Anybody else think the '78 version of Game Of Death is under rated?

[Bruce]

People talk about Bruce Lee's original version like it's the lost Holy Grail of martial arts movies, but I actually think it would've been something of a failure for him. Although I can admire the idea of trying to educate audiences about the need to be able to adapt to what you're facing, not stubbornly insist on sticking with a specific style, as a story it seemed poorly structured, & anything beyond entertainment would've gone over the heads of Bruce's audience, IMHO. Not that I wouldn't still love to see all the out-takes/alternate takes remastered & released as an extra, as well as the home movie footage of Bruce, Kareem, & James Tien shooting publicity stills, mind you!

I can't argue that the attempts at doubling the irreplaceable Little Dragon in Clouse's (& Sammo Hung's) version were sometimes laughable, particularly by today's standards, but story wise I think what they came up with was more palatable to general audiences than what Bruce had in mind, Sammo's choreagraphy was fair ("first warning") to excellent (locker room fight), John Barry's music was a nice, high quality contribution, & the supporting cast did pretty well with what they had (Colleen Camp certainly looked nice & did a good job with the closing credits song). Was it a fantastic, flawless martial arts movie? No, but how many of those are there?

Of course some of my affection for this movie is admittedly sentimental. It was the first time I saw Bruce Lee (even though I didn't realize at the time that much of what I was seeing wasn't the real deal), & the catalyst for an interest in martial arts & martial arts movies that has lasted ever since. So sure, I'm a bit biased, but even so compare it to any other martial arts movies from that time period set in present/late 1970s times, Chuck Norris' or Jim Kelly's stuff, for instance, I think it holds up pretty well.

[Guest Markgway]

Anybody else think the '78 version of Game Of Death is under rated?

Nope. Just you.

[OpiumKungFuCracker]

I love Game Of Death as well and you should see some of the fan edits of the movie, even better.... 1978 was a great year in movies and this is what Game Of Death was going up against:

Animal House

Grease

The Deer Hunter

Superman

Halloween

Midnight Express

Dawn Of The Dead

I Spit On Your Grave

Days Of Heaven

Inglorious Bastards

[ChineseSausage]

No it is not.

Four words: "You loose, Carl Miller"

[shaolin drunkard]

No way..it`s terrible piece of sh1t, only intro is great.I guess it takes complete BL to enjoy that garbage.

[greenbamboo]

raymond chow said it took them 18 months to write that script Jan Spears aka Clouse hmmm....

ni kuang could do a better one in 1 week

the irony - the story was probably similar to his last days except for bruce faking his own death.

john barry's music is cool!

[Reel Power Stunts]

I actually agree it's underrated. Yes the doubling is dodgy as hell, and yes it's got nowt to do with Bruce's vision, but it stacks up very well to other English language martial arts films of the 70's with:

1) John Barry's score

2) Those Bond-quality credit montages

3) Sammo's choreography.

4) Some top supporting actors: Gig Young, Hugh O'brien, Dean Jagger

5) General production values - dodgy editing-in of real Bruce footage (and that mirror shot) aside, the lightng, camera work, costumes, sets are up to scratch.

6) Lastly, the script! Yes it's not Hamlet...but it's full of memorable, quotable lines (see the other thread). It's cheese, but good cheese.

Is the film a masterpiece? No. Do I enjoy it? Yes. Though that may have something to do with when I discovered it - mid 80's, young, just getting into martial arts, not yet aware of Jackie, Sammo et al.

[Guest Markgway]

raymond chow said it took them 18 months to write that script Jan Spears aka Clouse hmmm....

ni kuang could do a better one in 1 week

In a week... Ni Kuang could write two scripts and still have time to wallpaper his mansion.

I 4) Some top supporting actors: Gig Young, Hugh O'brien, Dean Jagger

...well past their best...

Gig Young was struggling with alcoholism and Dean Jagger looks as though he could barely remember his lines.

[luckystars]

Underrated yes.

Cool as hell, also yes.

[soulborn]

The 78 version as an ok stand alone movie in my opinion, Like something to expect of that era.

As a Bruce Lee movie it suck big time

[Killer Meteor]

I first encountered the film in its HK incarnation, on UK TV, and this was what got me into HK cinema. Now, baring in mind that the version I saw was missing two of the three Bruce Lee fights (Chi Hon Tsoi due to a mistake, Dan Inosanto due to the BBFC), the HK version improves on the English version because:

• The Chinese dubbing makes the Bruce Lee character much more of a strong prescence.
  
  
• Replacing the terrible "pat-a-cake" fighting in the theatre with the phenomanal "Bruce" vs. Casanova Wong fight. That was the point where I went "Woah, this film is awesome!"
  
  
• The stupid carboard Bruce head is almost completely eliminated
  
  
• Dean Jagger seems like a reasonable crime boss, rather than a bizarre combination of Monty Burns, George Burns and Grandpa Simpson
  
  
• The English version has very weak sound FX (check out the crowd scenes where people are talking, but no sound is heard) and Bruce's war cries are Chris Kent going "waaah" like a moron. The HK version has much better sound design, and proper Bruce Lee war cries.
  

If I had seen the English version in 2001 instead, I probably would not be here now (and my bank balance would be a LOT better!)

[shukocarl]

I've always held the belief that Raymond Chow HAD the chance to make ONE very good movie rather than the poor GOD's 1 & 2 then we would have had the Lee footage, great titles/music some great fight footage from Tang Lung/Yuen Biao and something worthy of the Legend. What we got was one WEAK movie for western audiences and a BIZZARE (Lions, Peacocks and Flashing World Maps!) hodge podge for the east. Christ, my edit of the two makes more sense and plays better than both films!

[Res]

People talk about Bruce Lee's original version like it's the lost Holy Grail of martial arts movies, but I actually think it would've been something of a failure for him. Although I can admire the idea of trying to educate audiences about the need to be able to adapt to what you're facing, not stubbornly insist on sticking with a specific style, as a story it seemed poorly structured, & anything beyond entertainment would've gone over the heads of Bruce's audience, IMHO.

Ok, I respectfully disagree with you but here are my main points:

1 - Something of a failure? The film script was not completed so to say that it's poorly structured is somewhat unfair. Therefore, you are elaborating on an assumption that the movie would be about "educating audiences about the need to be able to adapt to what you're facing."

2 - Kinda strange to hear someone say that a a movie would've sucked yet the fight scenes taken from that movie is a movie that you love.

3 - Ever see "A Warrior's Journey," documentary? It shows the uncut fight scenes which are even more entertaining than what ended up on screen.

4 - Temple of the Tiger is arguably one of the best fight scenes ever. The 35 minute footage of those scenes via Warrior's Journey is phenomenal, perhaps the most entertaining 35 minutes of any kung fu film I have ever seen. A grand portion of that entertainment is cut from Game of Death.

Well, I think you get my point anyway, feel free to argue. It's good fun.

[Guest Markgway]

Agree with Res.

I was blown away by the 40m of restored GOD footage.

If that had been released in 1972 it would have proved so far ahead of its time it wouldn't have been funny.

The setups are near perfect with sequences as fluid as ever captured on camera.

It's an ambitious 40 mins that plays out as one elaborate scene.

But just to be fair........ I admire the work the editors did on the 1978 version - the final 11 mins worth is compiled as well as anyone could possibly have done.

[Bruce]

Simply the fact that Bruce was going to have at least 35 minutes of straight fight scenes might've been a problem; would audiences that didn't really have any indepth knowledge of martial arts or appreciation for Bruce's "lessons" want that much fighting without a breather? Keep in mind there would've been quite a bit more fighting (karate guys on the1st floor, Whang Ing Sik in there somewhere, Taky Kimura [would've liked to've seen that one] as the Praying Mantis stylist, plus at least a little more between Dan Inosanto & Chieh Yuan [lost log footage]), all pretty much back to back according to the notes in John Little's book. I'd love to see all that but as far as pacing goes for a movie it seems like too much of a good thing. Also, as far as Bruce getting his "message" across, I think he was still at a level were he was doing too much telling rather than just showing, his dialogue (the stuff about "more flexible, baby!") seems a little unnatural (not sure that's the word I'm looking for) to me.

Also, the basic story of a martial arts champion, a kidnapped sister, a team of martial artists hired to retrieve a "treasure" guarded by martial arts warriors in a tower, well, maybe if some of that were incorporated in a more mythical story set in another time (like The Silent Flute) it would've been easier to swallow. It somehow sounds more fitting for a period piece, to me. Just my opinions, of course, based only on

what little we've seen of a storyline for Bruce's Game Of Death, we'll never know what it might've been had he lived to finish it, obviously.

Anyway, I still don't think the released version of Game Of Death was nearly as bad as some like to say. And maybe, if you're inclined to believe in that sort of thing, it is what it was supposed to be, part of the Bruce Lee mystery, when you consider what seems like the foreshadowing of Brandon's tragic death by dummy bullet on the set of a movie he didn't live to finish, eventually completed with the use of doubles & a new generation of (more convincing) camera tricks. The Legend continues, eh?

[Res]

Simply the fact that Bruce was going to have at least 35 minutes of straight fight scenes might've been a problem; would audiences that didn't really have any indepth knowledge of martial arts or appreciation for Bruce's "lessons" want that much fighting without a breather? Keep in mind there would've been quite a bit more fighting (karate guys on the1st floor, Whang Ing Sik in there somewhere, Taky Kimura [would've liked to've seen that one] as the Praying Mantis stylist, plus at least a little more between Dan Inosanto & Chieh Yuan [lost log footage]), all pretty much back to back according to the notes in John Little's book.

Anyway, I still don't think the released version of Game Of Death was nearly as bad as some like to say.

Mmmm, actually all good points. First off, let me just say that although I'm not a big fan of Game of Death I love the final fight scenes becauses it's the real Bruce Lee (for the most part). Therefore, even though the rest of the movie doesn't do it for me, I still wouldn't say it's as bad as some claim so I agree with you there.

I also agree with you that from a straightforward perspective the 5 consecutive fight scenes could actually hurt the film. However, we are talking about the ever-entertaining Bruce Lee and that may have been his point, to completely change the idea of the kung fu film. Before I argue further, I have to ask if you have seen "A Warrior's Journey?" Although it's 35 minutes of fighting, it is not necessarily non-stop fighting. There are breaks in between and non-fighting entertainment. There is even actual character development, which is more than a lot of kung-fu films can say with a non-fighting story buildup sequence. I think Bruce wanted to show that character development mixed within fight sequences can be extremely useful and not boring. This is what keeps your eyes glued to the screen when watching those 35 minutes (which feels like 10 minutes). You're right, if it was 35 minutes of straight forward fighting then even I wouldn't be able to watch it (Bruce or not).

So, have you seen this footage? If not, than you can't argue against the point. If so, then were you not also entertained? In my opinion, the Game of Death as bruce envisioned it would've changed our minds on what a kung-fu film can be. Seeing that footage has already changed my mind. In fact, I would watch Warrior's Journey before watching Game of Death.

[Bruce]

I actually prefer the slightly different cut (& dub) included in the HKL two disc special edition of Game Of Death (don't remember if it's the same cut as the Japanese, is it "Airport" edition, that docu-drama that's part poorly done drama about Bruce filming GOD & partly Bruce's footage), I think Bey Logan & company had more of a clue of what they were working with than John "I know more about Bruce Lee than anybody else in the world" Little did. I looked forward to & did enjoy Bruce's footage but I think as much for it's rarity & the novelty of it's being extensive "new" Bruce Lee footage as for it's quality as an incomplete movie (I think I've enjoyed the 90 or so minutes of outtakes/alternate takes more than the properly edited together 35 or 40 minutes, you see more of the real Bruce in there, glimpses into the behind the scenes stuff). I can't honestly say I was blown away by the "Warrior's Journey" or HKL edits of Bruce's footage, maybe partly because I was more impressed with some of the action seen in the behind the scenes home movies of Bruce, Kareem, & James Tien shooting publicity photos on the set (blurry black & white footage you've probably seen on youtube).

So, yeah, I've seen that stuff, but I'd guess it didn't impress or appeal to me as much as it did you. I'd say it was pretty unique, though, at least Bruce was fairly realistically depicting fighting at different ranges with a wider variety of techniques than you'd find in most martial arts movies even now. Interesting, but I think Bruce was more charismatic in some of the fight scenes from Fist of Fury & Way of the Dragon (take the Bob Baker & Chuck Norris fights, for example); for me, Bruce's GOD fights didn't quite have the"sizzle" or "electricity" I see in some of his other fight scenes, perhaps because the GOD fights were so much longer &, as you mentioned, at the same time broken up (Bruce sitting back watching James & Chieh fight the badguys, studying their strengths & weaknesses; a tension killer?). Just different opinions, preferences I suppose.

[greenbamboo]

i think the final version by bruce would've had the pagoda fights broken up with other sequences in the movie. i can't see a straight 45 mins of 5 floors. bruce shouts down to lee kun after kareem. he was playing the role as a drunken locksmith as a comedic role in the movie. if lazenby was to come on board then i think some of his sequences may have been broken in with the pagoda finale.

[The Dragon]

i think the final version by bruce would've had the pagoda fights broken up with other sequences in the movie. i can't see a straight 45 mins of 5 floors. bruce shouts down to lee kun after kareem. he was playing the role as a drunken locksmith as a comedic role in the movie. if lazenby was to come on board then i think some of his sequences may have been broken in with the pagoda finale.

Agreed. All facts and opinions taken in, it was also to be his "Utimate Statement" on Martial Arts; basically his philosophy and concepts on Jeet Kune Do on film. He also had indicated during this time he felt the Kung Fu craze would last only about 3yrs, and was looking to move toward different roles-a huge reason he wanted to return to Hollywood.

This scene being filmed over 30yrs ago simply show his perception...

It's eerie when you really think of it...

That being said.. most of his Kung Fu films fight scenes were short, direct, and simple. Add them up and they're the equivalent of approximately 8-12 minutes of fighting in each film. GOD was to be a real MA film, like the unfilmed Silent Flute. I'm certain he would have found a way to apply "link" sequences to break up the action. He did it a few times in FOF-like when the Ching Wu class were searching for Chen while he was on the path of destruction at the Japanese Dojo, and WOTD, when the Mob were terrorizing the restaurant, and Nora was showing Tang the sights of Rome. He was a student of film, and even though WOTD was a sub par production-his first, he would have eventually gotten better, just as Woo Ping, Liu Chia Liang, Jackie Chan, Sammo, and John Woo did later, after their initial, ambitious projects.

P.S. he was right about the MA film wave-it lasted a great deal longer due to the void left by his death, with producers desperately seeking a means to replace his local and international box office success.

[luckystars]

[*]Replacing the terrible "pat-a-cake" fighting in the theatre with the phenomanal "Bruce" vs. Casanova Wong fight. That was the point where I went "Woah, this film is awesome!"

Agreed. The Glasshouse fight is phenomenal.

Wait. What cut is it in? Am I thinking of Tower of Death where we get that fight in English?

"I'm not interested in killing...I just want to prove how bad your kicks are"

[Guest Markgway]

Bruce sitting back watching James & Chieh fight the badguys, studying their strengths & weaknesses; a tension killer?

I love that element. To watch Bruce soak up what he's seeing and then use it against his opponent makes the scenes more than just beat 'em ups. Bruce was onto something special with GOD. I believe it would have been his ultimate statement on Jeet Kune Do.

[makone]

the 78 version has a special place in my heart aswell, i used to watch the last two fights every morning before school (no inosanto for us brits:sad:)

chow should have let ng see yuen do it in the first place and never bothered with clouse, that would have kicked ass.

[The Dragon]

... chow should have let ng see yuen do it in the first place and never bothered with clouse, that would have kicked ass.

I agree with that, 100%!

[greenbamboo]

go here and have a go :-

http://www.network54.com/Forum/256969/message/1314885201/How+would+you+end+The+Game+of+Death-

[Sam Seed]

It used to be my favorite Bruce Lee movie, but as I grew up, I actually found it kind of offensive. The locker room fight and the real Bruce Lee fights are my favorite parts. The music is just plain great!