Transition of HK movie industry to China

[thelastweaponmaster]

Well said, One Armed Boxer.

I agree that the one main challenge facing the Chinese movie industry (particularly the martial arts movie genre) is the finding of new blood to replace the aging stars and directors/choreographers. Donnie Yen can only do so many movies in the next couple of years before he burns out or audiences get tired of seeing him. Jet Li is still doing a couple of noteworthy films a year. Jackie is but a shadow of his former self. Ditto for Sammo. Yuen Wo-ping can only stretch himself so far. The genre needs to find some new stars to get people excited about the genre. In a nation of a billion or two, you would think a few would emerge from the martial arts academies in China to seize the limelight.

I don't think the recent movies are promoting a pro-Communism point of view. Rather it is promoting a pro-China attitude, as illustrated by the major events that happened in the country in the last few years (such as the summer Olympics and the Shanghai Expo). And as the country prosper, so does the Chinese film industry (which the HK film industry has been absorbed by) with ample funding, a growing demand by its population for film entertainment and a boom in theatre construction.

And with the bigger budgets come the films, much grander in scale, recreating historical vista with grand outside sets and realistic computer effects; no longer studio-bound or with bare bones outside country sides. And as the film industry and audience mature, the plots will become more varied and resistant to government interference (which will become less intrusive as time goes by). So enjoy these grand films as they are made and released .... while we wait for the next wave of new stars and directors.

[Rhythm-X]

But for now, for me the positives outweigh the negatives, yes we have to endure somewhat ridiculous nationalism from some movies, and if we ever watch a cop drama chances are it will say at the start it's set before 1997 so the film-makers can get away with just that little bit more, but at least we get our action fix, which if you look at the period from 1997 - 2003 was completely devoid of any excitement, and that for me is enough.

Depends on how you define "excitement." That period saw some really interesting filmmakers like Pang Ho-Cheung and Fruit Chan either making their debuts or finding their grooves.

Stephen Chow went global with SHAOLIN SOCCER.

Andrew Lau made the best films of his career to date with the INFERNAL AFFAIRS trilogy, eventually garnering an overdue Oscar for Martin Scorcese in the process. He co-directed with Alan Mak, who directed the very good A WAR NAMED DESIRE during this same time period.

Eric Kot transitioned from largely irritating comedic performer to batshit crazy arthouse director and greatly improved mainstream actor.

Dante Lam emerged co-directing BEAST COPS with Gordon Chan and then solo directed the classic JIANG HU ~ THE TRIAD ZONE.

The Milkyway Image creative machine was utterly on fire - TOO MANY WAYS TO BE NO. 1, THE LONGEST NITE, THE ODD ONE DIES, THE MISSION, SPACKED OUT, WHERE A GOOD MAN GOES and that's just scratching the surface of that company's output.

Lo Lieh wrapped up his screen career with a huge amount of class in the indie GLASS TEARS shortly before he passed away.

Lau Kar-Leung re-teamed with producer Mona Fong to make DRUNKEN MONKEY for a newly reactivated Shaw Brothers... a solid and entertaining throwback to the old school that also put Wu Jing back on the big screen a couple of years before SPL.

Jackie Chan launched his JCE production company, quickly showing a willingness to nurture young talent - this led to Stephen Fung getting a chance to direct HOUSE OF FURY.

Some HK co-produced wuxia movie whose name escapes me made well over $100 million dollars in the US alone (while playing in Mandarin!), even though its lead actor wasn't really associated with the genre, and won multiple Oscars including a richly deserved award for Peter Pau, one of the great living cinematographers.

The Hong Kong animation industry stepped up with MY LIFE AS MCDULL, a franchise-launcher and one of the best films of the decade from any country, animated or otherwise.

Tsui Hark, in the middle of an overall career downturn, still managed to set the template for global action cinema in the '00s with his widely imitated TIME AND TIDE.

Before his acclaimed string of big budgeted Donnie Yen action movies, Wilson Yip kicked off the '00s zombie revival with his creative, low-budget 1998 black comedy BIO-ZOMBIE.

Anita Yuen arguably sabotaged her own career with a blisteringly psychotic, cannot-look-away performance in Daniel Lee's sorely underrated portrait of a marital (not martial) apocalypse, TILL DEATH DO US PART.

There is more, of course, but we all have shit to do. But there's no question I'll continue to defend this period of HK cinema - there was tons of interesting stuff going on amid the perceived "death throes" of the industry (which is still making movies in 2010).

[One Armed Boxer]

But there's no question I'll continue to defend this period of HK cinema - there was tons of interesting stuff going on amid the perceived "death throes" of the industry (which is still making movies in 2010).

Hi Rhythm-X, I am in complete agreement with you regarding most of the movies you`ve named, and your comments would stand up....if this forum was on lovehkfim or twitch, however as I mentioned early in my first post, this is kungfucinema.com, and this thread is in the Modern Martial Arts Cinema forum, so my opinions were based on the state of this type of cinema.

The only movies you`ve named that come close to fitting that category are `Drunken Monkey`, `House of Fury`, and `Time & Tide`. Yes `Time & Tide` is a classic agreed, however it hardly features an abundance of martial arts action, the other 2 have their fans I know, but for me they were both light-weight thorw-away movies. I doubt anybody will ever mention `House of Fury` when talking about modern kung-fu classics, and `Drunken Monkey` actually took me 3 times to sit through as I found the comedy so gratingly unbearable, even more so than the comedy Lau Kar Leung had in his 70`s & 80`s output!

Jackie Chan launched his JCE production company, quickly showing a willingness to nurture young talent - this led to Stephen Fung getting a chance to direct HOUSE OF FURY.

I respect your opinion, however if Chan really had a "willingness to nurture young talent", then we should have had any number of members from his stunt team step-up and take the spotlight by now, people like Bradley Allan, instead he remains at the forefront playing to an increasingly dis-interested audience. & whatever happened to the winner of the TV show he created to find the next big martial arts star!?

In a nation of a billion or two, you would think a few would emerge from the martial arts academies in China to seize the limelight.

Agreed...however it is interesting to see that with the exception of Jet Li (forgive me if I`ve missed anyone else), nobody during the heyday of Hong Kong action cinema was actually from Mainland China, at least from a living and working point of view. Everybody spoke Cantonese (which came hand in hand with the love it or hate it Cantonese humor), and considered themselves Hong Kong natives, which is why it is so surprising such a vast amount of charismatic, multi-skilled performers dominated the screen for so long. I am sure there are plenty of skilled wu-shu practitioners on the Mainland, however even with that, the question of if we`ll ever see the crazy stunts and go for broke fighting style again remains to be answered.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

A HK movie of today, will have to cater to most asian markets, mainly the mainland market. And with all the different censorship rules, the red tape, the investor demands and so on, it is extremely hard not to sacrifice your artistic vision, if you want to make an economically viable product. This is also true of cinema from other parts of the world, of course. But is especially true when it comes to HK cinema.

Imagine you being a filmmaker, trying to shoot an exciting action scene in china, and some mainland bureaucrat douchebag turning up, and telling you that the police have to turn up within one minute in the scene according to local censorship rules! How in the fuck are you gonna film a prolonged shoot out sequence then?

Or some malaysian equivalent, telling you to shoot or re-shoot your ending, so a possibly vengeful protagonist is jailed or dies, and doesn't just walk into the sunset unpunished! I would go apeshiznitty on these motherfuckers, if it was me!

Im amazed there even is a HK film industry left, with all these retarded restrictions. Hollywood died long ago, and others will follow, if the artistic visions of filmmakers are suppressed in this way!

I despise censorship, politically correct facism and in the case of china or malaysia/indonesia, just political and religious facism stifling filmmakers.

It was once my dream to work in that industry, it isn't anymore.

[One Armed Boxer]

Imagine you being a filmmaker, trying to shoot an exciting action scene in china, and some mainland bureaucrat douchebag turning up, and telling you that the police have to turn up within one minute in the scene according to local censorship rules! How in the fuck are you gonna film a prolonged shoot out sequence then?

Or some malaysian equivalent, telling you to shoot or re-shoot your ending, so a possibly vengeful protagonist is jailed or dies, and doesn't just walk into the sunset unpunished! I would go apeshiznitty on these motherfuckers, if it was me!

Agreed, that would indeed be artistically suffocating, however although it doesn't invalidate what you say, the question remains of when exactly was the last Hong Kong movie to have an exciting prolonged shoot out sequence? In my personal opinion we had been devoid of any for a long time even before China came into the picture.

However it is still possible to pull it off, I enjoyed the final showdown in 'Exiled' immensely, and the situation was set-up so that there could be no cop interference, along with it being based in Macau, so maybe that's why the censorship boards had no problem with it. It seems that as long as movies concern gangsters and they get their eventual come uppance, these type of movies can get away with more than standard cop movies, another immediate example that springs to mind is Dennis Law's 'Bad Blood'.

Regarding your comment about the vengeful protagonist walking off into the sunset, yes what you say is true, but actually it was rare for that to happen in HK movies anyway, dating right back to Chang Cheh's output such as 'Vengeance', up to more modern day fare such as 'Hong Kong Godfather' & 'Angry Ranger', the protagonist of the piece never got away clean, either having to face the cops or death (or depending which ending you watch of 'Above the Law'....both!)

[DiP]

The Milkyway Image creative machine was utterly on fire - TOO MANY WAYS TO BE NO. 1, THE LONGEST NITE, THE ODD ONE DIES, THE MISSION, SPACKED OUT, WHERE A GOOD MAN GOES and that's just scratching the surface of that company's output.

And they still are, never slowing down and still producing original and long-lasting modern classics. It's been a while now but they are shooting 4 projects - Life Without Principle, Punished, Motorway and a commercial drama (as a way to earn enough money to shoot preferable projects) - at the same time as of now.

[TheKungFuRobber]

On 08/10/2010 at 3:31 AM, Stuntman Jules said:

I have no love for China's government. Biggest bunch of stick up their ass hypocrites going. I am a bit of a Marxist/socialist politically but I hate them. Marxist at its core is about freedom, if anything, the communist People's Republic of China of today is more of a fascist regime. They brutally impose their will on others. They whine about the Japanese during WWII while they hypocritically torture Falun Gong members with sex toys and give women who don't register their pregnancies forced abortions. The Japanese today, if they are a bit pompous, proud and have great reluctance admitting their war-like past and revere their war criminals in a Shinto shrine, at least aren't still running comfort houses and doing live vivisections. Mao also killed more of his own people than the Nihonjin could have dreamed.

 

I think partially the Chinese are just jealous of the Japanese because they went from a war-scarred, backwards defeated country to an economic superpower over night (though this was mostly because the US wanted one big anti-communist base in Asia and so did what they could to ensure this) whereas with China it has been much messier.

 

The Mainland handover has all but ruined HK cinema. Zhang Yimou's stuff is very beautifully made, though yes, the message of Hero is very pro-communist and "end justifies the means", but I love his films regardless. Hong Kong cinema is so drab compared to what it used to be, though. At least the Mainland stuff has some spectacle and good production values even if half it is government-sanctioned communist propaganda.

 

As for the gray lens filters, that is stolen from Hollywood. Hollywood does that cliche color drain fliter on its heavy stuff starting with Saving Private Ryan, Black Hawk Down, etc. The Chinese are just mimicking that. The Mainland films, in my eyes, mimic the high concept Hollywood stuff as much as the Chinese themselves are copying America's capitalism (so much for being Marxists).

Couldn't be more correct mate. Hopefully one day the CPC will crack, it's actions go against everything Marx ever stood for. As for the HK film industry, hopefully it will improve in the future. ✌

[masterofoneinchpunch]

18 minutes ago, TheKungFuRobber said:

Couldn't be more correct mate. Hopefully one day the CPC will crack, it's actions go against everything Marx ever stood for. As for the HK film industry, hopefully it will improve in the future. ✌

What actions does the CPC go against Marx? 

[TheKungFuRobber]

20 minutes ago, masterofoneinchpunch said:

What actions does the CPC go against Marx? 

Consider the amount of social inequality which exists throughout China, and the profits made from the unjust exploitation of migrant labour by which goes into producing Apple products and cheap junk, which has led to mass suicides - how can one even think about calling China a socialist country with all this shit which goes on over there? If the CCP was really Marxist, there wouldn't be this kind of exploitation, but still, simply look at the amount of corruption which exists in the CCP.

[kami]

On 13.1.2016 at 0:57 AM, TheKungFuRobber said:

Consider the amount of social inequality which exists throughout China, and the profits made from the unjust exploitation of migrant labour by which goes into producing Apple products and cheap junk, which has led to mass suicides - how can one even think about calling China a socialist country with all this shit which goes on over there? If the CCP was really Marxist, there wouldn't be this kind of exploitation, but still, simply look at the amount of corruption which exists in the CCP.

I am with you on that. China at its current state combines capitalist exploitation and consumerism with stalinist lack of freedom and reactionary social values. No wonder most Chinese dramas don't speak to a western audience.

It's in equal parts fascinating and shameful that the whole film industry of a country as large as China produces noticeably less interesting movies in a year than the 8-million-city Hongkong in, let's say, 1992.

[Sheng]

On 13.1.2016 at 0:57 AM, TheKungFuRobber said:

Consider the amount of social inequality which exists throughout China, and the profits made from the unjust exploitation of migrant labour by which goes into producing Apple products and cheap junk, which has led to mass suicides - how can one even think about calling China a socialist country with all this shit which goes on over there? If the CCP was really Marxist, there wouldn't be this kind of exploitation, but still, simply look at the amount of corruption which exists in the CCP.

Well, it certainly is worrying that inequality in China is getting closer & closer to American proportions, for sure. However, discussions how "socialist" today's China really is or isn't are meaningless semantics to Chinese people, who for the most part don't really gives a hoot about what you call the system. Is China "Marxist"? Is the US "the land of the free and the home of the brave"? Does the pope shit in the wood? Is a bear Catholic...?

Aiight, I'ma switch off the polemics for now... You're refering to "mass suicides"... the suicide rate in Korea, in South Korea, and Japan is actually considerably higher than in China. Stats on this matter are controversial, true. But interestingly, the University of Hong Kong has published a recent study (in 2014) that the suicides rate in China fell dramatically and is now supposedly amongst the lowest in the world. Check this ECONOMIST article: http://www.economist.com/news/china/21605942-first-two-articles-chinas-suicide-rate-looks-effect-urbanisation-back

 As somebody who's been travelling in China frequently for the past two decades and seen truly staggering economic advancement of people's lives over the years, one of the most remarkable (and outside of China least understood) phenomena that I observed has been the sheer optimism that people have in their capacity to improve their lives materially.  And even today, in the light of economic slowdowns and environmental desasters it is interesting to observe that this future optimism still seems to continue. You'll find a pertinent piece on this trend here: https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/01/05/chinese-people-are-most-optimistic-world/

 

On 15.1.2016 at 8:17 AM, kami said:

China at its current state combines capitalist exploitation and consumerism with stalinist lack of freedom and reactionary social values.

There's a hell of a lot to criticize in China, no doubt, but comparisms to stalinism are as brain-dead as caricatures in nationalist Eastern-European papers depicting Angela Merkel with a Hitler moustache. Patently absurd drivel of that ilk suggests that you probably never spend a minute-and-a-half of your life in the Country that you presume to have a "stalinist lack of freedom".

[TheKungFuRobber]

2 hours ago, Sheng said:

Well, it certainly is worrying that inequality in China is getting closer & closer to American proportions, for sure. However, discussions how "socialist" today's China really is or isn't are meaningless semantics to Chinese people, who for the most part don't really gives a hoot about what you call the system. Is China "Marxist"? Is the US "the land of the free and the home of the brave"? Does the pope shit in the wood? Is a bear Catholic...?

Aiight, I'ma switch off the polemics for now... You're refering to "mass suicides"... the suicide rate in Korea, in South Korea, and Japan is actually considerably higher than in China. Stats on this matter are controversial, true. But interestingly, the University of Hong Kong has published a recent study (in 2014) that the suicides rate in China fell dramatically and is now supposedly amongst the lowest in the world. Check this ECONOMIST article: http://www.economist.com/news/china/21605942-first-two-articles-chinas-suicide-rate-looks-effect-urbanisation-back

 As somebody who's been travelling in China frequently for the past two decades and seen truly staggering economic advancement of people's lives over the years, one of the most remarkable (and outside of China least understood) phenomena that I observed has been the sheer optimism that people have in their capacity to improve their lives materially.  And even today, in the light of economic slowdowns and environmental desasters it is interesting to observe that this future optimism still seems to continue. You'll find a pertinent piece on this trend here: https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/01/05/chinese-people-are-most-optimistic-world/

 

There's a hell of a lot to criticize in China, no doubt, but comparisms to stalinism are as brain-dead as caricatures in nationalist Eastern-European papers depicting Angela Merkel with a Hitler moustache. Patently absurd drivel of that ilk suggests that you probably never spend a minute-and-a-half of your life in the Country that you presume to have a "stalinist lack of freedom".

Well I am not surprised if the suicide rates as a whole are quite low, because without a doubt quality of life in China has improved massively since the Nationalist era. As well as the economic growth, the literacy rates have risen to 96.4%, compared to somewhere between 15-20% in 1949. However, it would still be totally wrong to ignore the serious issues which do exist in China related to the politics.

[kami]

13 hours ago, Sheng said:

There's a hell of a lot to criticize in China, no doubt, but comparisms to stalinism are as brain-dead as caricatures in nationalist Eastern-European papers depicting Angela Merkel with a Hitler moustache. Patently absurd drivel of that ilk suggests that you probably never spend a minute-and-a-half of your life in the Country that you presume to have a "stalinist lack of freedom".

Are you unable to answer without resorting to insults? Stalinism doesn't just mean Soviet Union under Stalin, it describes a certain system that includes lack of real elections, one party rule, no freedom of the press, a pseudo-socialist ideology, and the PRC fullfills these criteria. East Germany was a stalinist country even if you enjoyed a lot of personal freedoms there. But you also lacked political freedoms, that's what brands the system, and the Chinese lack most of these political freedoms, too. And you can clearly see it in many movies. Progress has been made, of course, economical and political, and the oppression is softer when compared to Mao's times, personal freedoms are bigger. But these freedoms are no rights but presents from the party that can be revoked easily.
Your need to defend this system from justified accusations just because YOU can or could live there happily (and are able to leave anytime) is just cynical. And the tendency to overrate your own personal experiences when describing a political system is plainly ignorant.

And yes, I stayed in China for a few nice and informative weeks for holiday, and no, I don't base my opinion about China on this visit. 

[Sheng]

Well, first off, I think what is truly ignorant is the reflexive and grossly one-sided throwaway dismissal of China you articulated in your first post.

 

Now, thanks for breaking down your interpretation of stalinism. So stalinism describes a "pseudo-socialist system"? And East-Germany was a "stalinist country"? Dunno, I admittedly never felt the urge to visit East Germany while it was laying behind the iron curtain, but I think life and personal liberties (not to mention travel opportunities) in the former GDR and today's China are hardly comparable.

 

Furthermore, I believe that I don't have the tendency to "overrate my own personal experiences", even when they're the result of a lotta travelling in a lotta different provinces over two decades. I happen to keenly follow Chinese political history, literature and film and base my assessments primarily on written sources in order to arrive at what I hope is a balanced perspective on the complexities of nowadays China. If all this makes me an apologist in your eyes who "defends the system", well, then you're probably too biased and short-tempered to even take notice how I opened my response to your initial post.

 

If you read my posts in the past you also ought to have noticed that I certainly don't qualify as an apologist of the (Mainland-) Chinese film industry either. But as opposed to you I  believe that it still produces some excellent films year after year, good dramas included, even if these "do not speak to Western audiences". But is a film only worthy of recognition if it speaks to Western audiences? DEAREST, a huge hit in China, a China-made and China-casted film helmed by a HK director, was devastatingly brilliant, but apparantly didn't speak to Western audiences at all (to my knowledge there wasn't even a DVD or BD release outside of HK and China). To look at it from another angle, recent favourites of mine like CHI-RAQ or NIGHT CRAWLER are almost guaranteed not to resonate with Chinese or Asian audiences. Which doesn't make them lesser films.