Member John Posted February 21, 2011 Member Share Posted February 21, 2011 I have a confession to make, KFC. I watched Blood Brothers last night, and I almost fell asleep! Never saw that one coming. I've seen all kinds of love for this film, and it's Chang Cheh; odds are, it should have been right up my alley. But I've discovered a couple things about Chang's films: a) David Chiang/Ti Lung are better actors than athletes. I find when it comes to weapons, they're a lot more convincing than with simple hand to hand. While I've come to appreciate the operatic sensibility about these films, they just look really dumb hopping about sometimes; think: button mashers playing Tekken. I think a part of this has to do with swordplay being Chang's first domain, or that kung fu was still pretty green in 1973. The early 80s stuff from Chang is much more satisfying; the action is a lot more convincingly staged, which probably reflect the maturity a decade can afford. c) Maybe this has something to do with them taking place outdoors. Although with some impressive cinematography, there is an abundance of "drama". I don't necessarily object to this, but these scenes were quite painfully mediocre to me. This archetypical, soap opera story might have been really interesting if there was more crazy, overflowing emotion. But instead, we're left with something that's exactly what could be expected over a 2hr-ish runtime. The Braveheart-ish ending was also sort of just tacked-on there. In conclusion, I find this film to half baked. But hey, I also thought Seven Man Army was rather uninspiring as well (in addition to featuring WWII era Gunto...with Jian pommels? The curvature on those was also pretty whacky, but only the Mongolians used them. Any history buffs care to shed some light on that?) I will approach The Heroic Ones with trepidation; Chang + outdoors doesn't seem to work for me. Anyhow, any thoughts on Blood Brothers or similar disinterest in some of the more vocally lauded classics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member northern b Posted February 21, 2011 Member Share Posted February 21, 2011 is yours! Fair play for being honest about not rating the film There are many films that get mad props 2 examples being Thundering Mantis and Death Duel of Kung Fu that for me are not really all that at all! So while I don't knock someone for their choice of films as it is down to personal taste, I've never been afraid to go against the popular choice and admit to not rating films deemed to be classics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Idiot Posted February 21, 2011 Member Share Posted February 21, 2011 I also agree that Blood Brothers is boring & drawn out. Like Northern B says, it all comes down to personal taste but I think BB is more of a drama anyways. I do like Thundering Mantis though Davis Chiang does look a bit awkward in some of the earlier Shaw's but seems to be a bit more fluent in say, Shaolin Mantis. Ti Lung on the other hand is pretty badass! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member northern b Posted February 21, 2011 Member Share Posted February 21, 2011 Not seen blood brothers- but some how I don't think the choreography would as high level as the Challenger or the loot both of which feature David Chiang! Idiot part of the reason I mention films that I don't rate is due to vendors trying to palm off (what IMO were) substandard titles as being high level. Then again I quickly learned that choreography as brilliant as in the Victim or Buddhist fist was not going to be in nigh on every title.... This was also in the days before DVD let along Youtube (where you can now preview stuff) or torrents (download and delete if you don't like it at no cost!) and VHS of these films was NOT cheap in those days. I was fortunate to meet a fellow fan that had a large collection and was then able to view a lot of titles at no cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Sheng Posted February 22, 2011 Member Share Posted February 22, 2011 Funny, I (re-)watched BLOOD BROTHERS just two nights ago and I thought it wasn’t drawn out or too long – rather too short. I truly wish Chang Che would have dwelled on the convoluted emotional anguish of the Ti Lung / Ching Li affair longer and as convincingly as on his usual yanggang theme. Still a lotta touching moments and all in all quite an impressive epic. Not a brilliant one though. Most overrated Chang Che flick is FIVE ELEMENT NINJAS; just a tad too gaudy and zany to leave a lasting impression on me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Yi-Long Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 - The Shaolin Temple (Shaw). I just don't care for it AT ALL, I feel the martial arts is mediocre, and I think Fu Sheng is absolutely worthless in the role of Fong Sai Yuk. I found the whole thing pretty damn boring. - Warriors Two. Not a bad movie by any means, but I'm having some problems with the pacing. I find it very hard to get into the movie, as the first half is just quite boring and uninteresting. I LOVE The Prodigal Son though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Tosh Posted February 22, 2011 Member Share Posted February 22, 2011 As for Blood Brothers I think it would of been a better movie had Chiang and Chen Kuan Tai changed roles, still a classic in my book though. I didn't care for the Once upon a time in China movies, or a lot of the movies in the 90's for that matter, more because of the wirlwind choreo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator KUNG FU BOB Posted February 22, 2011 Administrator Share Posted February 22, 2011 Hey John, I felt prett much the same way as you described when I watched BLOOD BROTHERS. I actually felt a little guilty- like I was supposed to like it more because it was a revered classic. But... it just didn't get me that way. Another one that I heard a ton of praise for, then watched and could barely get into at all... 7 GRANDMASTERS. Sorry! Please direct all hate mail to Gorhama. LOL I'll have to give it another try. But the first time? Big old yawner for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member John Posted February 22, 2011 Author Member Share Posted February 22, 2011 AHA! I knew you heretics would come out of the woodwork. @Yi-long: OMG. I couldn't go without that German disc for long. And Prodigal Son was even better the second time through! Regarding Warriors Two: I periodically mix up Warriors Two, Knockabout, and Magnificent Butcher. It could be just because I haven't seen them in a while, but there are a lot of samey Sammo flicks. It could also be because they're all just variations on a theme of awesomeness: Sammo Hung. Shaolin Temple took its damn time, but at least it had gimmicky training sequences! The end was pretty solid, too. @Sheng: Hmm. I actually quite enjoyed Five Element Ninja. Aside from the film's reputation, what I'd seen beforehand (things like Return of the One Armed Swordsman, 5 Venoms, and The Duel) were the kind of messed-up masterpieces I've come to cherish from Chang Cheh. Going from those to 5 Element Ninjas, it's borderline self parody! Everything is cranked to 11; it's just too much fun. Blood Brothers, now that you mention it, feels like it has something askew. One of my big disappointments was the curiously dry battlefield, but more fundamentally it's hard to decide who to root for. Apparently, I'm supposed to hate Ti Lung, but he's such a presence. And besides, who could stay mad at that face? @KUNG FU BOB: Untapped potential, yeah? And what was up with all the people rolling down hills in that movie?!? The mysterious mind of Chang Cheh... I ended up liking 7 Grandmasters, but that old guy's entourage got old pretty fast. What did you think of the Heroic Ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member AbeRudder Posted February 22, 2011 Member Share Posted February 22, 2011 Agreed on chang's earlier stuff, up to Heroes Two i dont really find anything he did that great mostly due to the sub par fighting. Five Shaolin Masters, Heroes Two, Shaolin Martial Arts etc are all golden. I did find Shaolin Temple surprisingly weak though. Zu Warriors - cannot get into this one at all, it got hyped up as a hk classic with tsui hark directing and yuen biao starring but i didnt find one bit of the movie interesting at all. Most of the action was special fx and wire based and that stuff doesnt interest me in the least. Yuen Biao's deleted fight scene was the only bit i liked. Not really a classic but i was expecting to love shaolin chastity kung fu considering it was directed by Robert Tai in his prime and had lo rei starring in it but the fighting was incredibly mediocre. The end fight in particular was really average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Shawoholic Posted February 22, 2011 Member Share Posted February 22, 2011 Not really a classic but i was expecting to love shaolin chastity kung fu considering it was directed by Robert Tai in his prime and had lo rei starring in it but the fighting was incredibly mediocre. The end fight in particular was really average. Even robert tai admitted in interview it`s bad movie.I have not interest to check out was he right:squigglemouth: Most of time Heroes Two was pretty boring and tad overacting from fu sheng.And dig tunnel to free ckt:9: Solid end fight though Five deadly venoms was not so classic as some people consider.It`s good movie but so are hundreds others.Movies best thing was it`s success which made possible to make many other venom movies:bigsmile: Blood Brothers is drama with some martial arts.I like it but credit goes to actors, not for storyline or fights(what there is ain`t bad but there is not enough).Ti Lung is great in this, ckt plays dumbass role well and chiang is good bystander who foresees worthcoming disaster.Not in my top ten but movie I would show to friend who is not deeply into kf cinema. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member sdog2006 Posted February 22, 2011 Member Share Posted February 22, 2011 - The Shaolin Temple (Shaw). I just don't care for it AT ALL, I feel the martial arts is mediocre, and I think Fu Sheng is absolutely worthless in the role of Fong Sai Yuk. I found the whole thing pretty damn boring. - Warriors Two. Not a bad movie by any means, but I'm having some problems with the pacing. I find it very hard to get into the movie, as the first half is just quite boring and uninteresting. I LOVE The Prodigal Son though... Warriors Two rocks. PURE LOVE for that movie but it's all about opinions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Morgoth Bauglir Posted February 22, 2011 Member Share Posted February 22, 2011 What did you think of the Heroic Ones? Heroic Ones is a great one but the ending is disappointing. The way they deal with the traitor brothers didn't do it for me. Blood Brothers is one of my favorites. A perfect movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Drunken Monk Posted February 22, 2011 Member Share Posted February 22, 2011 I've yet to get through "Heroes Two." I've tried watching it three times and each time I've just had to give up. This one will probably get me burned at the stake but I don't like "Invincible Armour" half as much as others do. I think it's because I genuinely dislike John Liu. Also, I'm not sure if this is considered a classic but "18 Bronzemen" is a real snooze fest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Apanblod Posted February 22, 2011 Member Share Posted February 22, 2011 Great thread! I've been meaning to start one like this, but never had the audacity The "classics" I quite don't get the most are: Drunken Master: This was one of the first old-school kung fu movies I saw beside the Bruce Lee movies, so I guess I have a lot to thank this movie for since it introduced me to the genre, but apart from that, it's overrated and nowhere near the top spot as the best movie within the genre as many people claim. I never thought Jackie was suited for this style of choreography, in spite of his amazing physicality and technique. The end fight vs. HJL is non-fluid and a bit stiff, although there are some impressive moves and shapes there. Plus, the obnoxious comedy makes you want to fast-forward to the action. Don't get me wrong though, it's a good movie, just not as good as people constantly say. Five Deadly Venoms: I'm one of the biggest Venom-fans there is (OK, I get how cliché that sounds) but the early Venom movies really isn't my cup of tea (maybe because they didn't have full control over their own choreography yet) , and this one in particular strikes me as one of the most overrated Kung Fu movies of all time. The story is great, admittedly. It has a cool atmosphere, some fun characters, and many intense non-fighting scenes. That's it though. The fighting comes scarce to say the least and what is there is sub-par to anything the venoms did later. The Venoms knew fast-paced opera-influenced weapon-wielding and acrobatics like no-one else in the trade, but this is just waving their arms and legs worse than Jimmy Wang or David Chiang ever did in the 60's, only with some bad undercranking. I don't mind watching it once in a while, but it's not often a Kung Fu movie gets me more interested in the plot than the fighting (not a good thing!) Enter the Dragon THE most overrated MA-movie of all time, hands down. Everything is bad here, acting, pacing, casting, fighting, directing, you name it. The only saving grace is the amazing unintentionally funny plot and dialogue, this is really so-bad-it's-good. The very few fighting scenes we get from Bruce are ruined because of the lack of any decent competition, or just that they are plain bad (end fight vs Han must be the worst fight of Bruce's career). And seriously, Bruce Lee and Bolo in the same movie, and we DON'T get to see them go at it against each other?!?! Instead we are treated with the most improbable scenario in Kung Fu-movie history; Bolo being defeated by John Saxon. I can't get over that.. my youth was squandered and I'll never ever forgive Hollywood for this, never. Again, i wouldn't hesitate watching it any given day, but only because the fact that it's Bruce Lee on the screen and that I laugh my ass off at practically every single spoken line. Master of the Flying Guillotine Cool weapon, bad bad movie.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Takuma Posted February 22, 2011 Member Share Posted February 22, 2011 Most Chang Cheh films that feature period-politics and large cast. The Blood Brothers, The Heroic Ones, etc. put me to sleep. Also most venoms films. Crippled Avengers, while an ok movie, was quite disappointing. The end fight hardly seemed to make any use of their special skills / limitations. I was hoping the cripples would have to collaborate to compensate for their weaknesses, but no. One problem for me with a lot of later Chang Cheh stuff is that the fights go on for too long, and you get the image that the fighters are completely powerless. Lack of intensity. You can fast forward 10 minutes cause you know it's gonna take at least 15 min before one of the fighters will get a scratch on his cheek... I do love some Chang Cheh movies, though, such as the One Armed Swordsman films. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member John Posted February 22, 2011 Author Member Share Posted February 22, 2011 @Apanblod: Ah, but the REAL star of Drunken Master is Yuen Siu Tien, is it not? It was one of my first too! I found a pan/scan and dubbed DVD at wal-mart one fateful day, and I fell in love with Cantonese comedy. I could sit down to Jackie/Sammo screwing around in the Qing dynasty anytime! Unless an obnoxious Shiah LeBouf clone is to be included in the festivities. Likewise, I think Jim Kelly vyes for supremacy over Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon. I agree that movie is also pretty hilarious, if for the most part unintentionally so. 5 Deadly Venoms though, that was a pleasant surprise. Even if it doesn't amaze as a kung fu film, I dig that nefarious murder mystery plot. Plus, Shaw production values are in full capacity there. Than again, 9 times out of 10, you can win me over with powdered wigs and cackling laughter alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member vengeanceofhumanlanterns Posted February 22, 2011 Member Share Posted February 22, 2011 John, Heroic Ones should be right up your alley. The english dub is great too. Good drinking flick right there. Almost all Shaws films are disappointing to a greater or lesser degree in the choreograph department. There are exceptions and they are few. This goes with weapons or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WuxiaFan Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Another one that I heard a ton of praise for, then watched and could barely get into at all... 7 GRANDMASTERS. Sorry! Please direct all hate mail to Gorhama. LOL I'll have to give it another try. But the first time? Big old yawner for me. WHAT!! Just when you thought you knew your soul brother, he makes a post like that!! 7 GRANDMASTERS is one of my favorites! This one will probably get me burned at the stake but I don't like "Invincible Armour" half as much as others do. I think it's because I genuinely dislike John Liu. Does someone have a match? Great thread! I've been meaning to start one like this, but never had the audacity Next time, just do it. Drunken Master: This was one of the first old-school kung fu movies I saw beside the Bruce Lee movies, so I guess I have a lot to thank this movie for since it introduced me to the genre, but apart from that, it's overrated and nowhere near the top spot as the best movie within the genre as many people claim. I never thought Jackie was suited for this style of choreography, in spite of his amazing physicality and technique. The end fight vs. HJL is non-fluid and a bit stiff, although there are some impressive moves and shapes there. Plus, the obnoxious comedy makes you want to fast-forward to the action. Don't get me wrong though, it's a good movie, just not as good as people constantly say. That's near blasphemy 'round here...BUT, I do agree with you on the comedy. Some of it is just dreadful. Enter the Dragon THE most overrated MA-movie of all time, hands down. Everything is bad here, acting, pacing, casting, fighting, directing, you name it. The only saving grace is the amazing unintentionally funny plot and dialogue, this is really so-bad-it's-good. The very few fighting scenes we get from Bruce are ruined because of the lack of any decent competition, or just that they are plain bad (end fight vs Han must be the worst fight of Bruce's career). And seriously, Bruce Lee and Bolo in the same movie, and we DON'T get to see them go at it against each other?!?! Instead we are treated with the most improbable scenario in Kung Fu-movie history; Bolo being defeated by John Saxon. I can't get over that.. my youth was squandered and I'll never ever forgive Hollywood for this, never. Again, i wouldn't hesitate watching it any given day, but only because the fact that it's Bruce Lee on the screen and that I laugh my ass off at practically every single spoken line. And Dragon should be posting here in about 3 ... 2 ....1.... Master of the Flying Guillotine Cool weapon, bad bad movie.. Have a beef with you here. IMHO, this is another superb classic kung fu movie. This was one of the early DVDs I got in my collection. Perhaps, read this review by Mark Pollard (founder of kungfucinema.com) and then re-watch it: http://www.kungfucinema.com/review-master-of-the-flying-guillotine-1975-520 For me, to answer the thread, it was PHANTOM KUNG FU. I fell asleep twice and just didn't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Apanblod Posted February 22, 2011 Member Share Posted February 22, 2011 [...] Have a beef with you here. IMHO, this is another superb classic kung fu movie. This was one of the early DVDs I got in my collection. Perhaps, read this review by Mark Pollard (founder of kungfucinema.com) and then re-watch it: http://www.kungfucinema.com/review-master-of-the-flying-guillotine-1975-520 : Well, I've noticed that I tend to disagree with Mark on a lot of movies. IMO he bashes a lot of awesome movies based on their week plot and acting in spite of fantastic choreography, only to praise others with dreadful plot and so-so fighting, but as someone said, it's all a matter of taste. However, I'll take your advice, since it's been quite a while since I last saw MotFG, and it was a washed-out, cropped, old, dubbed version Maybe I'll appreciate it more in a restored state. The scene with the "Indian" gentleman with extending arms creeps me out though! Seriously, it's worse than any modern horror movie, especially in that old crappy print. Hua! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Idiot Posted February 22, 2011 Member Share Posted February 22, 2011 Master of the Flying Guillotine Cool weapon, bad bad movie.. I think I'm with you on this one here. Just watched it again last night. I want to like it, I really do. It's just too ridiculous at times, even for a Kung Fu flick. I mean, walking on the ceiling & the rattan basket?! The Indian fellow getting all Dhalsim from Street Fighter on a dude? I like the atmosphere in the beginning with the blind monk in the fog & what not (even like the score a lot too) but overall it fails to grab me. Too bad, it's got a lot of redeeming qualities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Truecos2 Posted February 22, 2011 Member Share Posted February 22, 2011 As a big fan of choreography with realistic fighting speed, I'm not the biggest fan of this movie. However, for a 1973 film it has to be considered a classic in terms of plot, acting and good choreography as far as the year it was made. The fighting scenes of that era were usually a bit slower than most of the good films in the late 70's and early 80's. IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrator KUNG FU BOB Posted February 22, 2011 Administrator Share Posted February 22, 2011 It's all about opinions ? Looks like some grumpy old men had to get some hate off their chest. Wuxifan was only kidding around. I know that without hearing his "tone" it can be hard to tell. But I know him, and he's a great guy. I'm not saying he doesn't mean what he's saying opinion-wise. Just that he's not being a dick, even though it may seem that way (and even though he looks like a dick! ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member BaronK Posted February 23, 2011 Member Share Posted February 23, 2011 Warriors 2. Can't get into that. Focused only when about LKYan and CWong's characters. Everyone is ugly. Dean Shek. WC goes out the window in the end. We do get the famous CWong flying kick though. Drunken Master. All FF except for when HJL is on screen, then back to FF. Can't stand it. DM2? Hell yes. DM? Fu.. no. SitES. P-U. Secret Rivals. Just indie stuff. Nothing more special than anything any of the stars made. Fights have too many kicks in them and lose the specialness of the kickers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Iron Boat Posted February 23, 2011 Member Share Posted February 23, 2011 To Kill a Mastermind, it was fun to finally see it but the best part of the film are the introductory fight scenes, its all downhill from there. Some may not like this but nearly every LKL film is overated to me with the exception of 8 Diagram Pole Fighter, and though I like Enter and Return to the 36 Chambers they are flawed, Return has too much bad comedy and the original becomes boring and anti climatic when he leaves Shaolin. My Young Auntie was almost a perfect merger of Fu and comedy but I dislike that LKL made the film about him considering he did all the fighting at the end, its Kara's movie let her be the hero! Legendary Weapons I hate, the film is nothing but an excuse for the Lau brothers to spar, they may be great teachers and the masterminds behind the best action scenes at Shaws but I prefer the matinee idols, they just look better on screen. Executioners From Shaolin, despite my past criticisms, is a true classic, there's way more good stuff than bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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