Do we MA fans expect too much from DVD/Blu Ray presentations?

[blue_skies]

The reason that I am asking this is that for a long time now I keep reading over and over negative comments about this DVD or that DVD not being good enough. With complaints from dubtitles, to original mono, to insignificant cuts made to the film or the picture quality has a pinkish tint or whatever. Before I say anything else I should add that in an ideal world I would like everything to be just so. But all things being equal on balance I think we have been spoiled with some very good presentations for a genre that isn't selling by the bucket load.

Clearly Cine Asia releasing Hong Kong Legends DVDs again is fantastic news for those who missed out the last time. Yet people are moaning that they are releasing the movie's as they were originally presented by Hong Kong Legends. These DVDs may not be perfect but I have been watching a few DVD movie's from The Joy Sales Legendary Collection and a VCD of Dreadnaught recently, I don't think people realise how lucky we are. Generally speaking the picture quality, sound quality, quality of subtitles (even dubtitles) of the average Hong Kong Legends/Dragon Dynasty DVD releases are just so much better and makes the experience of watching these movies so much more enjoyable.

Now I'm sure there are many here who have longer memories than me of watching martial-arts with terrible non-anamorphic DVDs with terrible subtitles, that in themselves needed translating to make sense or going back to awful VHS copies before these films were restored and bad dubs, or even further back to some really shady bootlegs and paying ALOT for the privilege. As I said I don't go that far back but I think sometimes people forget how far forward the presentation of these movies have come. We've seen the likes of Hong Kong Legends go bankrupt demonstrating that there isn't the money being made trying to put out these movies with generally limited appeal..

The question is have we become too spoiled and too picky in the search for the perfect presentation of a particular film? It seems to be a catch 22 where people boycott a particular DVD because of some small flaw, which sees the distributor losing money and in turn put in less money and effort into future releases. I'm not suggesting support a DVD like The Enforcer where dragon dynasty didn't even bother to include an original language soundtrack. But when you look at, say, their release of Jackie Chan's Supercop that while sadly cut is so much better than the awful Dimension release previously available.

I just wonder if people continuing to not support these releases, especially in such perilous economic times, whether there will be any companies left distributing these titles. And those that do return to really shoddy presentations. Personally I would rather have a flawed Hong Kong Legends equivalent than what passes for my DVD release of Midnight Angels 3.

Discuss.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

I agree with everything you say. Im sick of the whiners. Sometimes there are very legitimate gripes, and I am aware that in some instances the companies are just lazy and/or ignorant, and/or cheap, so they put out an inferior product, when a decent one was well within their capability, if only they had put forth a little more effort.

Personally I love all my HKL, DD, IVL etc. with some exceptions of course. The DD enforcer for an example.... that is just straight up lazyness!

[Guest Yi-Long]

It's very simple: I want my movies uncut and subbed and in acceptable video-audio-quality.

That's it. That's all.

It doesn't have to be the best transfer in the world. It doesn't have to be some kind of fucked up 5.1 remix. It doesn't have to have a dub. It doesn't have to have any extras.

Just the movie, uncut, subbed.

Now, if they somehow manage to fuck up that small and simple task, then I really don't care if they go out of business or whatever.

[OpiumKungFuCracker]

Fantastic thread blues_skies

[Killer Meteor]

It's very simple: I want my movies uncut and subbed and in acceptable video-audio-quality.

That's it. That's all.

It doesn't have to be the best transfer in the world. It doesn't have to be some kind of fucked up 5.1 remix. It doesn't have to have a dub. It doesn't have to have any extras.

Just the movie, uncut, subbed.

Now, if they somehow manage to fuck up that small and simple task, then I really don't care if they go out of business or whatever.

Yes, I feel the same. I'm well aware of the state of the actual prints, but too often the discs are let down by unnecessary tampering, which DOESN'T seem to affect non-kung fu films.

I mean, there's not really a decent DVD of DRUNKEN MASTER, POLICE STORY, DRUNKEN MASTER II, THE BIG BOSS etc...nothing that does the mininum of a reasonable video transfer, reasonable sound mix, original aspect ratio, etc...

Lest anyone think I'm overly picky, there is a fine DVD of 7 GRANDMASTERS!

[blue_skies]

It's very simple: I want my movies uncut and subbed and in acceptable video-audio-quality.

That's it. That's all.

It doesn't have to be the best transfer in the world. It doesn't have to be some kind of fucked up 5.1 remix. It doesn't have to have a dub. It doesn't have to have any extras.

Just the movie, uncut, subbed.

Now, if they somehow manage to fuck up that small and simple task, then I really don't care if they go out of business or whatever.

But that's where I believe you're fundamentally wrong. Taking Hong Kong Legends as an example while some of their releases weren't perfect others were superb. When a company like that goes under the movie's go out of print, meaning you either pay obscene amounts of money for a copy, completely miss out or you end up buying an inferior copy from elsewhere.

How does that help anyone?

Just by their availability allows people to see these films who probably wouldn't otherwise. A bigger audience then makes more releases more financially viable. And as much as Hong Kong Legends were fans and put a lot of care and attention into these releases, they are a business and needs to make money to carry on.

Obviously I would prefer that movie's are uncut but a release with a decent picture, sound, subbed etc is favourable to nothing whatsoever in my opinion anyway.

Fantastic thread blues_skies

thanks OKFC

[Guest Yi-Long]

Yes, I feel the same. I'm well aware of the state of the actual prints, but too often the discs are let down by unnecessary tampering, which DOESN'T seem to affect non-kung fu films.

I mean, there's not really a decent DVD of DRUNKEN MASTER, POLICE STORY, DRUNKEN MASTER II, THE BIG BOSS etc...nothing that does the mininum of a reasonable video transfer, reasonable sound mix, original aspect ratio, etc...

Lest anyone think I'm overly picky, there is a fine DVD of 7 GRANDMASTERS!

Exactly. Often a release is fucked up by CHOICE or 'incompetence', instead of by a lack of proper material.

I really don't mind a release being slightly cropped or having scratch-marks or whatever. I do mind a release having altered audio (be it a 5.1 remix (some HKL-releases), or a new added soundtrack (Ong-Bak), or not having the correct aspect-ratio (like I said, I don't mind SLIGHTLY cropped, but when a movie goes from 2.35:1 to 1.66:1 or worse, I obviously DO mind...), or being cut/censored in any way.

When I go to McDonald's I don't expect a perfect meal, but I sure as hell don't want them to spit on my burger either....

[Killer Meteor]

What makes a bad DVD for me?

Non anamorphic widescreen - when nearly all TVs are 16:9, DVDs should meet the mininum criteria

Poor standards conversions - PAL-NTSC for the majority of Shaw DVDs. Makes the picture look unecssarily blurry

Bad remixing - usually when the fight sounds are replaced with new sounds. Fortune Star is especially guilty of this.

Cropping - a little bit is ok, but look at HKL's DRUNKEN MASTER. Yuck!

Cuts - am OK if its due to age (THE BIG BOSS comes to mind) but when its Sony or Weinstein removing footage - no sale.

Lack of original language - again, I'm fine picking up a 70s grindhouse print on dvd. But I dislike the fact that no DVD of THE BIG BOSS has the original Mandarin track with the original score. And before you say it does...

Out of sync audio - never really encountered this prior to the weird machinations of Fortune Star. But boy, it is so ANNOYING!!!

[Killer Meteor]

And yes, its great the films are out there. But if the disc is not up to scratch, then I don't buy it. Whether people thinking like me has an effect on sales, I don't know. But I doubt the market relies a lot on casual buyers, and also, a lot of us want to upgrade our crappy late-90s tapes, VCDs, laserdiscs, DVDs...but what's the point if the disc is shoddy.

I still pick up DVDs of blurry, cropped kung fu movies - such as the Vengeance video lot. Why? That's usually it for the title, and I buy the disc knowing full well what I'm going to get (usually!)

[OpiumKungFuCracker]

I wouldn't give an arm and a leg for any movie that's for sure, unless it's Michelle yeoh sex tape, then I'm willing to bid anything....

[Guest Yi-Long]

But that's where I believe you're fundamentally wrong. Taking Hong Kong Legends as an example while some of their releases weren't perfect others were superb. When a company like that goes under the movie's go out of print, meaning you either pay obscene amounts of money for a copy, completely miss out or you end up buying an inferior copy from elsewhere.

How does that help anyone?

Just by their availability allows people to see these films who probably wouldn't otherwise. A bigger audience then makes more releases more financially viable. And as much as Hong Kong Legends were fans and put a lot of care and attention into these releases, they are a business and needs to make money to carry on.

Obviously I would prefer that movie's are uncut but a release with a decent picture, sound, subbed etc is favourable to nothing whatsoever in my opinion anyway.

thanks OKFC

I understand your point, but HKL made some really bad decisions and that's why they went bust. First of all the released a few too many flawed releases. The fanboys MIGHT pick those up regardless, and there will also be a couple of people who don't KNOW and pick them up, but many fanboys are in the internet and will warn eachother about a mediocre release.

Also, they released a bunch of great classics, but also a whole bunch of mediocre movies hardly anyone cared about. Not even the 'fanboys'. They kept teasing us with stuff like Tiger Cage 2 and whatever, yet released shit like Naked Weapon and such. That's not really smart business. I'm guessing they were obliged to do so by contract or whatever, but that would just have been bad bargaining by them. Fans are not gonna spend their money on movies JUST BECAUSE they're 'asian'. The movies have to be good as well!

And in the end, they went for high-def DVD's or whatever their marketing-term was and tried selling them without any extras and for full price. With BR already on the market and films that had a high bit-rate but weren't actually HD, I'm guessing many people just waited for a price-drop or for these movies to be released on BR eventually. I know I pretty much stopped buying DVD's because of a fear I would have to double-dip once a BR-release would come out.

So the reason HKL failed is not because we are whiney, but because they kept making bad decisions. Poor releases of good movies, too many releases of bad movies, and insisting on a high price for movies not many people are interested in and who chose to just wait for a price-drop or HD-release later on...

[Killer Meteor]

But that's where I believe you're fundamentally wrong. Taking Hong Kong Legends as an example while some of their releases weren't perfect others were superb. When a company like that goes under the movie's go out of print, meaning you either pay obscene amounts of money for a copy, completely miss out or you end up buying an inferior copy from elsewhere.

How does that help anyone?

Well, me for one, I was able to sell off all the poor HKL DVDs and make a nice profit!

Seriously, I think HKL went under due to the lack of interest from the general public and retailers. A lot of the reviews you would find were very nice, but often made no mention of the messed up flaws a fair few of their discs suffered from.

Since then well, a lot of the US and HK DVDs of the Golden Harvest films suffer from bad remixing, and out of sync mono tracks - due to no-one giving a damn. The US Shaw Brothers releases are mostly fine, aside from those released by Image, but again, there is a lack of quality control that makes me nervous everytime I get a disc.

And none of these problems seem to occur with releases of 60s/70s Japanese movies!

[Guest Markgway]

Do we MA fans expect too much from DVD/Blu Ray presentations?

No.

Lest anyone think I'm overly picky, there is a fine DVD of 7 GRANDMASTERS!

It's interlaced though.

[Killer Meteor]

And in the end, they went for high-def DVD's or whatever their marketing-term was and tried selling them without any extras and for full price. With BR already on the market and films that had a high bit-rate but weren't actually HD, I'm guessing many people just waited for a price-drop or for these movies to be released on BR eventually. I know I pretty much stopped buying DVD's because of a fear I would have to double-dip once a BR-release would come out.

.

I avoided a lot of those, as the vast majority of them had bad remixes only. And the ones I did pick up, they had proper mono, but it was out of sync!!!

[Killer Meteor]

No.

It's interlaced though.

I can never tell, my DVD player does a great conversion job - don't ask me how, though!

[Guest Markgway]

I can never tell, my DVD player does a great conversion job - don't ask me how, though!

It was obvious on my setup.

Otherwise it's a fine disc.

[Guest Yi-Long]

Also, and I'm speaking purely for myself with this.....

...because there were so damn many POOR releases of asian movies (and still are), it completely negated any kind of impulse-buying from me.

So whenever I would see a DVD/BR of an asian movie in the shop, my first impression would be: "I believe this could be a good/great movie and I'd love to buy it!"

... which was then immediately followed by my brain shouting: "...but I bet they fucked it up again somehow, so I'd better check some reviews online when I get home!"

So very very often movies I was interested in buying, didn't get bought because of a poor reputation when it comes to the way they are often treated and released here in the west!

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

That I can agree with. I did the same too, and still do.

[blue_skies]

Out of sync audio - never really encountered this prior to the weird machinations of Fortune Star. But boy, it is so ANNOYING!!!

Can't you adjust the synch with your DVD player/amplifier?

[Killer Meteor]

Can't you adjust the synch with your DVD player/amplifier?

Not on my player, and really, I shouldn't have to.

[blue_skies]

Not on my player, and really, I shouldn't have to.

Agreed but it's an option available if/when you uprade player or surround sound amp that has the feature.

[Killer Meteor]

Agreed but it's an option available if/when you uprade player or surround sound amp that has the feature.

Yes, but often the sound comes and goes out of sync during the movie.

[blue_skies]

Yes, but often the sound comes and goes out of sync during the movie.

oh

[Sheng]

Originally Posted by blue_skies

I don't think people realise how lucky we are. Generally speaking the picture quality, sound quality, quality of subtitles (even dubtitles) of the average Hong Kong Legends/Dragon Dynasty DVD releases are just so much better and makes the experience of watching these movies so much more enjoyable.

Agreed, generally spoken… I myself bought almost all DD releases and about eighty-some percent of all HKL titles, sometimes slapping big money on the table (or rather transfering it to someone’s online account!) if I missed them in the first place… And I even knowingly lapped up cut HKL titles like OUTLAW BROTHERS, because no other available release came (or comes!) close…

So yes, irrespective of "dub-titles", "cropping", "pinkyfication", "interlacing", "frame-cuttings" and what the fuck else I’m exceedingly grateful for the often pioneering work of the likes of HKL, DD and Celestial...

OK, so where am I coming from? Let’s just say I remember the days when I went to a CINEMA to watch A BETTER TOMORROW 1 and was happy to be presented with an English dubbed VHS copy IN THE THEATRE because that was the only way to see it then. Back in those bad ol’ days I had a small-ass TV set and a ton of blurry-as-to-give-you-eye-cancer VHS copies (originals were financially out of my reach!). Days when you had to arrange yourself with the shittiest presentation imaginable, because this was often

the only way to see a friggin’ KF classic.

Well, I don't miss those days one bit and I'm truly glad that in the Here & Now this kind of extreme tolerance level needs no longer be exhibited! And I mean, why should we exempt Companies from criticism that fling subpar discs on the market? For instance, if a film is cut should we refrain from sayin’ this loud and critically (and not point potential buyers to alternative releases if they exist), just because twenty years ago censorship of MA films was even more severe?

I also do not subscribe to the condescending notion that quality standards for MA home releases are "not so important" and can be lower as those of any other given genre. Maybe a particular disc would have made most of us happy only five years ago - but in the age of HD and super-sized flat-screens and measured by today’s technical standards it simply doesn’t cut it no mo’. And that needs to be pointed out on a board like this. Nothing to do with “whining”, TWC… (besides I hate nit-picking whiners too )

[ShaOW!linDude]

I don't get/understand all the technical stuff that many of you do and I'm grateful for that --- both that I don't get into it and a lot of you do. Thus I know there are those of you who can steer me in the proper direction should I need it.

Flubbed dub syncs, scratchy transfers, strange sub translations, etc......that's all part of the experience and the fun to me.

Really only a couple of things get my back up:

(1) Movies released in a FS format when they had a proper theatrical WS release. Example: THE OCTAGON. Apparently the only dvd copies of this out are all FS and transferred from a vhs copy. Why?

(2) Deleted scenes. Why can't they just be incorporated into the film at its dvd release? Now I'm not talking about movies that have, like, a dozen deleted scenes. But if it has 3 - 4, stick 'em in their respective places in the film. Example: MERANTAU. The few deleted scenes of this movie should've been blended into it, especially the only cut fight scene. Some dvd releases used to offer both the theatrical release and the extended/unrated/DC version. Then the companies got crafty. Sorry, getting off track here. All I'm saying is that if the effort is going to be made to give us the stuff we missed out on, then make the effort to put it in its proper place in the context of the film.

Other than that......I take what I can get.