How much do the "old guard" mean to you now?

[blue_skies]

The reason I'm asking is because there doesn't seem to be the same amount of chances for young up-and- coming martial-arts stars. Even though let's face it many have proven to massively out perform them far better than the ageing superstars like Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Donnie Yen, Jean Claude Van Damme, Steven Seagal etc etc.

Let's face it they all deserve their dues but shouldn't they move on opening the way for the next generation. Obviously as long as they malinger holding on to decades gone by, will we see the best of the next generation? Obviously Hollywood and the money-men equivalent in the East can make the most out of the old guard's names. Yet all are past their prime if I'm perfectly honest.

I actually wish most would either retire or take on those more mature roles playing masters to up and coming young talents. It's the circle of life that the young replace the old but isn't it about time that martial-arts had its dignity restored. Let the next generation show what they can do and the old guard surrender honourably, rather than disappointing fans and just taking a pay cheque.

[odioustrident]

Their output has been mostly depressing for the last 10 years, but they're not introducing us to new talent either. The 2011 Shaolin film looks alright and has some old guard names though.

I wish some of the films showcasing Wu Jing were choreographed by Sammo etc... instead of Nicky Li.... some guy who has done most of his work after '95. How come another SPL level film was never made action-wise with the same names? Weird.

My worry is that when the old generation goes it'll be the last of anything like the proper HK action scene. We'll get some TV projects for the next few years and it will all erode in the face of CGI.

Also... none of the new wushu people have that opera timing. If we get something that truly feels "right" out of the mainland I'll be surprised.

[Phoenix]

There are quite a few talented young actors out there but they aren't being given the right roles or projects. Wasn't there a thread recently on the general forum where people started discussing the future of HK action cinema?

It sucks that Biao and Sammo aren't high up in a studio developing new projects.

The scariest trend for me has been pop singers starring in action films.

[blue_skies]

There are quite a few talented young actors out there but they aren't being given the right roles or projects. Wasn't there a thread recently on the general forum where people started discussing the future of HK action cinema?

It sucks that Biao and Sammo aren't high up in a studio developing new projects.

The scariest trend for me has been pop singers starring in action films.

I have to agree that the pop-star trend has been a worrying situation for a long time. I think one of the biggest problems is Jackie Chan and his ego. As a superstar, personally I believe that he hasn't given the talent behind and in front of the camera that chance to shine.

Bruce Lee didn't succeed on his own, he had young and hungry talent behind him like Sammo. And without Sammo innovating in the 70s and 80s I do wonder whether jackie Chan would have been the success he was.

As has been mentioned the opera school training pushing everyone as far as they could to create perfection. Yet nowadays it seems that Hong Kong cinema is happy to edit with a short sharp shots and long choreographed sequences are a thing of the past.

I forget which Hong Kong Legends DVD I was watching but the main star was talking about how hard Sammo pushed, repeating over and over expecting that perfection. He talked about how hard he was pushed to the limit of crying off set due to the sheer physicality demanded by Sammo.

That is what's needed. Striving for perfection. You don't think the Stunt people thought "we can make a film like any Jackie Chan film from the last 10 years". They tried to take what they saw from the best of Hong Kong cinema and improve on that. Just like the glory days of Hong Kong cinema.

If the new talent isn't getting a chance to develop under the existing stars, what future does Hong Kong have in action cinema?

I think we need the next Sammo more than the next Jackie. An action choreographer developing the next talent, or even the next talent pool, pushing the boundaries. Unfortunately as long as the next pop-star or Hollywood actor can be seen as a martial-arts superstar. What hope does martial-arts cinema have?

As we know there are lots of talented martial-arts practitioners. Clearly somebody needs to take a chance before this golden generation is swept aside with no successor.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

That guy who was pushed to the brink and cried backstage was Leung Kar Yan. I think it's from the Warriors Two interview.

[Space]

Oh, this is depressing.

The scene is soft these days for the most part. Directors are more willing to achieve martial arts by taking people with little to no skills but are a big name, giving them a crash course in a martial art and then letting MTV-style editing, wires and CGI do the rest.

It just kills me.

It seems even stunt men are given less to do. All the hardcore filming is going on in places like Thailand and Indonesia these days (if you're lucky, Korea) but they don't have the amount of screen talent, directors, etc. to choose from. So their output is limited. And frankly in Thailand's case, without a focused and hungry Tony Jaa, the work is becoming mediocre too.

It's not all the old guard's fault, they still bring up talent to show them off (remember 'Wushu'? Maybe the up-coming Choy Lee Fut movies?) but what HK up-and-comers have that X Factor? Nobody since Wu Jing, and that was ages ago when he first arrived. Maybe Collin Chou, but he's mostly suited to villain roles. Most of the new talent is good at martial arts but they're not charismatic, funny or have an ability to command the screen and chew into scenery.

I just don't understand the mentality of the agents and studios; the old guard is getting old, fast. Even Donnie Yen can't keep this up much longer. Guys like Sammo and Yuen Biao are increasingly taking on master roles and stepping away from starring. What's going to happen 10 years from now when most of them are retired, playing old men or worse? Are they going to pimp some more pop stars or start scrambling in desperation?

[Drunken Monk]

When you hear Donnie Yen talk of choreography it's very interesting. It seems he has a good head on his shoulders and, more importantly, wants to give fans the action we deserve. It's just that he hasn't been given a film to do so, really. Sure, "SPL" and "Flashpoint" were great action wise but don't you think he could really make a film shine if he had an amazing director focusing on his action.

I agree with everyone here. I think Sammo and Jackie are cashing in and Yuen Biao's nowhere to be seen. Christ, even Yuen Woo Ping's last film was an absolute mess. Who is doing good choreography these days? New school film makers don't seem to care as long as they have wires and CGI.

Dare we expect one more great film from Lau Kar Leung?

[DiP]

Giving newbies more opportunities doesn't only depend on the studios and producers but also the talents themselves. It's a very complex thing. It isn't that these new MA talents are being ignored and unaccepted, it's more with how they present themselves as onscreen fighters and the amount of challenges they take. Most of today's new MA actors are following the current trends so it's not strange as to why they aren't approached by studios and instead are forced to wait for opportunities offered to them. Some may argue that studios are just cashing in on talents (like Donnie Yen) that attract audiences but if you really think about it, you will realize that it's because of real dedication of changing and perfecting overall qualities they have gone through as performers and how long it took for them to reach that level. Studios and producers takes a liking in that; different qualities and advantages in individual performers.

Someone pointed out that new talents have what it takes to make martial arts movies but lacks charisma and the ability to represent something unique in them. That's the very problem; screen persona. For a small market, this isn't much of a concern but to get more chances, you need to start somewhere and from there strive for challenges and better your confidence, set yourself apart from others, and have the ability to gain trust from people so that they may look into you more. I don't see that much in these newbies, at least not at this point. All in all, some new talents may outclass most of the veterans physically but there's much they still have to learn to succeed in the future, and it takes time.

[Guest Markgway]

I still get more excited by the prospect of an 'old guard' film than something staring newcomers (especially if, like Jet Li and Donnie Yen, they're still producing quality work). Injecting new blood into the genre is fine, but but there's a real lack of talent on display. You either have martial artists who can't act or actors who can't fight. To take the example of Wu Jing, he's clearly a fine martial talent, but where's that movie star charisma? We long for the likes of Sammo Hung, Fu Sheng, and David Chiang etc, because they had that charisma. Fights are just exhibitions if you don't care about the characters.

[ShaOW!linDude]

This was the very issue that was part of the reason I recently posted a thread in the General Forum wondering whatever became of the winner of Chan's contest "The Disciple". He was looking for new action/MA star talent. But the winner, Jack Tu who was to get a 3 picture deal, has mainly been relegated to bit roles, some stunt work, and being placed in a boy band. And he has a MA upbringing. What's the deal?

I've said for years that Sammo should be searching out new talent to mentor. The guy has a rep as a director/actor/choreographer. You'd think a studio would give him free rein to do some projects.

I think the guys in the old guard have definitely earned to right to bank on their names and collect a check. You can't argue with their performances of the 70's and 80's, even some 90's stuff. They made their names for themselves. They are (were) bankable studio commodities.

As pointed out, studio heads now want that built into the actors they hire for projects. That's why we're getting pop stars in MA/action films who have an already established fan base.

To me, talent leads to charisma and not vice versa. I thought Wu Jing was on the road to being the next big thing out of HK cinema. The young men of "Wushu" likewise.

I've said this before: Dramatic fare, good acting and plot, are secondary to me in a MA film. I can overlook the lack of it or deal with it if the talent/choreography is there.

If you're a studio making these types of films, you don't need a major budget. You don't need huge car chases, massive explosions, and an untold body count shootout. You could save money on those expenditures by focusing on having a core group/stable of MA actors and choreographers who just "beat the snot out of each other". Spend the time inventing fight sequences and scenarios. I can watch all that other stuff in a regular old action flick.

It's ironic that HK films have moved away from this but their influence is clearly seen in the MA films coming out of other countries that are harkening back to it and trying to pay homage to it or replicate it while bringing their own flavor to it.

[The Silver Fox]

The good news is that there is a vast catalogue of kung fu movies to collect from the golden era say 1976-1983. That is the era I'm most interested in -yes there are lots and lots of great films that were made earlier/later (and in the present) but this is where the majority of my faves come from.

Kung fu movies are very much 'of their time' so to speak. they were very big for a couple of years and alot of them were made to capitalize on the craze. What makes these years so important is that you had a huge demand for kung fu movies AND a huge stable of amazing talent to accommodate that demand. The factors converged and produced what I refer to as the golden era.

You're never gonna see films like those come out again because there is no market for them, plus there is no Peking opera-well at least the child abusing kind that produced Sammo,Jackie,Biao,the Venoms etc.

So even if the will and financing is there, you don't have the young generation with skills that even remotely match the old school guys. Yeah, you have alot of fancy wushu but nobody that spent 10-12 years being brutally trained in all forms of martial arts,weapons,acrobatics,singing,acting and whatever else.

Guys like Chiang Sheng were already struggling to get work in the mid 80's-so debating whether there is going to be an upcoming generation of capable kung fu stars is a mute issue. The boom died more than 25 years ago.

I'm content to just collect the old movies and if a new one is good, swell but the best stuff is in the past.

[Space]

Yeah, you have alot of fancy wushu but nobody that spent 10-12 years being brutally trained in all forms of martial arts,weapons,acrobatics,singing,acting and whatever else.

Maybe not singing and acting, but kids in China who are enrolled in wushu academies don't exactly have it easy and are still treated harshly so that they can be perfect.

Also, their kung fu skills are better than the opera kids, who learned opera stage fighting, which doesn't have much force. Yuen Biao mentioned specifically that he and the others learned real kung fu and other styles like Tae Kwon Do separately from Peking Opera to have convincing onscreen fights.

Having said that, I still think HK should be mining the opera schools for talent as well as the wushu academies.

[GOLDEN DRAGON YIN-YANG]

Everything, these days its hard for me to like most modern KFM.

The past IS past but still you can't beat the good ol' days of KFM.

You know there is talent out there.

I like the comment: give Sammo some bukeroos and let him show US how it can still be done.

GD Y-Y

[Phoenix]

I seem to think that in Hollywood, legendary directors are given the opportunity, welcomed even, to produce new projects.

The only other genre I can think of with regards to treatments of legends like in Hong Kong films, is hiphop, where older, usually better rappers/mcs are given zero recognition.

Lau Kar Leung struggled to find funding for his last project, that sucks.

[The Silver Fox]

Maybe not singing and acting, but kids in China who are enrolled in wushu academies don't exactly have it easy and are still treated harshly so that they can be perfect.

Also, their kung fu skills are better than the opera kids, who learned opera stage fighting, which doesn't have much force. Yuen Biao mentioned specifically that he and the others learned real kung fu and other styles like Tae Kwon Do separately from Peking Opera to have convincing onscreen fights.

Having said that, I still think HK should be mining the opera schools for talent as well as the wushu academies.

Oh, I agree,wushu academies are very tough, but I doubt anybody gets beaten to death-which did occur occasionally at where Jackie Chan was trained.(According to his bio,anyway).

[blue_skies]

This was the very issue that was part of the reason I recently posted a thread in the General Forum wondering whatever became of the winner of Chan's contest "The Disciple". He was looking for new action/MA star talent. But the winner, Jack Tu who was to get a 3 picture deal, has mainly been relegated to bit roles, some stunt work, and being placed in a boy band. And he has a MA upbringing. What's the deal?

I've said for years that Sammo should be searching out new talent to mentor. The guy has a rep as a director/actor/choreographer. You'd think a studio would give him free rein to do some projects.

I think the guys in the old guard have definitely earned to right to bank on their names and collect a check. You can't argue with their performances of the 70's and 80's, even some 90's stuff. They made their names for themselves. They are (were) bankable studio commodities.

As pointed out, studio heads now want that built into the actors they hire for projects. That's why we're getting pop stars in MA/action films who have an already established fan base.

To me, talent leads to charisma and not vice versa. I thought Wu Jing was on the road to being the next big thing out of HK cinema. The young men of "Wushu" likewise.

I've said this before: Dramatic fare, good acting and plot, are secondary to me in a MA film. I can overlook the lack of it or deal with it if the talent/choreography is there.

If you're a studio making these types of films, you don't need a major budget. You don't need huge car chases, massive explosions, and an untold body count shootout. You could save money on those expenditures by focusing on having a core group/stable of MA actors and choreographers who just "beat the snot out of each other". Spend the time inventing fight sequences and scenarios. I can watch all that other stuff in a regular old action flick.

It's ironic that HK films have moved away from this but their influence is clearly seen in the MA films coming out of other countries that are harkening back to it and trying to pay homage to it or replicate it while bringing their own flavor to it.

I have to agree with Shaolin dude that it's the talent on the screen, the fights, the stunts, the choreography and the thrills that come first and foremost. I can look past the acting quality, the weak scripts, paper-thin plots. Because without the first most important segment it could be just any Hollywood action movie.

Sure it is great to get the whole package including a good story, acting etc on top of great martial-arts and action. Unfortunately if the story doesn't blow you away and the action is just OK. In my opinion it's generally pretty much a waste. At least if you have the balance the other way you can always fast-forward and enjoy the action.

I also agree that these films don't need to be made with lots of money. With young relatively unknown talent can be had far cheaper than the big successful names. While they are learning their craft over time they can polish their acting ability, possibly learn comic timing etc. I mean after all it wasn't that many years ago people wouldn't consider Donnie Yen much of an actor. It's clearly something he's improved over 25 plus years of making movies .

The good news is that there is a vast catalogue of kung fu movies to collect from the golden era say 1976-1983. That is the era I'm most interested in -yes there are lots and lots of great films that were made earlier/later (and in the present) but this is where the majority of my faves come from.

Kung fu movies are very much 'of their time' so to speak. they were very big for a couple of years and alot of them were made to capitalize on the craze. What makes these years so important is that you had a huge demand for kung fu movies AND a huge stable of amazing talent to accommodate that demand. The factors converged and produced what I refer to as the golden era.

You're never gonna see films like those come out again because there is no market for them, plus there is no Peking opera-well at least the child abusing kind that produced Sammo,Jackie,Biao,the Venoms etc.

So even if the will and financing is there, you don't have the young generation with skills that even remotely match the old school guys. Yeah, you have alot of fancy wushu but nobody that spent 10-12 years being brutally trained in all forms of martial arts,weapons,acrobatics,singing,acting and whatever else.

Guys like Chiang Sheng were already struggling to get work in the mid 80's-so debating whether there is going to be an upcoming generation of capable kung fu stars is a mute issue. The boom died more than 25 years ago.

I'm content to just collect the old movies and if a new one is good, swell but the best stuff is in the past.

Kung-fu movies are very much of their time but I think modern martial-arts can bring the best elements to a big audience and be successful. They don't have to be huge blockbusters but made on a more realistic budget, there's less need to make extraordinary amounts from the box office.

I don't think just because someone was brutally trained for a decade or more is the key to success. I'm sure there are plenty of skilled martial artists that could be and should be trained, perhaps first as a stuntman developing what they need to succeed as they go along. I'm sure I saw a video where Panna and his team auditioned new hopefuls where they expected the multitude of candidates to not only be skilled in martial-arts and have some basic gymnastic skills but also know something more specialised like horse-riding or the ability to ride a motorbike.

With no set-up like Shaw Brothers or Golden Harvest and opportunities for Stunt teams members to get the chance. That is the problem.

[ShaOW!linDude]

With no set-up like Shaw Brothers or Golden Harvest and opportunities for Stunt teams members to get the chance. That is the problem.

Exactly.

I can't understand why one of the HK studios haven't picked up on the Stunt People and provided them with an opportunity. (Since none of the US studios will.) Look at what they do on a shoestring budget. Give them a budget like $5M (and that would be extravagant for them) and see if they don't at least triple that in profit. It would only grow from there.

And part of the fun of watching their stuff is that they don't take themselves too seriously as actors. They're having fun doing what they love. Would they develop as actors? Sure, I don't see how they couldn't. But think of how they would develop as on screen fighting talents! You think they blow our minds now? Shoot! They'd have us bouncing on our couches. (I do that already!)

[blue_skies]

Exactly.

I can't understand why one of the HK studios haven't picked up on the Stunt People and provided them with an opportunity. (Since none of the US studios will.) Look at what they do on a shoestring budget. Give them a budget like $5M (and that would be extravagant for them) and see if they don't at least triple that in profit. It would only grow from there.

And part of the fun of watching their stuff is that they don't take themselves too seriously as actors. They're having fun doing what they love. Would they develop as actors? Sure, I don't see how they couldn't. But think of how they would develop as on screen fighting talents! You think they blow our minds now? Shoot! They'd have us bouncing on our couches. (I do that already!)

I agree with your sentiment but I would think that's a little too much. I reckon they could pull off wonders with half a million dollars with a gradual increase after each movie.As much as I rate the Stunt People I think the step up from next to nothing to $5 million would be far too much.

Now someone should invest in the Alpha stunts team. I don't know how much their films have cost but they could probably step up to a fairly big budget and deliver an awesome film.

[ShaOW!linDude]

I feel you. That's why I said $5M would be an extravagant sum for them. I agree with you: Half a mill would be a good starting point for them.

Alpha Stunts definitely deserves some investors, too.

[SimonMW]

vI have to agree that the pop-star trend has been a worrying situation for a long time.

I used to be the same, but not anymore. We had our fair share of non martial artists who have turned out some good stuff. Look at Andy Lau for example. Besides, many kung fu stars also have a singing career, so why not the opposite? As long as they are good at performing the moves I don't see a problem. Remember, the likes of Jackie Chan, Yuen Biao etc were the young tykes of their day. Though I suppose they had more character than some of the new guard who are all about looks.

I can't understand why one of the HK studios haven't picked up on the Stunt People and provided them with an opportunity.

Because they want the film to make money. No offense to the Stunt People, who I respect greatly, but unfortunately film backers want guaranteed return. That means getting names involved, having a franchise etc. Even Steve Wang failed to get backing for more MA films despite all his films having made a profit, and despite the likes of Mark Dacascos being associated with them. A travesty really.

Having said that, I reckon the SP could raise enough money via crowd funding since they have a lot of supporters. In my old age though I'd want a decent script to be used rather than the film be purely about stunts and fights. I don't think SP need a huge budget. But remember where the budgets should go. The crew and actors. Have a good script, pay for a professional crew and you're halfway there.

I'd love to make something else, having already achieved amazing reviews on Play.com and Amazon such as "This is the worst film I have seen in my life". Made all the effort and my co-directors life upheaval worthwhile!! :/

I just wouldn't make something ever again without a fully paid crew. If I could figure out how to raise a budget to do that and make sure I got paid myself I'd give it another go. There are bills to pay unfortunately.

Here are my top tips if you want to try it yourself.

1. Get a budget.

2. If you can't get a budget you are welcome to try but be prepared for:

- Unreliable crew.

- To shoot at weekends and spare time which will make the film take 20 years to complete.

- If you are married prepare for divorce.

- Your film to look like crap because it had no budget.

- For people to point out that your film looks like crap.

- For your vision of amazing HK style fights to be ruined because the people you need on set haven't turned up.

- Because you can't hire in Sammo Hung to do the choreography you will have to do it yourself, and all the other guys on set will constantly contradict you with comments such as "well, in a real fight I wouldn't do that" etc.

- Realise that because of the last point you will have to repeatedly bang your head against a wall.

- Realise in no uncertain terms that the only people who will ever see your film will be yourself and a few of your mates, and the kind people who will write stellar reviews on Amazon etc.

[AlbertV]

I used to be the same, but not anymore. We had our fair share of non martial artists who have turned out some good stuff. Look at Andy Lau for example. Besides, many kung fu stars also have a singing career, so why not the opposite? As long as they are good at performing the moves I don't see a problem. Remember, the likes of Jackie Chan, Yuen Biao etc were the young tykes of their day. Though I suppose they had more character than some of the new guard who are all about looks.

I have to agree with Simon as well. Andy Lau worked his butt off over the years and while he was doubled in his first few MA films by Chin Kar-Lok, he did manage to get the basics right. And for SHAOLIN, he actually studied under Abbot Shi Yong Xin and Xing Yu in the style of Seven Star Long Fist.

Also look at Nicholas Tse. He's truly gone a long way. He started out training under Nicky Li for films. However, after the TV series WING CHUN, he enjoyed training for the series so much under Sifu Guy Lai that he continues his training to this day with Sifu Philip Ng as does Andy On, who also was a non-martial artist before he began making films.

Like martial artists in training, it takes dedication and these guys have truly become dedicated to training so like Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung, and Yuen Biao amongst other members of the "old guard", they can entertain the fans in the action genre.

Perhaps nowadays, the "old guard" have been mentoring the next generation and while at times it may have failed, other times have succeeded.

[blue_skies]

I have to agree with Simon as well. Andy Lau worked his butt off over the years and while he was doubled in his first few MA films by Chin Kar-Lok, he did manage to get the basics right. And for SHAOLIN, he actually studied under Abbot Shi Yong Xin and Xing Yu in the style of Seven Star Long Fist.

Also look at Nicholas Tse. He's truly gone a long way. He started out training under Nicky Li for films. However, after the TV series WING CHUN, he enjoyed training for the series so much under Sifu Guy Lai that he continues his training to this day with Sifu Philip Ng as does Andy On, who also was a non-martial artist before he began making films.

Like martial artists in training, it takes dedication and these guys have truly become dedicated to training so like Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung, and Yuen Biao amongst other members of the "old guard", they can entertain the fans in the action genre.

Perhaps nowadays, the "old guard" have been mentoring the next generation and while at times it may have failed, other times have succeeded.

The films I have seen of those guys I have largely been unimpressed with the guys you mentioned. I will give special mention to Andy On who looked very good in Bad Blood. But looking good is only a minimum standard and if I'm paying good money to buy a martial-arts movie, I expect the stars of the film to be better than good. I want to be impressed by what I see. The standard has been set by the old guard and the next generation who perhaps haven't made the breakthrough even with great movies under their belt. If I wanted to see a pop star doing martial-arts I could stick with Hollywood films. I want and expect better.

Andy Lau and Nicholas Tse have a long way to go before I would buy a movie on the strength of them. When they can pull off the performances as good as Sammo, Donnie, Jet, Wu Jing, Jackie, Yuen Biao, Tony Jaa, Mark Dacascos, Johnny Yong Bosch, Daniel O'Neill etc etc etc over many films then I'll have to re-evaluate my position.

[Phoenix]

I just don't see some of the singers turned actors in kung fu/m.a, films ever giving a performance like the 'old guard' mentioned in this thread.

Some of the older favourites trained for years and years and underwent treatment bordering on abuse to be able to perform at the level, physically, that they performed at.

The only singer turned action actor who's performance I liked was Aaron Kwok, for the Barefoot Kid. Even then, that was only because of Lau Kar Leung's choreography, Ti Lung, the strength of the story and because Kwok was quite good in the role acting wise. He still had no stand out fighting scenes, really, and when I think about it that's one film I like even though it has no particular lengthy fight that stands out (for me personally).

[The Dragon]

You don't need millions to do this:

qDZuBElws-k

[AbeRudder]

You don't need millions to do this:

qDZuBElws-k

Troof. I was watching how they made the rotating fight scene in inception and how they built this massive structure to do it etc. etc. and i was thinkin this is cool n all but id much rather watch yuen biao and sammo or whoever go at it for 10 mins in the middle of some field.

Regarding the original post, i think there are tons of young martial artists who can flip higher and kick faster than jackie and co ever could but what we are really lacking are new guys who have the ability to film and choreograph fight scenes the way lkl, jackie, sammo and the yuen clan did.