama either and never enough quality action/martial art fight sequences. For me Donnie Yen is a big disappointment as he never stepped up to the plate to compete with Tony Jaa. Sure he has limitations in competing in that respect , with TJ much younger, much more agile and able to do much bigger and better stunts. All Yen did was go all Hollywood, bigger, lusher pictures better movies as a whole but never stepped up making that special all-out martial arts action film, nothing that even remotely blows you away.

I think that's what's wrong with the genre it's about keeping the old recognised names in leading roles with no regards to making a film that's bigger and better than the last one, no attempt to one up whoever made the best film. It's just Hollywood, CGI, wire work, pretty boy popstars rather than martial arts talent. Thai martial arts cinema may have stalled but at least they're trying to excite, trying to deliver thrilling martial arts fights, crazy stunts and great action. That's more than Hong Kong has done in how long?

It's great to have a film with a strong story, great action, powerful acting but really at the end of the day it's all a means to an end. We all watch martial arts action cinema for the fights and thrills the rest are all a bonus. Hong Kong needs to return to the basics and get that right before worrying about all the chrome and glossiness, a return to actual talent. Real martial arts stars, talented choreographers, more time preparing and filming the martial arts sequences, stunt teams who know each other's rhythms to create fluid, fast and brutal fights that look fantastic on the screen and of course all of the talent behind the scenes lost or seemingly lost.

For me the best hopes are the small independent movies with young hungry talent trying to recreate and improve on movies from the golden age.

[Run Run]

Probably the major reason I loved Ip Man so much was more for the showcase of Wing Chun rather than the fictionalized depiction of the man. It was nice to have a film semi-devoted to a style of fighting. The same holds true for me in regards to Ong Bak which showcased Muay Thai, and Jet Li's The One which displayed Hsing-I and Ba Gua. We, as fans, don't really get that anymore.

I totally agree.

[Drunken Monk]

I think - for me, at least - Donnie became somewhat of a disappointment when he didn't ride into a new wave of martial arts cinema off the back of "Flashpoint" and I'm not a guy who particularly cares for kung fu movies with modern settings.

Who is Donnie Yen's audience now, though? Most kung fu films are made for an eastern audience, no? Are people in Hong Kong craving the wire work/CGI bullshit we have come to detest? Is Donnie looking to play up to that as I'm not sure he cares about the tiny, western fan base he and the genre have.

It's a shame that true martial arts cinema fans aren't getting what they crave. But then that's consistent with cinema, in general.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

It's funny... when I really started to get into the genre in the late 80's-early 90's I would be surprised, dissapointed and kinda pissed off when I encountered a bad movie. And usually, even the the bad movies back then had decent action, or some other entertainment value to them.

Now.... I get really surprised when I encounter a good movie in the genre. It's kinda sad to think about.

[DiP]

I can understand that some people may feel that Donnie has not made films that are remembered and favored as the most defined ones like Drunken Master 2, Fist Of Legend but I don't think that fact is relevant. Iron Monkey still get alot of love due to the fact that it got a theatrical release in the States. And let's not forget that Ip Man 1 & 2 were pretty big successes when they were released theatrically. I see everyone talking about them these days. If they can't compete with the "best" in the genre, then at least it should be acknowledged that they are getting more than enough attention to be remembered. I think it's unfair to say that only old films are always classics and remembered when new films can be recognized as much. As a one-man show (actor, director, producer, choreographer, writer etc), that's probably true though and has yet to happen.

As for Donnie and Jaa/Thai action films, Donnie doesn't need to step up and compete with stunts, acrobatics because MA films is supposed to be about the MA action while stunts/acrobatics is something on the side that doesn't need to be expanded on (it's overdone). Plus Donnie's not a trained stuntman. That said, what he has done with MA choreography alone speaks for itself even with the less quantitative numbers of quality action in his new films compared to what Jaa or Adkins have done. Maybe he's too old to feed his films with lots of action, or he likes to blend story/acting with action. Hell, he may catch us by surprise with Special Identity or some other film. Who knows. If his films are the way they are made, maybe we should start to accept it. In the end, it's two different styles and different agendas. Making action-packed MA films with lots of brutality/power, and making MA films with complexity and lots of techniques in executing all components of MA choreography.

[Run Run]

I think that the first Ip Man is a REAL classic of the genre, and is one of the best MA films ever made. The story, the acting, the fighting are fantastic.

[Drunken Monk]

I think that the first Ip Man is a REAL classic of the genre, and is one of the best MA films ever made. The story, the acting, the fighting are fantastic.

While I don't agree with "one of the best MA films ever made," I also agree that it is a classic. It feels so focused and well made compared to so many others. Sure, "Ong Bak" will go down in history as a ground breaking film, but it's nowhere near as well rounded as "Ip Man."

Yep, I think Donnie has truly made his classic, but I also think he has a lot more in him to show.

[Guest Yi-Long]

Ip Man is a classic of sorts.

It's a great Wing Chun movie, which are much too rare (kinda understandable btw considering it's focus on straight punches, as opposed to the more attractive styles (for cinema) that have high kicks and flips and rotations and all that.

So in that category in the genre, it stands out as a great movie.

However, due too a bit of a 'boring' 2nd half and a short and disappointing ending, I really wouldn't fit it in with the very best movies in the martial arts genre. It's not a GREAT KUNG-FU movie.

For me Fist of Legend (uncut version) is pretty much the PERFECT example of how a martial arts movie gets everything right: amount of fights, diversity of those fights (choreography, originality), story and characters, a PERFECT pacing throughout (never gets boring, which is why it's so fucking annoying that they still bothered to cut it in some places), and most of all, a main villain that has been built up throughout the movie, and gets dealt with in a long and very satisfying end-fight. One of the most important aspects of the genre.

... and Donnie hasn't come close to that with Ip Man.

Perhaps Legend of the Wolf could have been Donnie's great big Kung Fu movie, but ironically that was kinda ruined by his choreography, sped up fight scenes, angles and edits.

I think everyone here agrees that Donnie absolutely has the potential to deliver the ultimate kung fu movie, especially when it comes to his personal performance in the fight scenes, which is why it's disappointing that it still hasn't really happened (yet?).

[daisho2004]

I think Ip Man is a true classic for this day & Age in MA Movies. Most of us grew up on the SB classics! And that is what there are Classics! Now Jackie Chan had his high moments not wanting to be in the Shadow of Bruce Lee and I think he succeeded in doing that. Jet Li I love most of his movies I think Fearless was one of his best movies ever! Donnie I think right now is at the top of his game. I think what ruined a lot of his movies was when they sped up the fight scenes that total ruined a few of his movies for me! Vincent Zhao still has the potential to be on top but he has to get the right Director and script. He is an excellent MA IMO! Now like I said get someone fresh in there like Gareth Evans to direct I think it will take Donnie to a whole other level that we haven't seen before.

[DiP]

I'll be the first one to say that Fist Of Legend is overrated. It's not even a great remake to begins with, completely ripping off Lee's MA philosophy and displaying his JKD principles through cheap choreography. Even with the most positive thing about the film - which is the PC-themed relationship between China and Japan - Gordon Chan's sloppy direction only made the film worse. The way he composited the story/acting and action as a whole wasn't very professional and it feels quite rushed in pacing which only affected the overall mood. The action was alright but Woo Ping did much better in other films (such as Iron Monkey and Once Upon A Time In China 2) he did at the same time. The most diversity you'll ever find in the action is the last two fights with Yasuaki Kurata and Billy Chow respectively. The rest are either repetitive in execution or ruined by badly used wirework and unneeded speed-up.

Ip Man was politically incorrect in comparison and the action wasn't as great as it could've been but I think the choreography was better emphasized and executed. Plus I think Wilson Yip's directing experties makes Ip Man for a fine film experience with better acting, memorable characters, better pacing/mood, and greater production values. So in most ways, I think it surpasses Fist Of Legend.

Drunken Master 2 on the other hand is nearly perfect in any way. Direction, music, production values, acting, action etc. The action in the film beats Fist Of Legend and Ip Man combined.

[massa_yoda]

However, due too a bit of a 'boring' 2nd half and a short and disappointing ending, I really wouldn't fit it in with the very best movies in the martial arts genre. It's not a GREAT KUNG-FU movie.

Well that's true, the ending wasn't as strong as what was in the rest of the movie. Ip Man 2 had a more exciting ending than 1. However, despite a so-so ending, I think Ip Man is pretty perfect. It's got energy, plenty of fights (I thought), and like-able characters. To me, it's a classic. If they actually have a decent story to tell, I say bring on Ip Man 3! Though I will never pay for 3D.

Even with the most positive thing about the film - which is the PC-themed relationship between China and Japan - Gordon Chan's sloppy direction only made the film worse.

Wow, really? I thought his direction was pretty good for a mid-90s movie. This film has a heart and soul. It is also a classic. Though I agree about some of the action being a little below par.

[DiP]

I'm not a fan of Gordon Chan, he hit-and-miss for me. I loved Beast Cops (I give the upper credit to Dante Lam though) and enjoyed the first two Fight Back To School films as well as King Of Beggars but that's it.

[Drunken Monk]

Not to hop on a bandwagon but I, too, think "Fist of Legend," while good, is vastly overrated by fans of the genre.

[shelliegal]

Not to hop on a bandwagon but I, too, think "Fist of Legend," while good, is vastly overrated by fans of the genre.

same here. i can't really put my finger on why i don't think it's all that. it's just not a movie i'll pop into the dvd / blu ray player as fast as say, eastern condors or dragons forever.

anyway, i hope ip man 3 will be a great movie like 1 and the first half of 2.

[Run Run]

While I don't agree with "one of the best MA films ever made," I also agree that it is a classic. It feels so focused and well made compared to so many others. Sure, "Ong Bak" will go down in history as a ground breaking film, but it's nowhere near as well rounded as "Ip Man."

Yep, I think Donnie has truly made his classic, but I also think he has a lot more in him to show.

I admit that I'm probably over enthusiastic about Ip Man, but I haven't been blown away from movie like that in years. I love it as a film, in general, and not just as a MA film. I've shown it to people who aren't necessarily MA fans and they've loved it.

[blue_skies]

I admit that I'm probably over enthusiastic about Ip Man, but I haven't been blown away from movie like that in years. I love it as a film, in general, and not just as a MA film. I've shown it to people who aren't necessarily MA fans and they've loved it.

I really appreciate Ip Man as a film and for me it's biggest strength was its story, largely the martial arts didn't blow me away also. You're always going to find people who aren't martial arts fans will love a good story enjoy a film like that, plus compared to what they have seen the action is going to blow them away.

Anyway I don't imagine this sequel is going to be anything but a shameless cash in, while being unlikely to have a great storyAnd extremely unlikely to feature stunning martial arts sequences

[CatNap]

I really appreciate Ip Man as a film and for me it's biggest strength was its story, largely the martial arts didn't blow me away also. You're always going to find people who aren't martial arts fans will love a good story enjoy a film like that, plus compared to what they have seen the action is going to blow them away.

Anyway I don't imagine this sequel is going to be anything but a shameless cash in, while being unlikely to have a great storyAnd extremely unlikely to feature stunning martial arts sequences

I never cared for the "story" since must of it was made up and not true about the man. It was about as biographical as "Dragon" was of Bruce Lee. They got the names right but other than that, the film was largely fiction. "Ip Man's" success was and always will be in the fighting, which is why more time is spent on the fight choreography on an action film rather than the dialogue. I personally preferred the sequel better than the first film because anything with Sammo in it is always better....

Laura