Shapes and Aesthetics

[silver hermit]

the 8 diagram sword style and pole style seem to be based on the esoterics of the i ching what do you think falkor? ever think about the sacred geometry of martial science in reference to on screen forms and shapes? the best example of this has to be born invincible or maybe the 13 poles array of shaolin

[falkor]

the 8 diagram sword style and pole style seem to be based on the esoterics of the i ching what do you think falkor? ever think about the sacred geometry of martial science in reference to on screen forms and shapes? the best example of this has to be born invincible or maybe the 13 poles array of shaolin

Formations is an excellent feature of certain martial arts films. Anything above 2-on-1 or 3-on-1 is too crowded especially when you have more than one duel taking place on screen, your eyes are having to switch and change focus all the time. However, when several performers fight in a formation then it's great! Art definitely has a lot to do with geometry, hence the word "shapes". I once took a clip from Incredible Kung Fu Master and gave it the title: shapes, patterns, arrays and formations--very appropriate. Other good films feature formations, such as Raiders of the Shaolin Temple.

Going back to what Athena was saying, I really do think there is a learning curve to Kung Fu movies. I remember when I first watched them, and when I re-watched them several months later, etc. I saw 8 Diagram around the age of 9 before I was ever interested in Kung Fu Movies. I was an intelligent kid, but Kickboxer was probably more interesting to me back then. I remember having trouble accepting the dubbing in 8 diagram, plus everything seemed so foreign to me. Of course everything had changed by the age of 15. 8 Diagram was seen as being 10 times better than any Van Damme film etc.

[falkor]

With Born Invincible, I don't think it's the fact that Carter Wong is moving to the shape of the Tai Chi symbol that makes it so amazing, but it has more to do with this:

1) Cater Wong is fighting with his upper body whilst simultaneously doing something very skillful with his feet.

2) The Symbol in the ground matches the candle-lit symbol of his traning scenes (and is even on his belt buckle).

3) Just the circular boundary part of the symbol, forming an arena.

[GOLDEN DRAGON YIN-YANG]

How about the Taoist arrays like the Pole Star formation we saw a lot of those in Shaw movies.

The yin-yang symbol and the internal boxing arts spawned from it are deep and profound. Plus the yin-yang symbol has 'hidden' geometries that one can trace or follow that yield amazing results.

The body is to move as one unit in the end.

I saw Master Chan, a Tai Chi master of the greatest excellence, of the Boston Common, Boston, Ma. in the early 80's show me his skills one day. Just me and him.

We were up on the hill in the Commons where the WW I Navy statue is. At that time they had galvanized trash cans sitting inside huge cement cylinders and locked with chains to prevent them being toppled over.

You can imagine how heavy one of these cement cylinders was. Master Chan stood in front of one of them and with a whole unit body swivel his right front foot smacked the cylinder as he exhaled a loud HA. The cement trash can holding cylinder was lifted 8 inches off the ground approaching the point he would have knocked it over and down the hill.

He then looked at me and said with eyes: "You saw that, you know I could have easily toppled it, Don't you"?

Indeed I did!

This is the power of the Supreme Ultimate Boxing styles.

Great is the Tai Chi Tu.

GD Y-Y

[Athena]

" the 8 diagram sword style and pole style seem to be based on the esoterics of the i ching what do you think falkor?"

I am a great admire of Wushu ( always feel odd calling myself a "practitioner" compered with the real top practitioners , but anyway) . There is done some interesting tests/research on old wushu and Tai Chi forms. Filmed from above & then transcend in computer animations they create beautiful art/patterns. These patterns have been used in Taoist meditation for ever. Newer monitored research find when these patterns are learned mentally & visualized in test objects, it can immediately affect your body systems. ( Lower blood pressure/ pulse etc within minutes.)

I believe great Martial arts fight choreography, if you could go back in time & film the sequence from above put it in animation patters it would come with this type of result. Now if we tried with Van Damm' s spinning repeated signature kick routine , i think we would only get a scribbled mess !!!

( Remember this is only MY opinion, don't get mad:wink:)

Xiexie Athena

PS. Since you believe in a learning curve in martial arts movies- do you think that applies regardless if one practices martial arts (& watches as a fan ) or just are a fan of the genre ??

[silver hermit]

" the 8 diagram sword style and pole style seem to be based on the esoterics of the i ching what do you think falkor?"

I am a great admire of Wushu ( always feel odd calling myself a "practitioner" compered with the real top practitioners , but anyway) . There is done some interesting tests/research on old wushu and Tai Chi forms. Filmed from above & then transcend in computer animations they create beautiful art/patterns. These patterns have been used in Taoist meditation for ever. Newer monitored research find when these patterns are learned mentally & visualized in test objects, it can immediately affect your body systems. ( Lower blood pressure/ pulse etc within minutes.)

I believe great Martial arts fight choreography, if you could go back in time & film the sequence from above put it in animation patters it would come with this type of result. Now if we tried with Van Damm' s spinning repeated signature kick routine , i think we would only get a scribbled mess !!!

( Remember this is only MY opinion, don't get mad:wink:)

Xiexie Athena

PS. Since you believe in a learning curve in martial arts movies- do you think that applies regardless if one practices martial arts (& watches as a fan ) or just are a fan of the genre ??

stay a while you have some interesting concepts in your mind.

falkor i don't think you understand where i was going with this but found a video where some scientists made a computer program that simulated the i chings geometry in a mathmatical equation. in my opinion the patterns athena mentions could be calulated by the same method.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GpQggmU6vk&playnext_from=TL&videos=ROu1EBYNR8M

[kungfusamurai]

Falkor, always trying to push our buttons!

You take out of a movie what you bring to it, as some have said. I like the 'shapes' because of the intricate combinations of hand and footwork the actors have to perform, which aren't easy to do. I feel the same way when I watch one of those classic musicals on TV when the dancers do intricate moves and footwork.

I've only basically investigated martial arts from what I read on the internet, so I can identify certain types, and that's partially how I appreciate them. That's one reason why I don't like a movie like Born Invincible where the lead character is supposed to be a tai chi master, yet he doesn't use anything that resembles that art.

My understanding of why the 'shapes' are done is very basic as well. I figure, it's probably an easy way for the student to remember the forms and the sequence of moves. This is most apparent if the master is calling out things like 'dragon appears from behind the clouds!' and the student performs a series of hand and foot movements based on that cue.

I think it's safe to say that I like a good 'shapes' film better than a basher or modern actioner, but it's not because I like seeing someone break out a tiger or crane stance per se. If all we had were movies showing hapkido or jiu jitsu, I'd be just as happy. Like I said, it's all about seeing intricate hand and foot work, all in a battle between good and evil.

Edit: I should add that my interest in martial arts movies started in childhood, watching them on TV, so I'm not exactly sure why I appreciated them then. My above comments are just how I learn to appreciate them in the last decade or so. As a kid, I guess I liked anything that showed fighting, and it was the nostalgia factor that got me back into the oldies in the late 90s.

KFS

[zeus]

watch the movie.. enjoy it and move on to next....no deep thought about shapes and stuff..and analyse this and that..its a hobby/passion of something you enjoy....not making a living on it or writing a book

[kungfusamurai]

watch the movie.. enjoy it and move on to next....no deep thought about shapes and stuff..and analyse this and that..its a hobby/passion of something you enjoy....not making a living on it or writing a book

True. It's not like we are supposed to get erections when Pops breaks out the hung gar. I like all kinds of stuff, not just kung fu. But then again, I don't sell kung fu films for a living.

KFS

[Fist Of Boss]

From which movie is that image?

:

I think guy on left is wong tao but I am not able to ID others.I have seen truckloads of Shaws and Bruce Lee clones but not much independent kf

[falkor]

True. It's not like we are supposed to get erections when Pops breaks out the hung gar. I like all kinds of stuff, not just kung fu. But then again, I don't sell kung fu films for a living.

KFS

That's what porno films are for! Kung Fu Movies are satisfying in other ways as discussed in this topic. Nothing wrong with that, otherwise we wouldn't waste 90 minutes of our life watching one.

PS. Since you believe in a learning curve in martial arts movies- do you think that applies regardless if one practices martial arts (& watches as a fan ) or just are a fan of the genre ??

I don't think there is much of a connection between practising martial arts and observing martial arts. They are 2 completely different kind of experiences (1 physical; 1 mental). Even watching a video games tournament is different to playing in one yourself. The only connection is that if you practised monkey style, you would be more familiar with some routines in Kid From Kwantung and better able to appreciate it.

[Killer Meteor]

I enjoy kung fu movies for the excitement and the exotic feel of them. I prefer the combination of acrobatics and Korean/Japanese styles that Bruce, Sammo and Jackie use over the 'shapes', which to me can be too much like a showing off display.

[shapes]

I think guy on left is wong tao but I am not able to ID others.I have seen truckloads of Shaws and Bruce Lee clones but not much independent kf

Yes it's Wong Tao, Chang Yi and Chung Hua, this is a posed still from the movie "Shaolin kung fu master"

Re Shapes films from 1976-84 I do believe that there are some people who have gene in them that attracts them to this kind of movement muxed with music and effects,

[rdenn]

a friend of came to my home and i had some shapes on some very heavy tv shapes with bruce liang and my mate doesnt even watch kung, and liang did a sick stance and i panicked and my mate reacted the same way, and that freaked me out he doesnt even watch movies or have a collection or nothing but he understood that stance , some people get shapes and some dont , you can sit some people down to watch it but half the people will not see what we see, so i dont even get upset anymore when people dont like shapes anymore some people understand it, others dont.

[GOLDEN DRAGON YIN-YANG]

Another thing about shapes its like showing your skills to freak out the opponent plus I guess it brings all your skills to the ready and willing to go.

Now do you think in real fights in the real world there would be a lot of shape shifting going on before a fight begins, I doubt it, you would just stand in your best position for defense and offense and fight.

GD Y-Y

[falkor]

a friend of came to my home and i had some shapes on some very heavy tv shapes with bruce liang and my mate doesnt even watch kung, and liang did a sick stance and i panicked and my mate reacted the same way, and that freaked me out he doesnt even watch movies or have a collection or nothing but he understood that stance , some people get shapes and some dont , you can sit some people down to watch it but half the people will not see what we see, so i dont even get upset anymore when people dont like shapes anymore some people understand it, others dont.

We need to analyse this more why some people understand it and others don't... I'm sure science can provide an answer.

[shapes]

We need to analyse this more why some people understand it and others don't... I'm sure science can provide an answer

Are you sure you understand it, your obsession with Koean cave based films leaves me to think you are still not ready yet

[Killer Meteor]

These are all VERY POOR answers! I am disappointed so far. Your animated gif says a lot more than your reply.

I have thought about trying to answer my own question and maybe try to point you guys in the right direction on what to think about, but it's a very difficult subject (art and aesthetics).

You know, Falkor, you're a colossal pain at the best of times.

[GOLDEN DRAGON YIN-YANG]

The shapes thing is mostly entertainment in these films and that's all.

Look at its predecessors. The the so called basher films there was hardly any shapes in these. Just raw fighting aimed to kill. More accurate to real life.

Too much thinking gets us nowhere sometimes.

This discussion fits that bill.

Good luck,

GD -Y-Y

[odioustrident]

Are you sure you understand it, your obsession with Koean cave based films leaves me to think you are still not ready yet

Haha does 4 Iron Men fall into that category?

[Drunken Monk]

I definitely think there is more to shapes than just on screen fighting, for me. There is something remarkable in the series of movements and I think there is something special in the fact that, in theory, shapes are just body movements perform to make up attacks and defenses and yet I am completely incapable of performing the actions. There is an art to it. It portrays on screen what I want real fights to be. It’s almost like intricate dance but more explosive.

Shapes takes the human ability to know martial arts and transforms it into visual poetry. Granted, it is just entertainment, but, for me, there is more to it than that. The rhythms, the styles, the acrobatics…it’s like seeing a work of art when done right.

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

We need to analyse this more why some people understand it and others don't... I'm sure science can provide an answer.

When I was studying cinema, one of my teachers ran a segment from a 50's sci-fi movie and told us too anylise it and find a second layer of interpretation. Some people found answers all wackier one then another, but, like you might have guessed, there was nothing to be found... You see that was to show us what overanylising can do, leading to try to find meaning where there isn't any.

Why do we like shapes? I don't think it's anything more special then ballet, jazz or opera for someone else. It doesn't require a superior intelligence to appreciate the poetry in motion on display when you watch a perfectly choreographed fight intricately designed and done in a perfect rythm, it just takes eyes. Does a poem has a scientific reason for touching you? It's not a question of understanding or not, it's a question of tastes. Other form of arts I don't "understand", not because I'm not intelligent enough, but because it doesn't reach me so I don't put much thought into trying to fully understand it.

Anyway, I don't think there is anything more to gain here then entertainment. There is no meaning to life to gain from realising that the choreography in the end fight of Massacre Survivor is circular and that the hoop are sharp:neutral: No second layer of interpretation beside the physical one.

[peringaten]

You guys who like watching this stuff should look into the martial arts that they are. What you see in 'shapes' is entirely practical stuff, I don't care how many dissent this as just 'movie-stuff', the base is often extremely practical, just conditioning & strung out applications (in reality one + well understood can suffice) one after another way longer than would actually occur & off course planned to perfection, but still, practise hard with enough understanding... I was watching 18 Bronzemen the other day - I swear that whole film is pretty much just ripped from gung gee fook fu kuen. Once you start getting deep into the background the foreground is pretty self-explanatory.

Anyone who thinks they're incapable would surprise themselves if they applied themselves, just the only thing is you couldn't remotely guess the intricacies even by watching repeatedly, you'd need someone to instruct properly - hard to find real good 'shapes-men' around the place; by that I mean traditional Southern practitioners who understand it on the level of the old Shaw & ilk guys; not just those who practise the kung fu... big difference.

[GOLDEN DRAGON YIN-YANG]

I agree that there is something to the idea of shapes.

BTW who here doesn't love the so called shapes in these movies. I am sure we all do.

Shapes is important in kung fu training.

But the term of the art is:

form or forms,

Tai Chi Chuan is rarely used correctly in the kung fu movies. I also was disappointed in Born Invincible rendition of Tai Chi.

Back to the analysis of all this, just what is Falkor attempting to get from this I am not sure.

But its been interesting to hear everyone's thoughts.

GD Y-Y

[falkor]

There is no meaning to life to gain from realising that the choreography in the end fight of Massacre Survivor is circular and that the hoop are sharp No second layer of interpretation beside the physical one.

With a bit of background information on the hoops and the realisation that Shih Szu has to avoid them throughout the end fight completely enhances the experience. The fight scene is no longer a blur of hoops and strikes, and instead all moves begin to be seen in context with one another, resulting in more "wow" moments:

Wow, she hit the guy with a crane strike through the hoop without getting cut (they also need to know what Crane Kung Fu looks like).

Wow, she avoided the hoops by diving through them backwards after first doing a back-flip and backroll.

Wow, she avoided a series of hoop strikes by performing 3 x 360 degree twists (one with her leg raised).

The above just cannot be appreciated without having the overview.

I am convinced that intelligence is an important factor in the appreciation of Kung Fu movies of the shapes period. The only reason why a first time observer doesn't understand it is because it's too advanced and complex, so without re-watching fight scenes and more Kung Fu movies, they are unlikely to ever become interested in the genre:

*Too much stuff will be happening for them to take in.

*No understanding; no appreciation other than the fact it's a smooth blur.