Member odioustrident Posted June 14, 2011 Member Share Posted June 14, 2011 This whole torture porn thing is really appealing to a mainstream audience, very few "genre fans" in the margins seem to follow this stuff. Most people I know who have seen Human Centipede are not horror fans of any kind. Its almost become a sort of sensation in the US. A ban could keep this kind of dumb shit from blowing up, which is fine by me regardless of what ideals it might run against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Takuma Posted June 14, 2011 Member Share Posted June 14, 2011 Absolutely, I simply don't understand why anyone would gain pleasure from watching a movie where someone gets off from sexually abusing his victims in a variety of sickening and violent manners. Why should one gain pleasure from it? I thought this was supposed to be an extereme horror movie that does its best to scare you and make you feel uncomfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Apanblod Posted June 15, 2011 Member Share Posted June 15, 2011 Why should one gain pleasure from it? I thought this was supposed to be an extereme horror movie that does its best to scare you and make you feel uncomfortable. I saw the first installment the other day, and all I can say is, it's not particularly extreme, scary or uncomfortable, at all. Sure, the premise of the movie sounds appalling, but what horror movie doesn't? It was mostly unintentionally funny, and that actually made it way better than I thought it was going to be, and my two friends thought so as well. Trust me, if you're scared by this movie as an adult, you've got some pretty tender nerves. I've seen Kung Fu movies that scared me ten times more than The Human Centipede ever did, heck, the ghost-in-the-mirror-scene and the vampire-fight in the haunted house from Encounters of the Spooky Kind are more scary, no kidding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Torture porn is not scary. That's not it's purpose. It's purpose is to disgust. That's not my idea of entertainment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator One Armed Boxer Posted June 15, 2011 Moderator Share Posted June 15, 2011 Why should one gain pleasure from it? I thought this was supposed to be an extereme horror movie that does its best to scare you and make you feel uncomfortable. Which kind of brings me back to the original point. Does making something which is obviously so repulsive and vile, based on the descripton given, then defending it by saying that it's supposed to be repulsive and vile, really provide justification for the scenes being discussed? I saw the first installment the other day, and all I can say is, it's not particularly extreme, scary or uncomfortable, at all. Sure, the premise of the movie sounds appalling, but what horror movie doesn't? This appears to be the overall general opinion on the original, even the BBFC had no problem with it, their statement very much echoing your own words - Although the concept of the film was undoubtedly tasteless and disgusting it was a relatively traditional and conventional horror film and the Board concluded that it was not in breach of our Guidelines at '18'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Takuma Posted June 15, 2011 Member Share Posted June 15, 2011 Torture porn is not scary. That's not it's purpose. It's purpose is to disgust. That's not my idea of entertainment. But that doesn't make you God and give you the right to tell how other people should experience it. Grotesque was called torture porn, yet it was one of the scaries films I've ever seen. Definitely up there with The Exorcist, The Thing, Shutter Island, and Rubber's Lover (the no.1 scariest film would, however, be Noroi, also by Grotesque director Koji Shiraishi). Which kind of brings me back to the original point. Does making something which is obviously so repulsive and vile, based on the descripton given, then defending it by saying that it's supposed to be repulsive and vile, really provide justification for the scenes being discussed? To be honest, I find it strange people take movies so seriously. Sure, they're supposed to kick you in the balls a few times when you're sitting in the theater, and this is exactly what a good horror movie does - creates a safe illusion of danger for 90 minutes. But why should anyone do anything but laugh at it afterwards? After all, it was just a bunch of actors goofing around with ketchup effects. I'm always amused when I think how ridiculous it must have looked like at the sets when they were filming those scenes and trying hard not to laugh. Ok, I understand that there may be are some dumbfucks who actually have to be protected from these films, but when intelligent people on film forums accuse them on moral grounds... sounds a bit silly to me. Aren't there bigger problems in this world to worry about than some silly horror movies... EDIT: I'm perhaps slightly contradicting myself here. Horror movies have always been a sort of mirror of reality and people's fears. In the 60's we had radiation turning people into zombies, and other external threats (cold war), in the 90's we had ordinary kids turning slasher killers, in the 2000's we got tortute porn (USA torturing prisoners in Middle East anyone?). So horror movies are hugely interesting, sometimes unintentially (because many of them are exploitation movies, and hence exploit current trends and fears), and deserve to be analyzed. But they're still just movies, and mirrors. I doubt breaking or banning the mirrors will solve the problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 But that doesn't make you God and give you the right to tell how other people should experience it. No, but I have my own opinions on the kind of people who watch and enjoy them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Son Of A Gun Posted June 15, 2011 Member Share Posted June 15, 2011 I saw the first film on tv recently. The part where the dude has to poo in the girl's mouth wasn't very realistic because in reality she would have continuously vomited and vomited and with no way of the vomit getting out, she would have eventually choked or drowned. Instead she just made a few ugly faces and swallowed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Takuma Posted June 15, 2011 Member Share Posted June 15, 2011 No, but I have my own opinions on the kind of people who watch and enjoy them. My grandmother has her opinions on the kind of people who watch and enjoy kung fu movies. Such senseless violence and sadism. Gotta be a bunch of violence loving psychos the whole bunch of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member odioustrident Posted June 15, 2011 Member Share Posted June 15, 2011 Again.... the people that have made these films popular are less "out there" than the average serious kung fu fan. The purpose of watching them lies more as a conversation piece or novelty; yes there might be some kind of visceral experience people get out of watching every Saw sequel, but those are not part of the main core of viewers. I really think these films fall outside most other genres and sub-genres we have in terms of how we define entertainment value. I'm ok with them not being supported, but I don't think they only appeal to the sickos out there either. Most shock films take the philiosophy behind porno and try to make it mainstream, but they only interested us genre fans in the context of history. I'm always happy to distinguish between genre fans and the people who get a kick out of sexuality being subverted. I'd like to push the latter to the margins as far as I can, but they seem to be the public face of anime, scifi, horror and even martial arts film fandom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 My grandmother has her opinions on the kind of people who watch and enjoy kung fu movies. Such senseless violence and sadism. Gotta be a bunch of violence loving psychos the whole bunch of them Maybe she's right...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator One Armed Boxer Posted June 16, 2011 Moderator Share Posted June 16, 2011 To be honest, I find it strange people take movies so seriously. Sure, they're supposed to kick you in the balls a few times when you're sitting in the theater, and this is exactly what a good horror movie does - creates a safe illusion of danger for 90 minutes. But why should anyone do anything but laugh at it afterwards? After all, it was just a bunch of actors goofing around with ketchup effects. I'm always amused when I think how ridiculous it must have looked like at the sets when they were filming those scenes and trying hard not to laugh. I think it's as much a case of why do the audience that will watch this movie want to see such things that are described in the report, as it is of why it was made in the first place. Yes a movie creates a "safe illusion of danger for 90 minutes", but by saying that you're opening yourself up to the argument that it's basically ok to show anything in a movie, no matter how depraved, sick, vile, or perverted it is, because it's not real. Where do you draw the line? Or in your opinion is there no need for a line to be drawn? For me the scenes described in the movie, particularly the barbed wire one and the circumstance around it, push the boundaries of what should be shown for what is, like you said, just a movie, which when you boil it down is essentially meant to be a form of entertainment. I personally would not be able to watch such scenes and then simply "laugh afterwards", I guess it doesn't really appeal to my sense of humor. I'm also not sure I entirely agree of your image that it's "just a bunch of actors goofing around with ketchup effects" and that they would be "filming those scenes and trying hard not to laugh", it's not always the case during the making of a horror movie that the actors and actresses are all having a ball behind the scenes. For the perfect example check out Shelly Duvall in the making of Kubrick's 'The Shining'....she is a complete mess due to the demands of the movie, and I would say it wouldn't be too different for any actress who has to perform her way through a rape scene, particularly one which is being done through the viewpoint of it being pleasurable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Takuma Posted June 16, 2011 Member Share Posted June 16, 2011 Where do you draw the line? Or in your opinion is there no need for a line to be drawn? Yes, this is my opinion indeed. Of course, you can't show stuff that is downright illeagal. Leave the kids out, don't kill anyone for real, and so on. But when it's just adults "goofing around"* I honestly can't see it as anything more than a movie, and I'm not really separating torture porn and The Roadrunner from each other in these terms. Both are equally (well, almost equally at least) fantasy and unreal in my eyes. I always found it a bit pretentious (and I mean this purely as my own opinion, not superior to someone else's) to draw these lines, that if you kill clean it's good entertainment but if you kill messy it's unacceptable entertainment, and if you cut two fingers it's ok, but if you cut three fingers it's not ok... Every generation is pushing the boundary, and even if Human Centipede II was banned today in a few decades it will be granted a '18' surely. Whether these films will be too hard for someone, that's a different issue. If BBFC has good reason to believe that Human Centipede II is dangerous for Brit viewers, then I guess I don't have anything to say against it. But moral bans I don't agree with. * yes, you're right it can sometimes be tough for actors too. But generally speaking my understanding is that cast and crew usually have tremendous fun making splatter films as they're so over the top and it looks so silly when you're in the sets. I don't know if this would apply Human Centipede II as I haven't see the film (or behind the scenes of the film). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Whether a ban is justified or not is one question... what I would love to know is why anyone would actually want to watch it? What possible pleasure could one get from watching a woman raped with barbed wire? Or someone being forced to shit in another's mouth? Kung Fu has an aesthetic pleasure... it's exciting, skillful, and fun to watch villains get their comeuppance from heroes. Now tell me what torture porn (specifically HCII) has to offer that's remotely comparable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Apanblod Posted June 16, 2011 Member Share Posted June 16, 2011 Whether a ban is justified or not is one question... what I would love to know is why anyone would actually want to watch it? What possible pleasure could one get from watching a woman raped with barbed wire? Or someone being forced to shit in another's mouth? Kung Fu has an aesthetic pleasure... it's exciting, skillful, and fun to watch villains get their comeuppance from heroes. Now tell me what torture porn (specifically HCII) has to offer that's remotely comparable? Why are you focusing so much on the "pleasure" one is supposed to need to gain from watching a movie? I think 99% of the people watching the movie doesn't get any "pleasure" out of watching people getting tortured on screen, and I don't thnk for a second that is what the movie-makers intended. Humans, to a certain extent, are by nature appealed by things that are disgusting. We are scared of it, sure, but still too curious to refrain from looking, and that's the way it's always been. The movie lives on it's reputation of being repulsive, that way, enough people are going to want to see it just for the sake of seing it, I know I did. And I didn't expect to find the torture scenes to get me excited or anything. Just because we get direct pleasure out of watching a well-choreographed kung fu-fight doesn't mean you have to get the same kind of direct pleasure out of every scene of every kind of movie, I think it's a strange way of reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator One Armed Boxer Posted June 16, 2011 Moderator Share Posted June 16, 2011 Of course, you can't show stuff that is downright illeagal. Leave the kids out, don't kill anyone for real, and so on. This is kind of what I was touching on in an earlier post, I understand of course that it's not acceptable to kill someone "for real", and nobody should want to see that....but am I right in reading into your comment that, based on the fact you didn't add "for real" after your kids reference, you would find it unacceptable to see a movie which contained any kind of violent sexual absue towards children, be it CGI, prosthetic, or otherwise? If that's the case, then I would ask why you find it acceptable to have an anal rape scene involving barbed wire in a movie, anymore than sexual abuse against children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Why are you focusing so much on the "pleasure" one is supposed to need to gain from watching a movie? Why else would you watch a movie? Surely the whole point of entertainment is to enjoy the experience? If you watch a scary movie it's because you enjoy being scared... if you watch a thriller it's because you enjoy being thrilled... if you watch torture porn it's because............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Takuma Posted June 16, 2011 Member Share Posted June 16, 2011 if you watch torture porn it's because............. You enjoy being scared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member inframan Posted June 16, 2011 Member Share Posted June 16, 2011 Why else would you watch a movie? Surely the whole point of entertainment is to enjoy the experience? If you watch a scary movie it's because you enjoy being scared... if you watch a thriller it's because you enjoy being thrilled... if you watch torture porn it's because............. Morbid curiosity, same reason people rubberneck at car wrecks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 You enjoy being scared. Torture porn isn't scary; that's not its raison d'etre. Morbid curiosity, same reason people rubberneck at car wrecks. The cinematic equivilent of a car crash? That speaks volumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Takuma Posted June 16, 2011 Member Share Posted June 16, 2011 Torture porn isn't scary; that's not its raison d'etre. And British beer isn't good. Shall we put that in wikipedia now that we're making up facts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Apanblod Posted June 17, 2011 Member Share Posted June 17, 2011 Why else would you watch a movie? Surely the whole point of entertainment is to enjoy the experience? If you watch a scary movie it's because you enjoy being scared... if you watch a thriller it's because you enjoy being thrilled... if you watch torture porn it's because............. I think you can enjoy a movie and that it can entertain you without that sort of purported pleasure you're supposed to get out of every single scene. Why does Reservoir Dogs have a torture scene showing a man getting his ear cut off? Sure, the plot of the movie doesn't revolve around the specific scene, but the scene lingers in people's heads, why? Because people, as inframan pointed out, like to look at car crashes, road kills, public executions (however sad that is). People can't resist nasty stuff, and that's all there is to it. If you watch torture porn it's because you enjoy watching things you really don't want to watch. Anyhow, it's just movies! People are not disturbed in any way for wanting to watch a movie about anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Cesare Posted June 17, 2011 Member Share Posted June 17, 2011 Why else would you watch a movie? Surely the whole point of entertainment is to enjoy the experience? If you watch a scary movie it's because you enjoy being scared... if you watch a thriller it's because you enjoy being thrilled... if you watch torture porn it's because............. Some people enjoy being -- disturbed. There is nothing particularly odd or wrong about being fascinated with the Abject. I know quite a few fans of brutal exploitation films and torture porn and they are all perfectly normal, decent people. (As far as I am concerned, Serbian Film has more or less delineated the limits of what I am willing to watch. And though I kind of enjoyed The First Sequence - c'mon, Dieter Laser was great...:-) - I think I don't need or want to see this sequel.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Takuma Posted June 17, 2011 Member Share Posted June 17, 2011 Of course, for many people the reason is indeed simply interest. In that sense, HCII just skyrocketed thanks to BBFC. I doubt even half of the people who are now going to see it would have bothered had the film not become such a hot potato. But for me those of these films that I do watch, I watch because for me they work as good horror movies. Grotesque, like I said, is one of the scariest films I've ever seen. I don't know if I ever need to see it again as I know how the film ends and what will happen in the scenes (which takes away most of the scariness of it). My friend also loved it on first viewing, but he said that on second viewing there wasn't really anything left. Many people also watch these as endurance test. Some people will never undertand it, but that's just because people are different. That's what keeps amazing me about Mark constantly marketing his personal opinions as widespread facts. Some people don't like mountain climbing either (which I haven't tried), some people won't watch 14 hours of the Le Mans 24 Hour Race like I did. But some people do appreciate the feeling of overcoming a challenge. Unfortunately some people are too narrow minded to accept people are different and have different opinions and views (like I was trying to point out with that ridiculous kung fu - violence lover example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Takuma Posted June 17, 2011 Member Share Posted June 17, 2011 I know quite a few fans of brutal exploitation films and torture porn and they are all perfectly normal, decent people. ) That's very much true. The ironic thing is that films like HCII are mainly film fest stuff - something that the "common people" (or the "scary psychos locked in their rooms") wouldn't even be seeing, except maybe now after all the fuzz they'll be downloading it. But generally speaking these film are for film buffs like me... people who travel a lot and go see them in foreign countries on film fest. I just came back from Germany from Nippon Connection last month. Many of my friends (whom you could count as "torture porn fans") travel much more than I do. The guys from the film mag I write to have been to Berlin, Dubai, Rotterdam, and Porto (Portugal) within the last 7 months alone. Last months we could hardly get anything released cause one guy was travelling in China, the other one was in Japan and South Korea, and the third was in Spain with his girlfriend... The Dubai fest report was really brief, though, as everyone spent most of their time riding camel and on desert safari rather than going to movies... Not exactly your creepy film psychos they aren't.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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