Bruce vs Benny in wheels on Meals..Overrated.

[sifu iron perm]

Ive read magaiznes back in the 90's praising this fight and mentioning it as one of the best battles..This was in the early 90's..

I first wtached the film in the mid 80's and as a kid i was dissapointed , wished it was longer and had more brutal action like in the old school kung.

Why is this so rated in the first place?

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Personally I don't think it's overrated, perhaps a bit overhyped.... which may be the same thing. Im not sure. But you gotta recognise the energy, the various styles of technique, the pacing, the editing, the whole set up. WOM was a pretty light movie throughout, so I guess they decided to keep the action somewhat light in tone, as well. I think it fits the movie, and the brutality of old school kung, as you call it, was maybe not warranted, and in fact something that both Sammo and Jackie was moving away from. Though Sammo always liked the hardhitting bouts more than Jackie, who just kept watering down the intensity in lieu of physical comedy.

I think it's a great fight, actually more so than the rematch in Dragons Forever. But that's a matter of taste, of course.

[sifu iron perm]

peace,

I respect that,i just wish it was longer and gave us more of Benny displaying his skills. When you have a project with some crazy skilled ass fighters/action stars, thats the time to shine.

[Karlos]

If memory serves, wasn't there was a bit of bad blood between Jackie and Benny during filming of WoM, and that leaked into the fight, where a fair few blows thrown were for real?

Afterwards, both parties were quick to say they could kick the other's ass!

Wasn't the body armor removing by Jackie during their Dragons Forever rematch a dig at Benny, as well? Damn, my memory sucks!!

IMHO, both fights are great, in great films, by great on (and off) -screen martial artists.

[kaleyboy]

As far as I remember, Benny having not had much screen fighting experiance, but a helluva lot of real fighting experiance, kept hitting Jackie for real. It came to a head and Jackie said: "Hit me one more time, and you'll never work in HK again!". He felt pretty lame after saying this in front of his stunt crew, and so to keep face, he challenged Benny to a charity fight in HK once shooting was done. Afterwards, Sammo discreetly showed Jackie a tape of one of Benny's fights - Jackie quickly dropped the whole idea of fighting Benny for real.

[DiP]

As far as I remember, Benny having not had much screen fighting experiance, but a helluva lot of real fighting experiance, kept hitting Jackie for real. It came to a head and Jackie said: "Hit me one more time, and you'll never work in HK again!". He felt pretty lame after saying this in front of his stunt crew, and so to keep face, he challenged Benny to a charity fight in HK once shooting was done. Afterwards, Sammo discreetly showed Jackie a tape of one of Benny's fights - Jackie quickly dropped the whole idea of fighting Benny for real.

Not true. According to Benny himself in one interview on the HKL DVD edition, he clarifies the rumor. Basically, what occurred was that Jackie, being impressed by Benny's skills, convinced Benny into fighting him, which Benny first hesitated due to his capabilities as well as Jackie being an actor but in the end didn't mind. This made everyone on the set excited and betting on who would win. Jackie kept reminding him days after days during shooting as it that went without actual fighting taking place. And then by the time production wrapped, there was still no fighting between them that was promised so Benny went to Jackie and asked him whether they would fight each other. To his surprise, Benny found out that Jackie was just joking all along to see if he (Benny) would catch it or get caught off guard.

What is true though is that when they did retakes toward the end of the fight (where they fight at the window with Jackie landing punches on Benny in slomo), Jackie had to hit hard and at times actually landed punches on the side of Benny's head few times which would get him aroused and a bit annoyed.

[kaleyboy]

Well my info comes from Bey Logan's commentary. See this clip:

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I'm sure I remember JC confirming it in an interview, too. I'll see if I can find it.

[DiP]

Just watched the clip. Both of us were right. But I've yet to get any confirmation of the rest you said.

[sifu iron perm]

wish i held on to my zines with info about this kind of stuff.

But im pretty sure you guys will bring so much up..

[KUNG FU BOB]

I gotta say- I loved this fight in WOM and still watch it with a big smile on my face. I think it's exciting, inventive, funny, and has great pacing.

[sifu iron perm]

I take it those were the only two Golden harvest & Asian films (WONM & DF) Benny worked on?

Did Benny work on the Shannon Lee film?

[andy338]

I loved this fight as a kid & even now 20 years after I first watched it despite having seen it dozens of times it still looks great. What I never understood though was the praise given to the fight going on at the same time between Yuen Biao & Keith Vitali which basically just had Biao jumping about avoiding Keith. I think its shown in the documentary Best of Martial Arts & John Saxon talks about it as been a classic fight but it really wasn't anything special to me.

[KUNG FU BOB]

I take it those were the only two Golden harvest & Asian films (WONM & DF) Benny worked on?

Did Benny work on the Shannon Lee film?

Yes, Benny fights Shannon Lee in ENTER THE EAGLES. It's not a great film, but still very enjoyable. I don't think Shannon ever did anything where she looked better in action. She certainly one-upped her brother when it comes to showing the fisticuffs in a Hong Kong movie!

What I never understood though was the praise given to the fight going on at the same time between Yuen Biao & Keith Vitali which basically just had Biao jumping about avoiding Keith. I think its shown in the documentary Best of Martial Arts & John Saxon talks about it as been a classic fight but it really wasn't anything special to me.

I hear ya. After showing Biao's wicked kickboxing skills when he trains with Jackie earlier in the film I was surprised by the direction this scene took. I still liked it, and thought it was funny. But it would have been cool if he had played the avoid game for a bit, tired out his bigger opponent, then once he was cornered, finally unleashed his full fighting skills on Vitali.

[David Rees]

Great fight. Funny enough the music and sound mix on the original English dub is soo much better than the Chinese sound mix, the tempo is much more upbeat. As much as i love Jackie he was wise not to mess with Benny, one of the greatest ring fighters of his generation.

[sifu iron perm]

Great fight. Funny enough the music and sound mix on the original English dub is soo much better than the Chinese sound mix, the tempo is much more upbeat. As much as i love Jackie he was wise not to mess with Benny, one of the greatest ring fighters of his generation.

Did Benny offer Frank Dux (bloodsport) a fight and Frank backed out? Any truth to that?

I remember when promoters tried to get sugar ray leonard and benny into the ring, queensbury rules though..that would have been sick but Ray would be too much for him in a strictly boxing contest.

[make believe]

Yes, Benny fights Shannon Lee in ENTER THE EAGLES. It's not a great film, but still very enjoyable. I don't think Shannon ever did anything where she looked better in action. She certainly one-upped her brother when it comes to showing the fisticuffs in a Hong Kong movie!

Enter the Eagles was entertaining but in a very awful straight to video sort of way. Everything about it was just so cheesy. In fact you bringing it up has made me want to watch it again just to remember how cheesy it was! I thought Shannon was pretty good when she guest starred in Martial Law.

[Sam Seed]

Great fight. Funny enough the music and sound mix on the original English dub is soo much better than the Chinese sound mix, the tempo is much more upbeat.

I agree with this wholeheartedly! God, I wish I could find that version on DVD.

[Yakuza954]

I thought the fight was overrated when I first saw it too, but that's to be expected when so many people call it the greatest fight ever, the fight to end all fights, etc. Basically, other than reading about Bruce Lee, Enter the Dragon, and more Bruce Lee, there isn't anything else in the kung fu movie world that has the same amount of that annoying "well as might as well stop filming martial arts movies, because that was the peak" vibe to it.

So, while I don't think this fight is the best ever, it has grown on me over the years and it isn't crap like ETD. Far from it. Here's why the fight is so great:

1) it strikes about as good a balance between flashy fake movie fighting and more realistic fighting as you can get on the screen. Usually when realistic fighting is used in movies it fails because it focuses too much on the basics and it fails to capture the attention of the audience like the flashier techniques do. Well here, Jackie and Jet keep all the acrobatics and flashy techniques that come with movie fighting, but they also incorporate real boxing/kickboxing maneuvers and tecnhiques. In one of my favorite moments, Jackie paws with a lazy jab at Benny a couple times only to get countered with a straight left hand right in the face. Jackie never repeats that lazy jab combination in the fight again and that leads me to the next thing that makes this fight so great, and that's..

2) the improvisation. Many times in a climatic kung fu fight, the hero wins the final fight in a very anticlimactic way. It isn't rare that the lead hero is getting his ass kicked for the duration, only to suddenly pull off the 'magical' technique from his ass he'd been training for 2 minutes, cueing the old stock footage of the two eggs breaking. In more annoying examples, he and one or more friends have to practically gang up and bully their way to victory. Yawn. For those who like masochism, there's always the bad guy who accidentally trips and falls on some tree stump, or who is mortally wounded or handicapped in some other convenient fashion. Just end my misery now. Luckilly, that's not the case here. Jackie has to improvise and change his fighting style in order to better cope with Benny. It's not until Jackie adapts, relaxes, and focuses more on his footwork that he starts doing real damage on Benny the Jet. Quite frankly, that's how real men fight, and its the kid of ebb-and-flow I like to see at the tippity-top level of movie screenfighting.

3) All the other small detailed intricacies included in the fight. Like Benny the Jet missing with his roundhouse kick but turning the fire off the candles. How about Jackie randomly stretching and sharing intense staredowns with Benny the Jet? Or Jackie hurting Benny the Jet with a left hook and following with another wild left hook that completely misses during the slow-motion replay, but which is the exact kind of follow up, wild punch that fighters often throw (and miss) after hurting their opponents. This isn't the kind of stuff that they had to include in the movie, and which sometimes isn't immediately noticeable after the first viewing, but which improves the rewatchability of the fight immensely.

All of this is why when casual fans tell me about how good Jackie looked in Armour of God, or Rumble in the Bronx, I always point to Jackie's fight in Wheels on Meals as his best 1-on-1 fight during his physical prime.

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

I couldn't agree more.... good points!

[KUNG FU BOB]

I second that! Yakuza954, you nailed it with those details. This is a great breakdown of some of the fight's many merits.