Member DiP Posted December 28, 2010 Member Share Posted December 28, 2010 DTG certainly doesn't hold a good example of a fine constucted story and good acting but I'd not compare it to something like An Empress And The Warriors. At least it's complemented by good action and its' aim is just to entertain and not take itself seriously. That's where An Empress and the Warriors fails for the opposite reasons. It's worse in terms of writing, acting, direction, production values, action and it took itself too seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member ShaOW!linDude Posted December 28, 2010 Member Share Posted December 28, 2010 I'd pretty much agree with DiP's astute assessment. DTG, with its MA, is nowhere near as bad as "An Empress and the Warriors" which is practically a non-MA flick. Donnie didn't do jack in that movie. Granted, the MA in DTG is stylish and performed with flair and posturing. (Much like Yen's "Fist of Fury" but less ridiculous IMO.) But it's essentially a superhero film as it is based off of a comic therefore I expect that. And the melodramatic angst is tiresome but......what are you going to do? (Yeah, yeah, yeah, no one understands you, blah, blah, blah. Go hit somebody. You'll feel better. I know I will.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member SimonMW Posted December 28, 2010 Member Share Posted December 28, 2010 To each his own. I like all the action (even the boxing matches) in the movie so for me it's one of the best MA action movies in recent years with more than 3 good fights. I said they were good, not terrible. But they weren't mind blowing. They are by far the best screen showcase of Wing Chun though. I did like the boxing matches unlike many here since I think boxing makes a great match up to Wing Chun. Maybe it is because I'm getting older, but I haven't been utterly wowed by screen fighting since I saw SPL for the very first time. Police Story and Pedicab Driver are from the 80s so I wouldn't count them as recent efforts. They aren't recent efforts no. But the reason I mention them is because they are held up as pinnacle points in the relative actors film output (DM2 aside, and accepting that PD bombed at the box office). it seems odd that people are complaining about the quantity of fights in DTG rather than the quality. I would much rather have the latter. SPL only really had two proper fights and one very minor scuffle in a hotel lobby. Yet I don't hear anyone complaining about fight numbers in that one. Although I'm sure you've seen it (many times?) Simon, Donnie fans who need regular fight fixes in their films can always check out "In the Line of Duty 4". That film never seemed to be more than 10 minutes away from a (decent) scrap! Too many times J! It was the film that I first saw Donnie Yen in. Although I do find it to be much more of a case of too many fights with too much generic kickboxing. It did have Cynthia Khan in it though. Not a bad thing at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member blue_skies Posted December 30, 2010 Member Share Posted December 30, 2010 They aren't recent efforts no. But the reason I mention them is because they are held up as pinnacle points in the relative actors film output (DM2 aside, and accepting that PD bombed at the box office). it seems odd that people are complaining about the quantity of fights in DTG rather than the quality. I would much rather have the latter. SPL only really had two proper fights and one very minor scuffle in a hotel lobby. Yet I don't hear anyone complaining about fight numbers in that one. Maybe no one else is but I certainly could have used more in SPL... now I come to think about it Flashpoint could have used another couple of decent sequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member ShaOW!linDude Posted December 31, 2010 Member Share Posted December 31, 2010 Maybe no one else is but I certainly could have used more in SPL... now I come to think about it Flashpoint could have used another couple of decent sequences. I wholeheartedly agree. On my initial viewings with both of those I was pleased. But after rewatching them a few months later I thought they could've done with more fight scenes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Lionclaw Posted December 31, 2010 Member Share Posted December 31, 2010 I wholeheartedly agree. On my initial viewings with both of those I was pleased. But after rewatching them a few months later I thought they could've done with more fight scenes. I agree with the lack of fights also, but I think SPL is never challenged for it becasue the story holds up very well on its own and the movie makes you care for the characters. Flashpoint's story and movie as a whole was nothing special but the end pay off is so massive that most people probably forget about the movie's problems. In my opinion SPL will always be the better movie but Flashpoints ending action scenes boosts the movie rating by at least a point and is worth full price on Yen's and Chou's fight alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member ShaOW!linDude Posted December 31, 2010 Member Share Posted December 31, 2010 Lionclaw ---- I would absotively, posilutely agree with that assessment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member dyenboy Posted January 3, 2011 Member Share Posted January 3, 2011 I like this movie but did not love it. The action sequence is where this movie shines but the downfall to me was the story and cheesiness. For some reason, I did not like the viillan. The build up to the final fight scene was good but the end was too one sided. It is an entertaining popcorn flix but a serious movie it is not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator One Armed Boxer Posted January 4, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 4, 2011 Flashpoints ending action scenes boosts the movie rating by at least a point and is worth full price on Yen's and Chou's fight alone. I think you could only call it a "fight" up until the point where they both drop onto the ground level....upon which point the fight simply becomes Donnie Yen training on a human punchbag who just happens to be Colin Chou. The build up to the final fight scene was good but the end was too one sided. One sided is a pretty good was to describe the majority of Donnie Yen's final fight sequences in his post Yuen Woo-Ping era...you have to go back to the days of 'Drunken Tai-Chi' & 'In The Line of Duty 4' to see Donnie facing off in a fairly evenly matched showdown in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Lionclaw Posted January 4, 2011 Member Share Posted January 4, 2011 I think you could only call it a "fight" up until the point where they both drop onto the ground level....upon which point the fight simply becomes Donnie Yen training on a human punchbag who just happens to be Colin Chou. One sided is a pretty good was to describe the majority of Donnie Yen's final fight sequences in his post Yuen Woo-Ping era...you have to go back to the days of 'Drunken Tai-Chi' & 'In The Line of Duty 4' to see Donnie facing off in a fairly evenly matched showdown in my opinion. Dragon Tiger Gate's final battle might have been one sided but I wouldn't go as far as to call Flashpoint's the same. Colin got a lot of decent hits on Yen. Besides, I think its safe to say you can't get much more one sided than Steven Seagal's fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member ShaOW!linDude Posted January 4, 2011 Member Share Posted January 4, 2011 Besides, I think its safe to say you can't get much more one sided than Steven Seagal's fights. Amen to that and pass the gravy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator One Armed Boxer Posted January 5, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 5, 2011 Besides, I think its safe to say you can't get much more one sided than Steven Seagal's fights. Agreed....however I would also say that discussing the quality of Donnie Yen`s fights against Steven Seagal`s is completely ludicrous. Back to your point though, I`m with you 100%. Actually me & my friend both cheered when Seagal gets punched in the nose during the final showdown in `The Glimmer Man`, producing 2 very neat and tidy lines of blood from each nostril, before he sends the bad guy flying through some very wobbly looking steel gates! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Shawoholic Posted January 5, 2011 Member Share Posted January 5, 2011 Well, as Seagal was somehow drawn into this I think about every movie he has made in past 2 years is lot more enjoyable than DTG:nerd: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member ShaOW!linDude Posted January 5, 2011 Member Share Posted January 5, 2011 Agreed....however I would also say that discussing the quality of Donnie Yen`s fights against Steven Seagal`s is completely ludicrous. Back to your point though, I`m with you 100%. Actually me & my friend both cheered when Seagal gets punched in the nose during the final showdown in `The Glimmer Man`, producing 2 very neat and tidy lines of blood from each nostril, before he sends the bad guy flying through some very wobbly looking steel gates! Dude! I know! When I first watched that movie I was in shock. "What just happened? Did.....did Seagal just get punched in the face? In his own movie? 'Bout time!" You know, if a hero doesn't get a little bunged up in his fight I think it takes away from his victory. IMPO I think The Glimmer Man was the last decent movie Seagal starred in. Some of his later efforts have been alright but nothing on that par. Well, I'd have to say Exit Wounds was really good, too. But a lot of his dtv efforts just aren't up to snuff and I have to disagree with Shawoholic when contrasting them against DTG. (Sorry, dude.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member blue_skies Posted January 6, 2011 Member Share Posted January 6, 2011 One sided is a pretty good was to describe the majority of Donnie Yen's final fight sequences in his post Yuen Woo-Ping era...you have to go back to the days of 'Drunken Tai-Chi' & 'In The Line of Duty 4' to see Donnie facing off in a fairly evenly matched showdown in my opinion. I agree with you and Shaolin dude the hero needs to take a beating along the way through the film, getting bruised and bloodied. I have not liked how easy Donnie Yen has had it in a lot of his films. I liked to feel like the hero might not win. One Armed Boxer, you forgotten about the not so great bodyguards and assassins where Donnie really takes a pounding before going one-on-one with a horse charging towards him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member DiP Posted January 6, 2011 Member Share Posted January 6, 2011 I can see that some of you guys are still stuck in that 80s exchanging fight style. Keep in mind that fight choreography can be done in many different ways and convey many different things so it's always going to be that people won't do fight choreography for the same reason. That's why each and every choreographer has his own style. Sammo has his, Jackie his, Donnie his, Jaa his etc. With different styles comes different themes. Donnie can inject some Sammo in the choreography or just adjust his style according to the movies he does and actually give room for his co-stars (some of his post-Yuen Woo Ping movies are rather inconsistent than vice versa), but on the surface he's is mostly about power/technique/execution/variety. He's no Sammo/traditionalist. HK fight choreography is without a doubt well known for exchanges (attacks, blocks/delivering, countering) but it's outdated now. HK choreographers are taking huge steps fast in evolving their fight choreography and gets stuck for quite a long time after each trend which in turn leads to oversaturation and duplicated attempts of creating something new. Although there's few recent movies that successfully attempts the style, it's going to expire sooner and I can't see no reason why it should always be about that. As far as we go with Hong Kong martial arts movies these days, no one is doing anything new except for Donnie so we should be grateful to have at least one guy doing something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator One Armed Boxer Posted January 6, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 6, 2011 IMPO I think The Glimmer Man was the last decent movie Seagal starred in. Some of his later efforts have been alright but nothing on that par. I would definitely recommend checking out 'Renegade (or 'Urban', depending on what country you live in) Justice' and 'Pistol Whipped'...they both have Seagal back as the tough talking break somebodys hand then ask questions later type of character he played in his glory days of 'Out for Justice' and 'Above the Law'. One Armed Boxer, you forgotten about the not so great bodyguards and assassins where Donnie really takes a pounding before going one-on-one with a horse charging towards him. You're right, I think I acually blocked that scene from my memory. The one-on-one with the horse deal actually made me laugh out loud when I first watched it, completely ridiculous. Give me Chiba & a bull any day of the week. I can see that some of you guys are still stuck in that 80s exchanging fight style. I don't think the discussion was really about the 80's fighting style, which I will openly admit to loving, it was more about Donnie's fights always leaning towards being a little one-sided. At no point during the finale's of 'Dragon Tiger Gate', 'Flash Point', 'Ip Man', or 'Legend of the Fist' did I think "wow, this guy might actually lose". It was always a case of how much is Donnie going to whup the other guys ass. If that's his choreography style then fair enough, however as others have mentioned, I like it when the hero gets a little bruised and battered on his way to victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Morgoth Bauglir Posted January 6, 2011 Member Share Posted January 6, 2011 If that's his choreography style then fair enough, however as others have mentioned, I like it when the hero gets a little bruised and battered on his way to victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member DiP Posted January 6, 2011 Member Share Posted January 6, 2011 I don't think the discussion was really about the 80's fighting style, which I will openly admit to loving, it was more about Donnie's fights always leaning towards being a little one-sided. At no point during the finale's of 'Dragon Tiger Gate', 'Flash Point', 'Ip Man', or 'Legend of the Fist' did I think "wow, this guy might actually lose". It was always a case of how much is Donnie going to whup the other guys ass. If that's his choreography style then fair enough, however as others have mentioned, I like it when the hero gets a little bruised and battered on his way to victory. Donnie's choreography mainly works for himself so you don't often get the "the hero might actually lose" thought, the same way as in Bruce Lee and Tony Jaa movies. But if you just want equal bruises and battering from both parties then you can see him get bruised and battered enough in the finales of SPL, Flash Point, Bodyguards & Assassins (not really a finale but the scene with Cung Le is Donnie's last fight in the movie) and Ip Man 2. Plus there's also Asian Cop - High Voltage (vs Roy Cheung), Legend of the Wolf (vs Ben Lam) and 14 Blades (vs Kate Tsui). If you're talking one-sided in general, I can name more from the post-Yuen Woo Ping era that shows the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator One Armed Boxer Posted January 6, 2011 Moderator Share Posted January 6, 2011 Morgoth....Donnie's about as battered and bruised there as Seagal is here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member ShaOW!linDude Posted January 6, 2011 Member Share Posted January 6, 2011 I can see that some of you guys are still stuck in that 80s exchanging fight style. You're right. To some degree, I am. Kind of miss it to tell you the truth. Always nice to see a comparison of styles. Keep in mind that fight choreography can be done in many different ways and convey many different things so it's always going to be that people won't do fight choreography for the same reason. I agree. In regards to Seagal, when he came on the scene he was phenomenal, breaking bones and flinging guys all over the place. But after 5-6 movies it got to be old hat. Where was someone to give him a run for his money? Don't get me wrong. It's great to see the hero give the villain an all out whupping sometimes but not every time. Having said that.....Seagal would be a hard to double, I think. HK fight choreography is without a doubt well known for exchanges (attacks, blocks/delivering, countering) but it's outdated now. Again I agree. And it's a shame. But I think it's become outdated because choreography is hard to do. Especially when non-MA pop-stars are being used to perform it! (Sorry. Soapbox. I'll get down.) So, yes, that leads to an over-saturation of techniques and such. It's a shame, really. DY usually does really good exchanges in his choreography IMPO. Granted they do get a little one-sided but most fights tend to towards their finales. Seems to be the accepted custom. He doesn't mind getting a little dusted up. I like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Michael L. Posted January 6, 2011 Member Share Posted January 6, 2011 I just watched Dragon Tiger Gate about 10 minutes ago and here is my take: It is an awful movie. I think there was one scene in the entire movie that was not shot at an odd angle for dramatic effect, full of pointless CGI and/or using a moving camera and that was an obvious Nokia phone product placement. I think that there was even CGI to show Tiger and his friends eating a meal. I had a professor in art school who once said "You should all know how to paint by now. I'm going to make sure you know when to stop painting." This movie needed that professor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member blue_skies Posted January 6, 2011 Member Share Posted January 6, 2011 I just watched Dragon Tiger Gate about 10 minutes ago and here is my take: It is an awful movie. I think there was one scene in the entire movie that was not shot at an odd angle for dramatic effect, full of pointless CGI and/or using a moving camera and that was an obvious Nokia phone product placement. I think that there was even CGI to show Tiger and his friends eating a meal. I had a professor in art school who once said "You should all know how to paint by now. I'm going to make sure you know when to stop painting." This movie needed that professor! I must admit I'm not a fan of CGI in films in general. I think it's fine and acceptable for science-fiction movies and to a degree in fantasy/comic-book films. But what I dislike is when it's used for cheapness, or just for the sake of it. Take ninja assassin that film could have used practical effects for blood and instead of a pop star a skilled martial artist who's good with weapons. It would have improved the film no end as well. but as you say film-makers are using the tools for the sake of it. Rather than using them just to aid the film-maker's vision. The best CGI is when you don't even think of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Drunken Monk Posted January 6, 2011 Member Share Posted January 6, 2011 I'd like to chime in regarding the CGI. I semi-enjoyed "Dragon Tiger Gate" despite it being an instantly forgettable film but I really didn't like the CGI. I just don't think martial arts films need it unless it's necessary to the world or intrinsic to the plot. This was a flaw in the film. It made it a little too silly and less enjoyable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Lionclaw Posted January 6, 2011 Member Share Posted January 6, 2011 Agreed....however I would also say that discussing the quality of Donnie Yen`s fights against Steven Seagal`s is completely ludicrous. Back to your point though, I`m with you 100%. Actually me & my friend both cheered when Seagal gets punched in the nose during the final showdown in `The Glimmer Man`, producing 2 very neat and tidy lines of blood from each nostril, before he sends the bad guy flying through some very wobbly looking steel gates! Your right when you said its ludicrous, but when I think of one sided Steven Seagal is the next thing to come to mind.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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