Transition of HK movie industry to China

[thelastweaponmaster]

Hi everyone;

I was just wondering what is everyone's opinion of the transition of the Hong Kong (HK) movie industry to a China's based one. Is it good or bad for the martial arts movie industry?

With the death of the glory days of the big studio era (Shaw Brothers, Golden Harvest) and the slowdown in available financing for HK based films over the 1990's and early 2000's, the state of the industry was not good. Coupled with major HK players such as Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Chow Yun Fat, Sammo Hung and John Woo, along with others, fleeing the local industry, and going West and trying to cash in as much as possible before Hollywood decided that they weren't the cash cows that they had hoped for.

However with China's growing prosperity over the last 10 years and financing becoming available, HK personnel are moving to China. Chinese films are now getting much larger budgets than the past studio and HK films, sets and location shooting are much more extravagant (just look at the Hengdian Studios) and running time is not tied to the hour and a half mentality (so as to fit a double bill into a night's showing). I know people have complained that these films have become nationalistic propaganda films with content having to be approved by the State in order to get financing. However the storylines are not much different than past HK efforts such as Fist of Fury, The Way of the Dragon and Tsui Hark 'Once Upon A Time in China' trilogy. I am thinking that with the maturing of the industry and audience, better storylines will develop, along with the independent/smaller filmmakers in China and different voices will be found.

There will also be more American/China co-productions (i.e. the great 'The Forbidden Kingdom', the new 'Karate Kid' (haven't made up my mind on that film), the forthcoming 'Mulan', etc. There is still the occasional quality HK film, as evidenced by 'Gallants'. Even the local Chinese/HK dvd releases of these films have been of high quality with great pictures and quality extras, much improved from the past.

In the meantime, enjoy the riches that we are now seeing (ie. Red Cliff, The Warlords, the Ip Man films, Bodyguard and Assassins, 14 Blades, etc). I am just hoping that new directing and starring talent will surface before Donnie Yen kills himself making all of the films that he is presently linked to.

I apologize for this long winded spiel. I am a long time lurker on this site that doesn't post too often but I have been catching up on numerous Chinese films recently and getting excited (again) about the state of the industry. Just want to get other people's opinion on this. Thanks.

[blue_skies]

While the production values have improved immensely and often they are all-round better films. I personally find that they don't deliver the same enjoyment as my favourite Hong Kong films from the Eighties and Nineties. I think the difference could be stricter guidelines in China so you don't see the same kind of creativity and risk-taking. Also with such big Chinese productions they're not going to take a chance on some young up-and- coming martial-arts actor when you can get a box-office draw with Donnie Yen.

Generally, as a martial-arts fan, I've become quite apathetic with Hong Kong/Chinese productions with few modern films satisfying me. Denis Law seems to be the best hope for exciting martial-arts Cinema at the moment. He's far, far, far away from the most talented film-maker but at least he's using martial-arts talent, , new and old, while trying to throwback to Eighties or Nineties excitement.

[DiP]

I have no problem with these co-productions, I take full enjoyment watching grander-scale productions with an all-round different and refreshing style. But the problem is still the censorship and the state which forces HK filmmakers and talents to adapt to the system rather than changing or challenging it. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the movies we end up seeing turns into something originally not supposed to be. But seeing as how the Hong Kong market has been in the last 15 years, it's the only alternative for these talents. The market offers, as you said, larger budgets, greater sets, less time restraints, and add to that more chances (not just big stars like Donnie Yen but everyone, period) of nurturing old and new talents as support from the mainland market is more positive. It will be easier for old and new talents to work themselves up over there than in HK.

There's still few talents in Hong Kong doing their best to keep the market alive but they are in lesser numbers and lack manpower and appeal for continuous support from their audience so they aren't enough. Plus the market is relatively small compared to China's which is self-explanatory. Even if these filmmakers and actors stay in HK making movies they will still be needing finance and eventually turn to the mainland market from time to time and use what they can earn so that they can continue making their own productions.

[fiol]

since HK martial arts movies are dead, i'm really happy for all these co-production

[mark187]

ultimately I think the HK film industry will tend to fluctuate back and forth. There is no denying that the quantity of output these days is much much less than in the old days, but the production values have certainly gone up. I think both some positive and negative things can be taken from China. I don't consider either the HK film industry or their output of martial arts films to be dead, in fact if you compare this year with last year it's on the rise. but as the first post points out, if we look ahead to the future then it will be key to have more new talent in all areas of filmmaking, and that is where the HK industry is severely lacking, especially in the action/martial arts department. Donnie Yen can only keep going at this rate for so long, and if we look at all the veteran actors/filmmakers, they're pretty much all in their mid forties and older. however, it also takes experience. people like Nicholas Tse and Daniel Wu have come a long way since they started out, and even people like Andy Lau didn't become an excellent actor overnight. it takes practice, and the more films one with the potential makes, the better they'll get. I think some key things that need to be kept in tact are the creativity, the styles of action, localized films, and most definitely Cantonese-language productions. I just read a review of Dante Lam's new film 'The Stool Pigeon' which Kozo at LoveHKfilm points out that it was approved by China, yet the writers have found a nice ground working within that system. I've heard the film be referred to as a "true-blue Hong Kong crime film" and one of the better local pictures this year, so there is still some hope for quality compromises. Lastly, it helps that localized films such as 'Love in a Puff' and 'Gallants' have gotten such good word-of-mouth this year (they are this years 2 best local films thus far in my opinion), hopefully that will inspire the industry to make more. Lastly, many people keep proclaiming the industry as 'been dead for years,' these people must not be watching any of the recent films? I can tell you that although it is in a worse state than the golden years, its heart is definitely still beating and I refuse to give up on it!~

[Space]

I think the more money HK takes from mainland China, the less challenging or controversial they can be. It's getting to the point where they'll trade away all their scruples for cash and high production values. What's the message anymore? Is there one?

HK kung fu cinema is turning into a colony of mainland China's for the money, with no vision and pro-Communist propaganda snuck into films. Don't rock the boat, right? Keep making safe movies demonizing the Japanese or white devils and nothing with any real substance.

[fiol]

I think the more money HK takes from mainland China, the less challenging or controversial they can be. It's getting to the point where they'll trade away all their scruples for cash and high production values. What's the message anymore? Is there one?

HK kung fu cinema is turning into a colony of mainland China's for the money, with no vision and pro-Communist propaganda snuck into films. Don't rock the boat, right? Keep making safe movies demonizing the Japanese or white devils and nothing with any real substance.

bruce lee did the same thing with one his movie and also some hk oldies did the same..so?

and moreover, beside ip man "series/clones", what else? Ip man was set during that period of time where japanese were not that "kind" toward chinese..

I cant find other mainland martial arts movie where u can see the "hate" towards japanese and whites (white ppl have always been seen like devils in hk movies too -.-).

About the communist propaganda...uhmm i cant see where to be honest

[DiP]

I think the more money HK takes from mainland China, the less challenging or controversial they can be. It's getting to the point where they'll trade away all their scruples for cash and high production values. What's the message anymore? Is there one?

Not something that can be done, unless the system changes which I doubt will happen anytime sooner. It's the only solution. Besides, if there's lesser money and support, there's no way (for the most part) for creativity to be realized. It's not a situation where the HK production companies willingly only see money as the main priority, regardless of box-office draws or investment on making movies for whatever purpose. It's something they are forced into (production companies need money as much as any other business-related company/organization for continuous successful operation) because faith in attracting huge crowds and hence spending money making movies for them has pretty much diminished there.

Making movies is still business, and business requires finance, and finance come from supporters, and the supporters are the audience/investors. This is where the Mainland market has the upper hand in: money, support, greater space, opportunities etc. HK has seen that day already and, despite efforts, it's not helping for the companies to make movies for a mostly hopeless audience.

[Space]

bruce lee did the same thing with one his movie and also some hk oldies did the same..so?

and moreover, beside ip man "series/clones", what else? Ip man was set during that period of time where japanese were not that "kind" toward chinese..

I cant find other mainland martial arts movie where u can see the "hate" towards japanese and whites (white ppl have always been seen like devils in hk movies too -.-).

About the communist propaganda...uhmm i cant see where to be honest

Legend of Chen Zhen looks like another "evil Japanese" movie. It's done to death, but a convenient villain, like Nazis. It's also a safe approach to movie villains. How about a rogue communist leader? "Uh oh, the money source suddenly plugs up and I'm in jail..." Not really the important bit in all this anyway.

The action movie scene in HK has less balls than it used to, taking mainland money in some ways doesn't help.

Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Donnie Yen, John Woo, Tony Leung and Andy Lau were involved with "The Founding of a Republic," last year's big budget mainland Communist propaganda movie. These kinds of pictures don't come out on a monthly basis, but it's a start. Once you take their money, you're beholden to them and find yourself in their Mao-love flicks. Don't even get me started on "Hero." Great movie, questionable message, questionable producers, and the face of the future.

DiP makes good points though. HK could conceivably not be a viable place for the film industry anymore without mainland money, but they have to exercise caution before it's too late and they owe them everything.

[fiol]

Legend of Chen Zhen looks like another "evil Japanese" movie. It's done to death, but a convenient villain, like Nazis. It's also a safe approach to movie villains. How about a rogue communist leader? "Uh oh, the money source suddenly plugs up and I'm in jail..." Not really the important bit in all this anyway.

The action movie scene in HK has less balls than it used to, taking mainland money in some ways doesn't help.

Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Donnie Yen, John Woo, Tony Leung and Andy Lau were involved with "The Founding of a Republic," last year's big budget mainland Communist propaganda movie. These kinds of pictures don't come out on a monthly basis, but it's a start. Once you take their money, you're beholden to them and find yourself in their Mao-love flicks. Don't even get me started on "Hero." Great movie, questionable message, questionable producers, and the face of the future.

DiP makes good points though. HK could conceivably not be a viable place for the film industry anymore without mainland money, but they have to exercise caution before it's too late and they owe them everything.

I still have to watch "Legend of Chen Zhen" but i dont care about how the japanese are in that movie. It's nothing new that japanese and white are treat like crap in martial arts movie (and also before the mainland boom)...so where's the big deal? Japanese did so many evil things in china that i dont see the problem if they are treat like this in mainland martial arts movie. Also because those movies are set in that period of time where japanese WERE nazis.

HK action movies began to fail before the handover to china... i cant see why it's chinese fault that now action movies are quite crappy.

About the involvement of some movie stars in pro-communist movies is nothing, i mean they are actors and they work for money. I cant see where the problem is.

[Space]

About the involvement of some movie stars in pro-communist movies is nothing, i mean they are actors and they work for money. I cant see where the problem is.

You can't see the problem with selling out to make pro-Communist movies for what is essentially a cameo (and cameo money?) Those guys were barely in the movie. They didn't get paid top dollar, they did it because they owed them a favor.

Most producers are sleazy and get their money from sleazy places, but owing the Chinese government is not a good idea. Look at where the U.S. is right now, it's heavily indebted to a bunch of Communists in the Chinese government who gladly gave them money and now own their asses. Is it the end of the world? No, but it's the wave of the future, a grim one where your new overlords censor you at will and refuse to be challenged or questioned.

Some how, HK has to take all the money it's making from these mainland people, reinvest it back into HK, try to keep it there and ween themselves off the Beijing and Shanghai investors.

[HyperDrive]

Another thing is it's the only way to compete with Hollywood.

Even if they had a problem with the mainland ways, there's no place for them to bolt to. Taiwan's film industry is literally extinct except for the occasional art movie. Japan and Korea have been on the downswing sort of as well. Maybe Thailand?

[Space]

Another thing is it's the only way to compete with Hollywood.

Even if they had a problem with the mainland ways, there's no place for them to bolt to. Taiwan's film industry is literally extinct except for the occasional art movie. Japan and Korea have been on the downswing sort of as well. Maybe Thailand?

I think it would be great to see some Thailand/HK co-productions. HK could film some movies there, ala Skyhawk and Shaolin Handlock. Thailand could do the same in HK, crossover with stars like Tony Jaa and put him in a Donnie Yen movie.

We can only hope.

[fiol]

You can't see the problem with selling out to make pro-Communist movies for what is essentially a cameo (and cameo money?) Those guys were barely in the movie. They didn't get paid top dollar, they did it because they owed them a favor.

Most producers are sleazy and get their money from sleazy places, but owing the Chinese government is not a good idea. Look at where the U.S. is right now, it's heavily indebted to a bunch of Communists in the Chinese government who gladly gave them money and now own their asses. Is it the end of the world? No, but it's the wave of the future, a grim one where your new overlords censor you at will and refuse to be challenged or questioned.

Some how, HK has to take all the money it's making from these mainland people, reinvest it back into HK, try to keep it there and ween themselves off the Beijing and Shanghai investors.

U like it or not HK IS CHINA. I understand from ur posts that u dont like communism/communists, and i wont argue about that since it's ur opinion, but i dont find anything wrong with what's happening to HK cinema's industry. If they dont like to co-product with China, they can always decide to do so, nobody are forcing them -.-

[thelastweaponmaster]

With China's prosperity over the last 10 years and the spending power of its population growing, its appetite for entertainment and going to the movies is increasing exponentially. I saw this first hand when I was in Beijing and Shanghai this past summer with its jam packed roads and malls. Also, as noted in the news recently, more theaters are being built in the major cities in China.

I don't think the films are being financed/made with a requirement to promote a pro-Communist agenda but more with the desire to promote China as a prosperous country with a proud history, as evidenced by the Summer Olympics in Beijing and the Expo in Shanghai. With its vast country sides and natural beauty, this lends to more films being made exploring China's past and history, as opposed to its crowded cities. And if you are looking at China's recent past and for villains, that would naturally be the "foreign devils" or the Japanese during WWII. Just as HK film industry had its fair share of movies dealing with the foreign devils/Japanese in its infancy stage of development, so will China's.

However China/HK filmmakers and its population will soon become bored with the same themes and look for different subject matters to tackle. In the meantime, enjoy the ride and the current crop of martial arts films. I think the biggest issue will be determining where the next wave of Chinese directors and martial arts stars will come from.

[Jesse Smooth]

I'd love for the Taiwanese film industry to make a comeback, or new talents from what's left of the Peking Opera schools.

[Space]

I'd love for the Taiwanese film industry to make a comeback, or new talents from what's left of the Peking Opera schools.

There's plenty of Opera talent out there, thankfully. Wushu too. It's just up to the directors to work with the best stuntmen as well. Not just using them for stunts, but scouting and casting them, maybe helping with acting classes. Otherwise the scene stays soft and gets older.

How many Taiwanese movies have come out lately?

[Jesse Smooth]

There's plenty of Opera talent out there, thankfully. Wushu too. It's just up to the directors to work with the best stuntmen as well. Not just using them for stunts, but scouting and casting them, maybe helping with acting classes. Otherwise the scene stays soft and gets older.

How many Taiwanese movies have come out lately?

The Taiwanese film industry is pretty much extinct, except for TV I believe.

[kungfusamurai]

I don't see anything wrong with it. They've been making great kung fu films in mainland China, with and without HK help. Lau Kar Leung even went there in '86 to make Martial Arts of Shaolin.

If HK productions are moving to china it's only because it's getting too expensive in Hong Kong. I don't think the movies will change to conform to China's rules. There are many Hollywood movies made in Canada, but they don't become all Canadian because of that.

KFS

[Jesse Smooth]

I don't see anything wrong with it. They've been making great kung fu films in mainland China, with and without HK help. Lau Kar Leung even went there in '86 to make Martial Arts of Shaolin.

If HK productions are moving to china it's only because it's getting too expensive in Hong Kong. I don't think the movies will change to conform to China's rules. There are many Hollywood movies made in Canada, but they don't become all Canadian because of that.

KFS

Seems like the Mainland movies of the 80s were less depressed-looking. Today, they feel just drab.

[Space]

Seems like the Mainland movies of the 80s were less depressed-looking. Today, they feel just drab.

Grey lens filters are a must when filming serious drama about the Japanese invading China or tributes to Mao.

[Jesse Smooth]

Grey lens filters are a must when filming serious drama about the Japanese invading China or tributes to Mao.

Yeah, that would make sense.

[Stuntman Jules]

I have no love for China's government. Biggest bunch of stick up their ass hypocrites going. I am a bit of a Marxist/socialist politically but I hate them. Marxist at its core is about freedom, if anything, the communist People's Republic of China of today is more of a fascist regime. They brutally impose their will on others. They whine about the Japanese during WWII while they hypocritically torture Falun Gong members with sex toys and give women who don't register their pregnancies forced abortions. The Japanese today, if they are a bit pompous, proud and have great reluctance admitting their war-like past and revere their war criminals in a Shinto shrine, at least aren't still running comfort houses and doing live vivisections. Mao also killed more of his own people than the Nihonjin could have dreamed.

I think partially the Chinese are just jealous of the Japanese because they went from a war-scarred, backwards defeated country to an economic superpower over night (though this was mostly because the US wanted one big anti-communist base in Asia and so did what they could to ensure this) whereas with China it has been much messier.

The Mainland handover has all but ruined HK cinema. Zhang Yimou's stuff is very beautifully made, though yes, the message of Hero is very pro-communist and "end justifies the means", but I love his films regardless. Hong Kong cinema is so drab compared to what it used to be, though. At least the Mainland stuff has some spectacle and good production values even if half it is government-sanctioned communist propaganda.

As for the gray lens filters, that is stolen from Hollywood. Hollywood does that cliche color drain fliter on its heavy stuff starting with Saving Private Ryan, Black Hawk Down, etc. The Chinese are just mimicking that. The Mainland films, in my eyes, mimic the high concept Hollywood stuff as much as the Chinese themselves are copying America's capitalism (so much for being Marxists).

[Space]

I really think it's up to us in other places to start working on more martial arts films to give HK some competition. Without it, they can remain complacent. Between Hollywood and independent filmmakers, there is enough money, time and talent even in America to make compelling martial arts films that rival HK's current output. More and more Chinese talent, fighting-wise, is moving here to live and work, they just have to be in the right hands. Hollywood hasn't managed to get any good martial arts films made but it's simply not the right people trying, because talented martial artists, writers and directors are here in America now.

It's a delicate balance, and we can't shy away from addressing real issues about China and America in these movies, while not losing sight of having fun.

I would say Thailand could give them competition, but we have to wait until Tony Jaa returns from monk hood.

[One Armed Boxer]

This is an interesting thread...

The move from of the HK industry to China is both a blessing and a curse. People can't really say China is draining HK of it's creativity. The time period when the presence of Chinese Mainland movies became much more visible, in the early 2000's with the likes of 'Hero' etc., the HK movie industry, at least from the viewpoint of this website which is kung-fu movie based, had been on a downslide since the mid-90's.

Like other members have stated, I think much more than any problem the government is causing such as censorship, communist propoganda etc., it is the human element that you can basically boil the lack of "balls to the wall" cinema that everyone was so fond of back in the 80's and early 90's down to.

When Hong Kong was handed back over to China in 1997 it was almost like the stars had aligned to put a doomy fate on HK action cinema, most of it's main draws were already past their prime, with no real younger blood coming through to take their place, a problem that still remains to this day, which is the polar opposite of the immediate 20 years preceding the take over, which could probably be best described as a storm in a teacup.

If you look at 1977 - 1997 the Opera school performers were all at the peak of their abilities...you had the Venoms, the Seven Little Fortunes, Lau Kar Leung, the Yuen clan, both Jackie Chan & Sammo Hung built up awesome stunt teams with the likes of Dick Wei, Mars, & Chin Kar Lok, & of course people like Gordon Liu, Jet Li, Donnie Yen, & Colin Chow to name but a few...who replaced these guys? Nobody did, and this in my opinion is the main problem.

Long before movies from the Mainland started dominating the Hong Kong scene most of the major players where already too old to crank out the insane action we became accustomed to seeing in the 80's and early 90's, or they had jumped ship to Hollywood the moment the handover was completed. Watch any interview with the likes of Jackie Chan, Jet Li, or Chow Yun Fat from before the handover, and they always say their dream was to work in Hollywood.

However their dreams of working in Hollywood were of course naive and innocent, as Hollywood had no idea what to do with them except put them in roles they're already known for. So Jackie Chan was always playing the clown to Chris Tucker or Owen Wilson, Jet Li plays the silent but strong cop type, and Chow Yun Fat plays a cool double pistol wielding hitman or cop. Directors got it even worse, as regardless of their HK output, Hollywood saw HK directors as action movie makers and that's it, and the best they saw fit to give top grade directors of the time like Tsui Hark, Ringo Lam, & John Woo was....Jean Claude Van Damme! Tsui Hark and Ringo Lam actually got stuck with him over and over again.

So a few years later, with the exception of Chan (& John Woo also hung on longer than most), all of Hong Kong's finest returned to their homeland having become disillusioned with the land that had always been their dream to work in, and if they were only just past their primes before, now they were totally past it. Since 2000, with the exception of Jet Li who actually seems to have control over his career, the likes of Chan, CYF, Tsui Hark, & Ringo Lam have either churned out complete trash or simply nothing at all.

So it is perhaps a blessing that China is financing these bigger budget productions, the times were every movie seemed to be a big warring states period epic seem to finally be over, and we are actually enjoying some back to basics kung-fu movies, such as 'Ip Man', 'Ip Man: The Legend is Born', 'Invisible Target', 'Sha Po Lang', & 'Flash Pont'. But the problem is still very clear, 3 out of the 5 films mentioned star Donnie Yen, & 1 of them splits people down the middle in an either love it or hate it kind of way, new blood still needs to be found.

But for now, for me the positives outweigh the negatives, yes we have to endure somewhat ridiculous nationalism from some movies, and if we ever watch a cop drama chances are it will say at the start it's set before 1997 so the film-makers can get away with just that little bit more, but at least we get our action fix, which if you look at the period from 1997 - 2003 was completely devoid of any excitement, and that for me is enough.