Member Sheng Posted July 22, 2011 Member Share Posted July 22, 2011 As to be expected from that bunch of BBFC weirdos, here we go again: "Distributor was required to remove sight of a horse being tripped and falling dangerously. Cut made in accordance with BBFC policy on animal cruelty." There is an excellent HK Blu Ray of LOST BLADESMAN available. Anyone unwilling to put up with these idiotic British censorship regulations should boycott the UK Icon release and go for that one! I guess when it comes to modern Chinese period films its not really worth to wait for a UK release any more... its always the same! No matter what. I remember John Woo remarking that not one horse was injured during the filming of RED CLIFF - the BBFC wasn't impressed and still demanded cuts. Hopeless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member DiP Posted July 22, 2011 Member Share Posted July 22, 2011 Blah! Thanks for notifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Yi-Long Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 As to be expected from that bunch of BBFC weirdos, here we go again: "Distributor was required to remove sight of a horse being tripped and falling dangerously. Cut made in accordance with BBFC policy on animal cruelty." There is an excellent HK Blu Ray of LOST BLADESMAN available. Anyone unwilling to put up with these idiotic British censorship regulations should boycott the UK Icon release and go for that one! I guess when it comes to modern Chinese period films its not really worth to wait for a UK release any more... its always the same! No matter what. I remember John Woo remarking that not one horse was injured during the filming of RED CLIFF - the BBFC wasn't impressed and still demanded cuts. Hopeless. The western release of Red Cliff was 1 big cut anyway, so those horsetrips didn't really make a difference in my decision not to buy it.... I hate the UK hypocrisy when it comes to horsetrips. Every fucking weekend you have stuck-up twats running on horses through the fields with attackdogs to shoot and rip foxes to pieces, just for the sake of 'sport'(!) , and you are perfectly OK to kick underpaid thai stuntmen through glass windows 3 stories high to watch them hit the ground below... .... yet trip a trained horse and they go 'oooooohhh!' I also feel bad for the horses who have put in all that effort, then go bragging about their role on Facebook, only to be told by their english buddies :'sorry mate, we didn't see you in the damn movie. Guess you were cut, tosserrrrrrrrrr! WHAHAHAHA!!!!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member kingofkungfu2002 Posted July 22, 2011 Member Share Posted July 22, 2011 Cutting horse falls doesn't really bother me, so I'll be picking up the UK Bluray. We don't all have multi-region bluray players after all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Reel Power Stunts Posted July 22, 2011 Member Share Posted July 22, 2011 I hate the UK hypocrisy when it comes to horsetrips. Every fucking weekend you have stuck-up twats running on horses through the fields with attackdogs to shoot and rip foxes to pieces, just for the sake of 'sport'(!) , and you are perfectly OK to kick underpaid thai stuntmen through glass windows 3 stories high to watch them hit the ground below... .... yet trip a trained horse and they go 'oooooohhh!' ' I very respectfully take issue with this. I am no fan of the BBFC, but they are cutting what they deem are "illegal horsefalls". The BBFC do not cut all horsefalls on sight. There are horsefalls which look horrible, but yes indeed the animal is trained and unharmed - these are "legal", and appear uncensored in many films such as "Braveheart". Then you have what are deemed "illegal" horsefalls. These usually involve causing the horse to stumble through cables attached to their legs, or falling unsuspectingly into concealed dug-out holes. "Illegal" horsefalls are far more likely to result in a horse being maimed, and put down. It takes time, patience and money to train a horse to fall safely. Sadly, in some parts of the world, including China, it can seem more economical to trip an unwitting, untrained horse, and risk it being put down. I find this attitude quite repulsive, as stunt people choose their profession - film animals do not. To balance things a bit, sometimes the BBFC cut horsefalls which aren't inhumane. This is partly because the distributors/producers can't prove that the (often fast cut) horsefalls were achieved humanely. In the UK and USA, horse action is usually carefully monitored, and evidence can be provided. In China, this isn't the case. Western filmmakers have come a long way since the animal cruelty of "Charge of the Light Brigade". China still has some way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Sheng Posted July 22, 2011 Author Member Share Posted July 22, 2011 Originally Posted by Reel Power Stunts Western filmmakers have come a long way since the animal cruelty of "Charge of the Light Brigade". China still has some way to go. ... so let’s educate the Chinese then and teach them a lesson or two about what constitutes “animal cruelty”… Maybe they will understand the lesson the more often they find the “Western” (or at least British) versions of their movies censored. That what you’re trying to say in a nutshell? Sorry RPS and in all due respect: I find animal cruelty probably as repulsive as you, to make that perfectly clear. I don’t cheer if horses are falling in full gallop, if Yuen Biao rips the head off an innocent snake in OPERATION CONDOR or a cat (that was probably prodded and trained to attack) kills a live cobra in SNAKE IN THE EAGLE’S SHADOW (an absolutely crucial fight to understand what’s happening afterwards. A fight, alas, that you don’t see in the UK version). And, I might add, I was seriously taken aback when I saw cute lil' puppy dogs butchered and eaten in restaurants in Fenghuang, Western Hunan province, for the first time... But as I said and can not only exemplify by citing John Woo, there were enough cases where horsefalls were demonstrated to be harmless to the BBFC, assurances given, etc… all to no avail. So their “compulsory cuts” are intended to serve an “educational” purpose, one can’t help but surmise. BTW, a lotta stuntmen and actors in the history of (not only) HK cinema weren’t exactly told about the risk of limb or life prior to their insane stunts. I’m sure an investigation into the working conditions of these brothers would make a lotta people squirm... and clamour for "action". Or talk about real accidents as opposed to stunts: remember how Chen Sing hopped into the front window of the car in BLACK PANTHER ? The blood spilled was real, the man payed with a horribly fractured leg for it – and its all in the movie! I don't think something like this would have happened (or rather be left in a movie) on our shores... Point is we cannot impose “our” (or rather British at the moment) ethical standards on other cultures. And, sorry, irrespective of the reason, we shouldn’t find excuses to justify movie censorship (at least not for "extreme" violence, animal cruelty, political references and the like). To me it is simply indefensible, no matter how revolting (or unethical) a film is or how poor and “inhuman” the security standards for the human beings (or animals) were that participated in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member David Rees Posted July 22, 2011 Member Share Posted July 22, 2011 I have the UK Blu ray to review and having watched the first 5 minutes the painful horse fall at the beginning is cut, i dont think there were any other bad falls in the film but i cant remember as it was a while ago i watched the HK version. If this is the only cut it is about 2 seconds. The strange thing is, looking at the links below, at the BBFC it says no cuts made to the film, but the trailer was cut?..Does this mean Icon pre-cut it before submitting the full film? BBFC LOST BLASESMAN BBFC LOST BLADESMAN TRAILER Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Reel Power Stunts Posted July 22, 2011 Member Share Posted July 22, 2011 Originally Posted by Reel Power Stunts ... so let’s educate the Chinese then and teach them a lesson or two about what constitutes “animal cruelty”… Maybe they will understand the lesson the more often they find the “Western” (or at least British) versions of their movies censored. That what you’re trying to say in a nutshell? In a nutshell. No, that's not what I'm trying to say. Hi Sheng I appreciate your well written response. You have given me some things to think about. Please however, let me respond. Firstly, I was taking issue with Yi Long's suggestion that the horsefalls cut by the BBFC were by trained horses, and that this comparable somehow to a stunt performer taking a hard fall. I didn't bother to point out that fox hunting is now illegal in the UK. I was not aware of John Woo's comments regarding attempting to show the BBFC that certain "Red Cliff" falls were humane, and failing to avoid those falls being cut. If the evidence was compelling, and the cuts still carried out, I would not approve. I don't know enough about this case. What I can say is this - like you, I abhor animal cruelty. I think it was inconsistent/elitist of the BBFC to not cut the ox-killing scene in "Apocalypse Now", but to require the cuts in the films you cite. The BBFC accepted Coppolla's claiim that the killing wasn't performed for the benefit of the film...he happened to just film it. I'm not a fan of the BBFC. Nor am I fan of unnecessary cruelty to horses. I have worked as stunt person in China, Hong Kong, and elsewhere. I have certainly learned a lot about stunts from the Chinese. I can also attest that I've seen first hand through shooting in Spain and the Middle East, that cruel, dangerous horse action is unnecessary. The best horsemasters I've worked with (who have achieved the most dramatic, impressive work) have been those who have shown the greatest degree of empathy with the horses. I don't agree with actors or stuntpeople being unwittingly put in danger, either. Stunt coordinators should never "surprise" the performers. However, I think there's a fundamental difference between a mentally stable, adult professional choosing to perform a stunt, and a horse being whipped into gallop, not knowing that attached to its legs are steel cables, which when pulled taught, will cause it to fall, possible breaking it's legs, leading to it being put down. I don't think something like this would have happened (or rather be left in a movie) on our shores... I'm not so sure of that. Footage of non-lethal stunt accidents is visible in "Goldeneye", "First Blood" and the UK TV series "Cracker" (to name a few). Am I saying I like censorship? No. Do I usually agree with the BBFC. No! Do I think it's necessary to injure horses for exciting action scenes? No. Is this a western or British thing? Perhaps... but I remember when I lived in HK, a film was cut there because live mice were set alight in one scene. Clearly this is an emotive issue, and not everyone will end up agreeing. I'm glad we can discuss/debate these things here without flaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member thehangman Posted July 22, 2011 Member Share Posted July 22, 2011 I dont like seeing Animals get hurt,but you can be sure they were sometimes things look worse then they are,i know Asian films dont tend to regard animals to highly,look at all the slaughtered chickens! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Sheng Posted July 22, 2011 Author Member Share Posted July 22, 2011 @ Reel Power Stunts Thanks for your thoughtful, clarifying response. What I think this boils down to is that my or your personal ethical standards, my or your (or anybody else's) personal abhorrance of “animal cruelty” should never serve as a pretext for censorship. Period. I mean, we all have a choice, do we? if I find animal cruelty or more specifically horsefalls incredibly revolting and totally unacceptable I should stay away from all those modern day, pan-Chinese Wuxia pictures. If I find ritual dissing or belligerent threats towards gay people totally disturbing I shouldn’t listen to dancehall reggae. If excessive blood-letting and graphic violence make me throw up I shouldn’t fuck with Chang Che’s movies. Simple. No board of censors should make that decision for me and rule how many buckets of blood are allowed to flow (or how much verbal violence directed at a sexual minority is permissible, for that matter). And if they’re presumptuous enough to attempt that, the minimum I can do is to point out that qualitatively good, alternative, uncut issues of a particular movie are also available and should be the prefered choice. On the other hand your “mice example” is quite pertinent, I think. What British, what Chinese, what German, what Scandinavian censors cut is quite different and depends strongly on cultural sensitivities (or also political and moral “crime should never pay!” ones in the case of Mainland Chinese censors). I do remember the premiere of one of the most gruesome movies I’ve ever seen, T.F. Mou’s MEN BEHIND THE SUN at the Berlin filmfest almost two decades ago and I still vividly recall people leaving the cinema in droves. The main reaction was: “why allow something like this to be shown, this needs to be outlawed immidiately!” Me? I found those open calls for censorship shockingly disturbing! Another example…Do I care to see explicitly violent rape scenes in movies ? Er… no, not really. But I did order an uncut copy of Sammo’s IRON FISTED MONK immidiately after I realized that my HKL was cut. Hope you get my drift… Again, this is really not about us agreeing that animal cruelty is repulsive and, er, “wrong”, because animals can’t make choices as opposed to human beings. Its simply about the fact that to me the freedom of art and the freedom of expression is an absolutely sacrosant matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Reel Power Stunts Posted July 22, 2011 Member Share Posted July 22, 2011 Hello Sheng Great, thoughtful reply. Forgive me mods if I'm going off topic, but I think another thing worth clarifying is the actual role of the BBFC. To repeat, I'm not a fan of censorship and as I grew up in the 1980s and 90s found it very annoying that many of the films I wanted to watch were cut. I found the BBFC's apparent inconsistencies in their decisions often laughable, and I found they seemed to project a middle-class paranoia ("It's ok for me to watch this in a foreign film...but not for working class people in dubbed form) about the Great Unwashed. I think the BBFC really hit the big time in the 1980s with the Video Recordings Act. It now is very much a business. Having an interest in the subject, I recently read the memoirs of former BBFC head John Trevelyan, "What the Censor Saw". He explained that originally, the BBFC (which is not a government body) was set up to protect the early British film industry. As a self-regulatory body, it was there to prevent heavy-handed politicians banning cinemas outright or imprisoning distributors etc. To bring this back to the topic of horse falls. The BBFC doesn't cut them simply because some British people find them distasteful. It is an offence under the Cinematograph Films (Animals) Act of 1937 to "exhibit to the public, or supply to any person for public exhibition...any cinematograph film (whether produced in Great Britain or elsewhere) if in connection with the production of the film any scene represented in the film was organised or directed in such a way as to involve the cruel infliction of pain or terror on any animal or the cruel goading of any animal to fury". http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Edw8and1Geo6/1/59 The BBFC certainly can be criticised for how they choose to interpret this old bit of law, but one might argue that they are "protecting" distributors by requesting cuts to certain horse action, as if they don't they could be prosecuted. If you object to the BBFC cuts to animal action, perhaps it's a change in UK law, not BBFC policy you are after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member blue_skies Posted July 23, 2011 Member Share Posted July 23, 2011 While I would prefer my movies completely uncut I can't say that I'm bothered to lose a couple of seconds of potential animal cruelty to horses or other animals. I basically agree with comments by reel power stunts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 The strange thing is, looking at the links below, at the BBFC it says no cuts made to the film, but the trailer was cut?..Does this mean Icon pre-cut it before submitting the full film? Almost certainly. If the distributor knows in advance that cuts will be required (as evidenced by the trailer) they will make the film or video cut accordingly. The BBFC aren't always sure if a horse fall is illegal, they just go by opinion, and if evidence to the contrary isn't forthcoming, err on the side of caution with compulsory cuts. If opinions (usually courtesy of different examiners) are revised or if evidence is supplied to support safety compliance then cuts can and will be waived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator KUNG FU BOB Posted July 23, 2011 Administrator Share Posted July 23, 2011 My two cents... I also abhor animal cruelty. When I watched THE LOST BLADESMAN (which I loved) and I saw the first big horse fall I thought two things. 1. That looked awesome! 2. I sure hope that horse is okay, because that was one of the most brutal horse falls I've ever seen. I think these stunts should be captured only if the animal's saftey is put first. I really can't stand censorship of films, but in this case the BBFC at least seem to have had the right intentions- if we refuse to show these stunts unless they're performed under the proper conditions, perhaps it will work as a preventative measure against dangerous stunts being done to as many animals. That being said- at this point it's already done and commited to film. Personally, I will certainly only buy the Bluray where this scene is intact. And one more thing... Lately I've posted much less than in past years. One of the main reasons is because I've found that there's been a disturbing trend towards a lack of respect, honor, and general brotherhood/sisterhood/humanity between some members exchanges. Differences of opinion are a good thing. We learn as we communicate with others to understand their varied opinions. But it often seems on the internet that people feel no need to treat others with any compassion and prefer to verbally assault those who's opinions do not match their own. It's sad that the plus-side of us being able to easily communicate with fellow fans from all over the world is often soured by the down-side of people acting so mean spirited, negative, and brutally critical of one another. People, just because someone can't reach out and smack you in the face for being ridiculously rude doesn't mean you should behave that way. I've met a whole bunch of wonderful, kind-hearted, generous, beautiful people here and have formed some incredible friendships. I hope that more people like these friends start finding their way onto this forum and that some of these nasty instigators find another place to spew their venom. The world has enough misery. The horrible tragedy of the mass murderer going ballistic in Norway is splashhed across the news. It would be nice to come to this forum to escape a bit and BS with other Asian film fans... just to have some fun discussions without any childish drama. Anyway... I've now climbed off of my little soap box. I actually mentioned these feelings as I was so impressed (relieved) to read the above thread. Two people with varying views behaving like adults, gentleman, et. I learned from each of their responses to one another, and enjoyed reading this thread. Bravo. Good to know there are still people with differing opinions that don't need to resort to name calling and childish nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 I've met a whole bunch of wonderful, kind-hearted, generous, beautiful people here and have formed some incredible friendships. Aw, shucks! You did mean me, right?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member massa_yoda Posted July 23, 2011 Member Share Posted July 23, 2011 there's been a disturbing trend towards a lack of respect, honor, and general brotherhood/sisterhood/humanity between some members exchanges. Differences of opinion are a good thing. We learn as we communicate with others to understand their varied opinions. Very well said. I feel I have been guilty of this and often reflect about how I could have communicated better with others. What we have here in this forum is an amazing thing. And this has been a good and informative thread! I haven't seen The Lost Bladesman yet, but I am looking forward to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator KUNG FU BOB Posted July 23, 2011 Administrator Share Posted July 23, 2011 Aw, shucks! You did mean me, right?? Well... LOL I can definitely say that you've always been nice to me. Very well said. I feel I have been guilty of this and often reflect about how I could have communicated better with others. What we have here in this forum is an amazing thing. And this has been a good and informative thread! I haven't seen The Lost Bladesman yet, but I am looking forward to it. Cool. If my words caused even one person to have a moment of self reflection regarding their behavior, then that's great. A wise person once told me " Always behave as if your mother or God, or someone you have great respect for can see and hear what you do and say." Though personally, I would add "... except in the bedroom" to that statement ... I do think it makes a lot of sense. So if someone writes "I've always thought that KILLER METEORS was way better than DRUNKEN MASTER 2", though your initial thought may be "Your a daft twat!", a more reasonable response (that wouldn't make your Mom frown) would be "Though I don't share your opinion, I'd certainly be curious to hear your reasons why you feel that way." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member The Dragon Posted July 23, 2011 Member Share Posted July 23, 2011 Well... LOL I can definitely say that you've always been nice to me. Cool. If my words caused even one person to have a moment of self reflection regarding their behavior, then that's great. A wise person once told me " Always behave as if your mother or God, or someone you have great respect for can see and hear what you do and say." Though personally, I would add "... except in the bedroom" to that statement ... I do think it makes a lot of sense. So if someone writes "I've always thought that KILLER METEORS was way better than DRUNKEN MASTER 2", though your initial thought may be "Your a daft twat!", a more reasonable response (that wouldn't make your Mom frown) would be "Though I don't share your opinion, I'd certainly be curious to hear your reasons why you feel that way." Thanks for referring to me as wise KFB! I get that a lot. (Just Kidding!) I do agree with your statement and have lived by that credo. Contrary to popular opinion it does matter how one represents whether they're in the shadows or the light.. Character plays a tremendous role in our travels, though we not always acknowledge or feel it necessary. You have always had a kind word to say, even under dire circumstances for others, and I take my hat off to you for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator KUNG FU BOB Posted July 23, 2011 Administrator Share Posted July 23, 2011 Thanks for referring to me as wise KFB! I get that a lot. (Just Kidding!) Of course. Otherwise I was afraid you would write mean things about me on the internet! Contrary to popular opinion it does matter how one represents whether they're in the shadows or the light.. Character plays a tremendous role in our travels, though we not always acknowledge or feel it necessary. Well put bro! You have always had a kind word to say, even under dire circumstances for others, and I take my hat off to you for that. Thanks man. I try my best to play nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Sheng Posted July 23, 2011 Author Member Share Posted July 23, 2011 Originally posted by Reel Power Stunts If you object to the BBFC cuts to animal action, perhaps it's a change in UK law, not BBFC policy you are after. If you wanna put it this way, yes. What I’d like to add here from my side of the pond (or the channel) is that despite some of the BBFC’s laughable inconsistencies, whims and oddities, at least most of the time they appear somewhat clear and predictable about their decisions – at least compared to the German FSK, who enforce the butchering of films in the name of “youth protection”. Or by justifying blatant censorship with that most rubbery and insidious of paragraphs in the German Penal Code, § 131 (“glorification of violence”). Maybe living in this neck of the woods for most of my life contributed to my paranoia of film and music censorship... Originally posted by Kung Fu Bob I sure hope that horse is okay, because that was one of the most brutal horse falls I've ever seen. Have you seen the horse salto in BODYGUARDS & ASSASSINS ? They actually didn’t leave it in the movie, but it can be seen in the bonus footage of Mega Star’s truly fantastic special edition BD. Looks “terrific”, but… Originally posted by Kung Fu Bob I actually mentioned these feelings as I was so impressed (relieved) to read the above thread. Two people with varying views behaving like adults, gentleman, et. I learned from each of their responses to one another, and enjoyed reading this thread. Thanks for the kind words, KFB. I also wish that what are obviously clear-cut differences of opinion could be debated more often as calmly and respectfully on this board as I was able to with Reel Power Stunts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Reel Power Stunts Posted July 23, 2011 Member Share Posted July 23, 2011 Kung Fu Bob, thanks for your words. I think these forums are pretty special, as too many places on the web can be elitist, or just rude. Generally, I think the folks here are happy to help a stranger identify a film from their childhood, or recommend a "noob" movies they might enjoy. When forums become places for knowledge pi$$ing contests, or personal insults it's just a big turn off for a lot of contributors. I like that KFC's truly are discussion forums. If Shing or I had jumped on the defensive, or resorted to put downs, I doubt I would have come to the conclusion that we probably agree on more than we disagree. Bob, Sheng you are gents. If someone does think "Killer Meteors" is better than "DM2", I wanna hear why! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member ShaOW!linDude Posted July 23, 2011 Member Share Posted July 23, 2011 If someone does think "Killer Meteors" is better than "DM2", I wanna hear why! I've never seen it but I assume it's 'cause it has meteors and they'll kill you, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member thehangman Posted July 23, 2011 Member Share Posted July 23, 2011 Theres a fair few horse trips in Shaolin aswell,so im sure that will be cut on uk release aswell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Reel Power Stunts Posted July 23, 2011 Member Share Posted July 23, 2011 Theres a fair few horse trips in Shaolin aswell,so im sure that will be cut on uk release aswell according to the BBFC website, 7 secs were cut: "This work was cut. The cut(s) were Compulsory. To obtain this category cuts of 0m 7s were required. Details of cuts below may contain spoilers of plot details. Show details » Cuts were required to remove scenes of animal cruelty, in this case horses being tripped and made to fall dangerously. Cuts made in accordance with BBFC Guidelines and policy." apparently some cuts were substituted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Sheng Posted July 24, 2011 Author Member Share Posted July 24, 2011 Originally Posted by thehangman Theres a fair few horse trips in Shaolin aswell,so im sure that will be cut on uk release aswell Well yes, it was. And I did sum up my ill feelings on that matter in another thread too... http://kungfucinema.com/forums/showthread.php?p=167798 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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