Member Jack J Posted November 19, 2011 Member Share Posted November 19, 2011 If you aim at getting into a fist-fight all you gotta do is mention to other HK film fans that HK films have an intended audio track and the brawl will sure as hell break out! Haha. People often say it doesn't matter which dialect you listen to cos they're both the "real" one. I remember a couple of yrs back that a member mentioned to me over on ADG that all SB films have an intended dialect. But I've been trying to find reading material on this and have come up with zilch. Obviously, I'm not doubting that honourable member but I would just like some solid proof to hold onto. Is this explained in any books, in any SB biographies, or even just on a crappy Wiki page??? And just when did SB change from Mandarin to Cantonese? And why were the 1970s films in Mandarin in the first place? I seem to remember someone saying it was because Cantonese was looked down upon, even in HK. Is this correct? *My* HK films are the newer ones from the 80s, not so much the old kung fu films so I could be in the wrong here but the 70s films were mostly in Mandarin, yeah? And SB films from the 80s were in Cantonese, si? The SB action and horror films that I've watched from the 80s sure sounded better in Cantonese. The Mandarin tracks sound kinda tinny to me. But is this all bollox? Were both tracks the "right" or "intended" track??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 It's complicated. What you've asked could cover the chapter of a book. I don't know of any exact text that spells out THE FACTS... usually with Hong Kong movies evidence comes out in bits and pieces (and a lot of reading between the lines). There was no absolute change from Mandarin to Cantonese; it happened gradually over a period of about five years. Cantonese cinema fell out of favour in the mid 60s; the local language was replaced in popularity by the classier Mandarin picture (which brought a lot of mainland and Taiwanese talent to HK). By the early 70s Cantonese films were a rare beast. However, a trend reversal began in 1973 with Shaws' House of 72 Tenants, the biggest box office hit of that year. The Hui Bros followed suit and from there Cantonese comedy paved the way for the martial arts comedies of Sammo Hung and Karl Maka. By the end of the 70s Shaws could no longer ignore Cantonese and put Cantonese Kung Fu flicks into production (eg. the post 1978 output of Lau Kar-Leung). Not all Shaw films were Cantonese in the 80s - Chang Cheh and some Chu Yuan wuxia were still Mandarin. If you're looking for rules, you're bound to make mistakes. Sorry, if I have here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member John Posted November 19, 2011 Member Share Posted November 19, 2011 You can use this website to look up original theatrical run info, including language: http://ipac.hkfa.lcsd.gov.hk/ipac20/ipac.jsp?profile=#focus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted November 19, 2011 Share Posted November 19, 2011 Because the HKFA list the Hong Kong release language, on occasion the intended language is different. Like I said, there's no source that is absolute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Jack J Posted November 19, 2011 Author Member Share Posted November 19, 2011 So no fact sheets to be found, eh. Thanks for your explanation, Mark. And ditto for the link, John. But it's fair to say the modern day dramas and horror movies from SB that were made in the 80s were Cantonese, yeah? I wonder why some of them were released in Mandarin only on reg. 1 dvd, films like Seeding of a Ghost and Corpse Mania. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Xample Posted December 4, 2011 Member Share Posted December 4, 2011 If you aim at getting into a fist-fight all you gotta do is mention to other HK film fans that HK films have an intended audio track and the brawl will sure as hell break out! Haha. People often say it doesn't matter which dialect you listen to cos they're both the "real" one. I remember a couple of yrs back that a member mentioned to me over on ADG that all SB films have an intended dialect. But I've been trying to find reading material on this and have come up with zilch. Obviously, I'm not doubting that honourable member but I would just like some solid proof to hold onto. Is this explained in any books, in any SB biographies, or even just on a crappy Wiki page??? And just when did SB change from Mandarin to Cantonese? And why were the 1970s films in Mandarin in the first place? I seem to remember someone saying it was because Cantonese was looked down upon, even in HK. Is this correct? *My* HK films are the newer ones from the 80s, not so much the old kung fu films so I could be in the wrong here but the 70s films were mostly in Mandarin, yeah? And SB films from the 80s were in Cantonese, si? The SB action and horror films that I've watched from the 80s sure sounded better in Cantonese. The Mandarin tracks sound kinda tinny to me. But is this all bollox? Were both tracks the "right" or "intended" track??? I speak Mandarin which phonetically is pronounced "Poo-Tong-Wah" in Chinese. Putonghua [pinyin] translates to "Common Language" (or Language of the People). Shaw Brother movies were filmed using the Beijing dialect. There are a few major dialects of Mandarin to be spoken, the other is Guanhua, which translates to "Language of the Officials". The latter was originally spoken between the highest ranking people in China in ancient times and is quite different from Standard Mandarin which is simply referred to now as "Chinese". Then somewhere in the 60s or 70s government officials decided the common version of Mandarin which is for everyone to speak. They encouraged it more widespreadly in schools and public places as the "unifying language". This is why so many movies were filmed in Standard Mandarin as opposed to Traditional Chinese (Guanhua). All of my Shaw Brother movies that were filmed in the 70s, and even the 80s offered COMMON Mandarin/Putonghua. In fact, the only Shaw Brother movie I own that has both Cantonese and Mandarin IS Cat Vs Rat. The movie defaults to Cantonese, so I had to switch it to Mandarin when I first turned it on. I prefer putonghua , I understand it very easily and the intonations are not as strong. I believe, many of the films were shot in Mandaring/Putonghua because of state rules, which encouraged the dissimination of Mandarin as a common language. This rule is not enforced, I may add. Just "encouraged". Also, Putonghua/Standard Mandarin/Chinese is the official language of China. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member John Posted December 5, 2011 Member Share Posted December 5, 2011 All of my teachers just called it Hanyu. Some old folks brandished their canes at me once and insisted "Guoyu!". If there's anything to take away from this, it's that HK films filmed with sync sound should include both languages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member odioustrident Posted December 5, 2011 Member Share Posted December 5, 2011 What is confusing for me is when I see a mid-late 90's HK film that was intended for a Mandarin audience. What was the spoken language there if any? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member John Posted December 5, 2011 Member Share Posted December 5, 2011 It's really a case-by-case basis; you'd need to go to some kind of primary source as an indicator and even then there could be discrepancy. One example that really boggles my mind is Buddha's Palm. The IVL release contains dual audio, whereas the TF1 French release says it has "original" Mandarin audio. IIRC there were other Mandarin only releases of it as well. However, this style of movie appears unabashedly absurdly Cantonese. Further, the Cantonese audio eschews exposition that is included in the Mandarin audio, indicating that the former audience was already familiar with the story (via the 1960s Television show, which was most definitely Cantonese). But does that mean that this show was primarily intended for the local Hong Kong market? In this case, I'm not sure any conclusions about this can be fully substantiated. I can only really think of them as alternate versions of a story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted December 5, 2011 Share Posted December 5, 2011 Without checking I'm fairly sure that Buddha's Palm is a Cantonese film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Sheng Posted December 5, 2011 Member Share Posted December 5, 2011 Originally Posted by John One example that really boggles my mind is Buddha's Palm. The IVL release contains dual audio, whereas the TF1 French release says it has "original" Mandarin audio. I’m almost 100 percent sure that BUDDAH’S PALM was shot in Cantonese. Besides, I do not think that language options on Celestial DVD’s (or on those licenced overseas by the company) can necessarily be taken as an indicator that this was the language a film was originally shot in. As Markgway already pointed out, this is a highly complicated matter… Originally Posted by Markgway Not all Shaw films were Cantonese in the 80s - Chang Cheh and some Chu Yuan wuxia were still Mandarin. True dat. As for Chu Yuan’s films: from 1980 on, more precisely with CONVICT KILLER and HEROES SHED NO TEARS, he shot in Cantonese. But he reverted to Mandarin with DUEL OF THE CENTURY (1981) and PERILS OF THE SENTIMENTAL SWORDSMAN (1982). Then it was Cantonese again for the SPIRIT OF THE SWORD (1982) and ROVING SWORDSMAN (1983). Yet THE HIDDEN POWER OF THE DRAGON SABRE (from 1984, officially the final instalment of the HEAVEN SWORD & DRAGON SABRE series), his last Shaw effort, was again a Mandarin film. Chang Che basically stuck to Mandarin until 1978 (FIVE VENOMS and INVINCIBLE SHAOLIN are Canto entries in his filmography), then continued shooting in Mandarin; notable exceptions being FIVE ELEMENT NINJAS and BRAVE ARCHER & HIS MATE, both Cantonese language films. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member John Posted December 6, 2011 Member Share Posted December 6, 2011 I'm shocked! The Changster being all about manly men, is Mandarin manlier? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Can I just say that the HKFA isn't always accurate in terms of listing what a film's true language is, as they state the release language, and some Mandarin films were released in Hong Kong with a Cantonese dub (ie. some of the later Chu Yuan and Chang Cheh films Sheng mentions). The Five Venoms and Invincible Shaolin, for example, should both correctly be heard in Mandarin, but local audiences were starting to prefer watching films in their own language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member John Posted December 6, 2011 Member Share Posted December 6, 2011 I don't think anyone disputes that; not me, anyway. But then how have we come to our conclusions about Chang and Chu? What resource can I look to to assert that Chang's microwave-ready ninja have a wheat-based flavour as opposed to everyone's favourite short grain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 What resource can I look to to assert that Chang's microwave-ready ninja have a wheat-based flavour as opposed to everyone's favourite short grain? There isn't one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Sheng Posted December 6, 2011 Member Share Posted December 6, 2011 My ressources were the complete filmographies in the very detailed HKFA publications, the Chor Yuan book ("Oral History Series") and "Chang Che : A Memoir". @ Markgway Guess with "true language" you refer to the language spoken at the set. But anyway, I'm not sure if we can surmise that the HKFA filmography entries strictly refer to the language that a film was shown in HK cinemas - or if it refers to the language a film was shot in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted December 6, 2011 Share Posted December 6, 2011 Guess with "true language" you refer to the language spoken at the set. Yes. There is always an intended language which the majority of the cast will speak. Unless they can't. Eg. The Big Boss. Everyone spoke Mandarin except Bruce Lee who couldn't and so did his dialogue in Cantonese. With post-sync they figured no one would notice. Chang Cheh was a native Mandarin speaker and had anyone who could speak Mandarin use that language for filming. I think Lo Mang was the only Venom who couldn't manage. I would class these as proper Mandarin films. But to be safe it's best to go on a case by case basis as there are always anomolies. But anyway, I'm not sure if we can surmise that the HKFA filmography entries strictly refer to the language that a film was shown in HK cinemas - or if it refers to the language a film was shot in. I'm 98% sure they refer to the release language judging by the number of Mandarin and English films they list as Cantonese. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Xample Posted December 7, 2011 Member Share Posted December 7, 2011 Also wondering, the way these movies were produced is that, they were filmed WITHOUT audio which was added later? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Right. From the mid-60s to the early 90s (and even beyond in some cases) films were shot without sound. There were always rare exceptions, the odd comedy or drama here and there, but never action movies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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