Member Chia Ling AKA Judy Lee Posted May 11, 2010 Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 I think it's less a case of disagreement, more about negativity. Let's face it, the kung fu genre has many flaws and imperfections - even the classics are seen as low grade material by film snobs - so to get snobbish about them when claiming to be a fan of the genre seems a bit perverse. Let's face it, trying to tear Born Invincible to pieces is a wasted exercise, nobody is claiming it is perfect but many find it highly enjoyable. If you don't that is fine but attempting to objectively pick holes in it really is akin to throwing stones when residing in a glass house... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member inframan Posted May 11, 2010 Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 Did Carter Wong have any styles he trained in? He looks kinda swingy armed to me, espcially in Shaolin Traitorious. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member rdenn Posted May 11, 2010 Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 my point exactly if your a fan of the kung fu genre whats the point moaning about plot, weird hair styles, high pitched dub voices and over the top fights scenes, those are the things that make the genre so special. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Ninja Sinai Posted May 11, 2010 Author Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 Originally Posted by rdenn my point exactly if your a fan of the kung fu genre whats the point moaning about plot, weird hair styles, high pitched dub voices and over the top fights scenes, those are the things that make the genre so special. High pitched she male voices may do it for you my friend but they certainly dont for me. I LOVE my old skool kung fu classics, movies like those which I posted here, http://kungfucinema.com/forums/showthread.php?t=506 Those are REAL classics! Not horrible pieces of crap like Born Invincible. But to be fair.. everyone has their own tastes and favorites. So if someone enjoys and likes Born Invincible.. hay you have a right too.. I just cant understand why thats all.. I think many fans may buy into hype and just because many fans like a certain movie, they feel that they must also like it too.. thats not the case. If you watch a movie and if you like it, you like it and dont care what people say and vice-versa. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member GOLDEN DRAGON YIN-YANG Posted May 11, 2010 Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 Google, Carter Wong. He has his own website. He began studding Chinese kung fu at 8 years. Then he traveled to Japan and Thailand and other places and amassed his knowledge of kung fu then he created his own style called; Chung Hop Kuen. A martial arts master for sure. At one time he trained the Hong Kong Police in martial arts. He also taught martial arts to the New York State Police Force. Master instructor for the U.S. Marine Corps. His list of martial arts achievements is worth a look. This man never stops. Amazing. Anyone who says he don't know kung full is full of it. Wow this dude is something else. I like him more as a villain than a hero. I also think B.I. is not one of his great films. GD Y-Y 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 my point exactly if your a fan of the kung fu genre whats the point moaning about plot, weird hair styles, high pitched dub voices and over the top fights scenes, those are the things that make the genre so special. Have to disagree. To me those things are important - unless you think Kung Fu automatically means great fights bad everything else. I don't. And the snobbery on this forum is inverted. If you complain about a martial arts movie then you're deemed not to be a true fan - whatever the hell that means? So, once again: Born Invincible - bad movie; Seven Grandmasters - good movie. I really don't care if that upsets people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member The Lizard Posted May 11, 2010 Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 my point exactly if your a fan of the kung fu genre whats the point moaning about plot, weird hair styles, high pitched dub voices and over the top fights scenes, those are the things that make the genre so special. For each his own.Cool if your taste is so wide you can drink both beer and urine. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member GOLDEN DRAGON YIN-YANG Posted May 11, 2010 Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 Have to disagree. To me those things are important - unless you think Kung Fu automatically means great fights bad everything else. I don't. And the snobbery on this forum is inverted. If you complain about a martial arts movie then you're deemed not to be a true fan - whatever the hell that means? So, once again: Born Invincible - bad movie; Seven Grandmasters - good movie. I really don't care if that upsets people. Markgway. Right on. I agree 100%. A movie needs all the right ingredients to be great and thus a TRUE classic to some. Born Invincible is poor in all departments. Its not just the fights ITS so much more that makes these movies transcendent when they ring my bell.. GD Y-Y 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member BlackLamaFaction Posted May 11, 2010 Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 my point exactly if your a fan of the kung fu genre whats the point moaning about plot, weird hair styles, high pitched dub voices and over the top fights scenes, those are the things that make the genre so special. That is so typical and exactly the reason most crap does well at the box office. The whole point of being a fan of cinema is discerning between good films and trash. Because let's face it there are certainly plenty examples of both. I mean lousy plot, poor character development, crap choreography, just accept that, after all it's only a kung fu movie what do you expect. That's what it sounds like your implying and that's nonsense. Martial Arts cinema just like all cinema has it's masterpieces it's trainwrecks and everything in between. The purpose of this forum is for fans of cinema yes FANS of cinema to engage in conversation and debate about those films. Not just accept any piece of trash because it's a Kung Fu movie and John Liu pulled off a cool kick somewhere in there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member rdenn Posted May 11, 2010 Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 7 grandmasters is a lot better than born invicible but that movie does not have a good plot, just great fight scenes, and thats why it is a great movie,so i cant understand why born invicible is supposed to be awful, but hey i dont want to say to much i will be put on the falkor hitlist for loving this genre to much 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member shapes Posted May 11, 2010 Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 Born Invincible - great movie 7 grnadmasters - brilliant movie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member The Amazing Psycho Per Posted May 11, 2010 Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 What polarizes opinions on certain movies is the hype surrounding it. Born Invincible is very high on many fans lists, so of course, lot of people come in with high expectations. To me, it didn't meet them. Choreo. is sub par for the most part, and I don't find Carter Wong and Lo Lieh to be great fighters to look at, at least not in this. Plus, it is very repetitive. Born Invincible is far from awful, just not the top classic some elevate it to, at least not for me. But I agree in these cases, it is pretty pointless to go into many lenghts taring it into pieces as a "movie". 7 grandmasters isn't by any means a greater movie, it just has much, much better fights. The thing is, that this genre, in the past never had the goal to put a solid cinematic effort, just assemble good fights with an easy plot that must not get to much in the way of the action. Sometime, they manage to do it, sometimes not. But to me, the fights make or brake the movie, if they brake it, only then other elements starts irritating me. If they make it, I overook the movie many flaws. Let's face it, nobody is going to convince me that this genre offers a good cinema experience. These movies were directed on the automatic pilot, and often written as they went along. I don't understand why some fans get so upset when someone doesn't like a movie they think is a classic... Some take it very personnaly. More often then not, these people can't even offer a counter argument. They get mad and dismiss what you say. Is it so far fetched to assume that some people have different taste? I don't mean to say we souldn't argue, because we should, but one side sometimes act like it holds the holy truth, without any substancial argument to back it up... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member rdenn Posted May 11, 2010 Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 at the end of the day i am not going to agree with someone who just likes their movies with plot and good cinematography with high production values compared to whitehaired villians who laugh out of nowhere and then stop suddenly who then use animal styles when they fight i love everything about them movies, but when you have to read the constant putdown snobberish attitude towards this genre on a kung fu movie forum then i can only ignore it so long, i love this genre to much, we are just on different pages, i was trying my best to ignore this thread but my passion for kung fu movies got the better of me 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member peringaten Posted May 11, 2010 Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 I never liked Carter, like I was allergic to him... then I started learning hung gar, and watched his movies again, especially the Bronzemen flicks (for the record never bothered with BI yet - too many wide/subbed films to watch first)... dude's like a dictionary of Southern kung fu techniques. Sometimes Southern kung isn't so pretty; Carter knew his shit, it took me understanding some to get it - you're not gonna get pretty opera stuff from this dude. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 at the end of the day i am not going to agree with someone who just likes their movies with plot and good cinematography with high production values compared to whitehaired villians who laugh out of nowhere and then stop suddenly who then use animal styles when they fight i love everything about them movies, but when you have to read the constant putdown snobberish attitude towards this genre on a kung fu movie forum then i can only ignore it so long, i love this genre to much, we are just on different pages, i was trying my best to ignore this thread but my passion for kung fu movies got the better of me Sorry, but that's all rubbish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member rdenn Posted May 11, 2010 Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 the kind of response i was expecting 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted May 11, 2010 Share Posted May 11, 2010 the kind of response i was expecting I gave the response your comment was worth. I tried a more reasonable one earlier but it was ignored so I figured I should get straight to the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member rdenn Posted May 11, 2010 Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 me and you have been in this situation before mark i think it was over of cooks and kung fu a while back why am i wasting my energy here.. i .disappoint myself. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member silver hermit Posted May 11, 2010 Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 born invincible isn't awful but its not a classic. its flawed but not hopeless. but what can you expect from a forum that disses bruce lee and bigs up elton chong ya'll got your priorities twisted. i was enjoying this forum untill some got upset with falkor now are just being rediculous, negative and saying things just to spark conversations/arguements. so lets recap, born invincible is average if you factor in those that are involed. so it disapoints many. the concept is bang on for a shapes classic but the execution left it a bit short. C+ or 6.7 out of 10 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Ninja Sinai Posted May 11, 2010 Author Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 To give some of you an example and to hopefully help some of you understand.. Kung Fu movies that are REAL classics and true masterpieces are movies like: Snake In The Eagles Shadow Drunken Master Snake In The Monkeys Shadow Warriors Two Prodigal Son Knockabout Ninja In The Dragons Den Legend Of A Fighter The Young Master The Secret Rivals II The Secret Rivals Choi Lee Fat Kung Fu Mystery Of Chess Boxing Crystal Fist The Victim 7 Grandmasters Dance Of The Drunken Mantis Snuff Bottle Connection Invincible Armour The Hot The Cool & The Vicious Hellz Windstaff Snake Deadly Act Magnificant Butcher Spooky Encounters The Odd Couple The Loot The Challenger Two On The Road Now lets compare Born Invincible with any of the classics above.. and you'll see why Born Invincible is just soooooo DAMN awful! Also remember people.. this a forum where fans of the genre can discuss their fav movies and talk about those that they hated and believe are over hyped. We shouldn't let differences of opinion on movies cause ANY animosity between us fans.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member silver hermit Posted May 11, 2010 Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 To give some of you an example and to hopefully help some of you understand.. Kung Fu movies that are REAL classics and true masterpieces are movies like: Snake In The Eagles Shadow Drunken Master Snake In The Monkeys Shadow Warriors Two Prodigal Son Knockabout Ninja In The Dragons Den Legend Of A Fighter The Young Master The Secret Rivals II The Secret Rivals Choi Lee Fat Kung Fu Mystery Of Chess Boxing Crystal Fist The Victim 7 Grandmasters Dance Of The Drunken Mantis Snuff Bottle Connection Invincible Armour The Hot The Cool & The Vicious Hellz Windstaff Snake Deadly Act Magnificant Butcher Spooky Encounters The Odd Couple The Loot The Challenger Two On The Road Now lets compare Born Invincible with any of the classics above.. and you'll see why Born Invincible is just soooooo DAMN awful! Also remember people.. this a forum where fans of the genre can discuss their fav movies and talk about those that they hated and believe are over hyped. We shouldn't let differences of opinion on movies cause ANY animosity between us fans.. i agree all those flms are better than born invincible but still BI isn't awful. thats too strong a word. i don't think its a classic but it has cult status thats for sure. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member The Amazing Psycho Per Posted May 11, 2010 Member Share Posted May 11, 2010 mmm... I'm sorry but I don't think Crystal Fist is any better then Born Invincible... Crystal Fist is a very poor man's Snake in the Eagle Shadows... I never liked Carter, like I was allergic to him... then I started learning hung gar, and watched his movies again, especially the Bronzemen flicks (for the record never bothered with BI yet - too many wide/subbed films to watch first)... dude's like a dictionary of Southern kung fu techniques. Sometimes Southern kung isn't so pretty; Carter knew his shit, it took me understanding some to get it - you're not gonna get pretty opera stuff from this dude. Maybe your right... But I can appreciate Lau Kar Leung and Lau Kar Wing's magnificient mastering of Hung Gar and kung fu in general, even though they don't do pretty opera stuff... Then again, I'm no Hung Gar specialist, so maybe I'm missing something Carter Wong. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member dionbrother Posted May 12, 2010 Member Share Posted May 12, 2010 Always felt Carter Wong had legit skills that never translated well on screen. Like he didn't know how to exaggerate his moves for the camera. On the other hand, Wang Lung Wei didn't think Carter's skills were worth a damn. Always dug BORN INVINCIBLE, but its not a classic of any sort. Just a fun B pic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Fang Shih-yu Posted May 12, 2010 Member Share Posted May 12, 2010 We shouldn't let differences of opinion on movies cause ANY animosity between us fans.. THIS, above all else, says it all! Be of an open mind about the movies we LOVE, or be falkor! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Markgway Posted May 12, 2010 Share Posted May 12, 2010 me and you have been in this situation before mark i think it was over of cooks and kung fu a while back why am i wasting my energy here.. i .disappoint myself. That rings a bell. I hated Of Cooks... It doesn't bother me that you like it. Why should it? We're all entitled to our opinions. What I don't appreciate is being told that I (and others) are not proper fans because we don't embrace all that we see as the worst aspects in Kung Fu Cinema. By all means defend Born Invincible as a movie if you like it - but don't dismiss those who care about more than camp and kicks as traitors. Remember: Falkor is NOT a role model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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