Shapes and Aesthetics

[falkor]

What is it about Kung Fu Movies--particularly those of the late 70s/early 80s shapes period--that makes them so fun, enjoyable, exciting, interesting and entertaining?

What exactly happens when we watch a Kung Fu film? Can the experience be explained and what makes it so good? Is there anything that is similar to watching a Kung Fu film? How would you explain to somebody who has never seen a Kung Fu film why you find them so good?

This is not an easy question and demands a deep answer. I was even maybe thinking of starting a competition to see who could come up with the best answer.

[kungfusamurai]

Is this going to be another thread about how any genre of film other than kung fu is crap?

I like kung fu partially for the stories (the oppressed rising up against the oppressor; avenging a wrong-doing), but when they are done cheap like the indies, then I like them when they showcase superhuman fighting skills. That's why I dislike too much under-cranking (like in Shaolin Against Lama), frame cutting (like in Born Invincible), or in the case of today's films, too much CGI and quick cuts. Watching the actors perform a dozen or so quick moves without the excessive under-cranking, in a single take, is awe-inspiring.

KFS

[The Dragon]

I've always had a simple view of this:

The Kung Fu film was like a Superhero/Super-heroic film in that the stars, (originally performing sfx guided feats), wowed audiences with a flair of the dramatic and supernatural... Then later, performing (realistic) feats due to actual experts being brought in, and lastly, a whole combination of the two, creating somewhat visually and athletically/physically acts that coupled with sometimes decent most times, shabby story-lines, that took so little to produce a great deal.

It was sort of like in the early 70's, when Blaxploitation assisted with the support of preventing Hollywood from going under.

We can always use good (Popcorn-fare) in between award-winning projects. Sometimes Popcorn-fare becomes award-winning!

[Guest Markgway]

I've seen God knows how many Kung Fu films over the years but I guess I've just never thought that deeply about them... lol

[Monk Sante]

For me it would be revenge, blood, training scenes, bad-ass kung fu chicks,fight choreography, weapons and of course the tea house fights!

"Is there anything that is similar to watching a Kung Fu film?" Hell No!

[Omni Dragon]

A good story with a good amount of action so i dont get bored, good vs evil, underdogs over coming & winning, training scenes, low use of special effects(what you is what you get)

[falkor]

A good story with a good amount of action so i dont get bored, good vs evil, underdogs over coming & winning, training scenes, low use of special effects(what you is what you get)

These are all VERY POOR answers! I am disappointed so far. Your animated gif says a lot more than your reply.

I have thought about trying to answer my own question and maybe try to point you guys in the right direction on what to think about, but it's a very difficult subject (art and aesthetics).

[Atherton]

I tried to answer this question earlier in the day but I spent too much time before posting and my answer dissapeared. To me two important aspects of film fighting is rhythm and spirit. These two factors to me were best exemplified in the era you stated. I think to some degree the filmmakers and on screen martial artists of this time really understood the essence of martial arts, "kung fu" if you will (which essentially means true skill that trancends surface beauty). I see this as an artist at work who is passionate about what they are trying to express. The best of these filmmakers either consciously or unconsciously fed off each other which allowed them to push things further in terms of onscreen fight choreography. You combine these elements with basic stories of loyality and heroism, actors who were believable in their emotions and their physical abilities. This era produced these types of films in greater volume (based on my observations). The average filmgoer is easily wowed by the sound and fury displayed in newer films. But those who wish to dig deeper within this genres history know the difference, we are more inclined to want to know why these films affect us the way they do and therefore we have collections in the thousands stilll searching out more and more. I am a fan of these films as well and knowing that there may be more to search out and discover is very promising. I tend to not rationalize these feelings or put them into words. Like Bruce Lee said "don't think, feel". I also consider what Tsui Hark says "the audience is made to feel and not understand". For fans who wish to look beneath the surface they most likely wish to seek out both and to undertsand what it is they feel.

[odioustrident]

This is a question I'm sure a lot of people have asked themselves at one point, but really forgot the answer when they got back into the groove of collecting, watching films etc...

All I know is that I've been obsessed with pre-CGI special effects my entire life. That includes stop motion animation, animatronics/mechanical effects, and all the prosthetic stuff. Those interests seemed to always run in phases according to one of the three things above. Anyone else had this experience or anything like it?

I would bet that a lot of people on this forum, like myself, have had some time for science fiction, horror, or fantasy in their lives. I think that super-heroics connection is definitely big. People imitating other natural forms with their hands is kind of "superhuman" as far as film is concerned.

I think watching martial arts probably stimulates people the same way that dance as an art form might stimulate others. There has to be a strong overlap there, besides the obvious. Watching dance never really hooked me as a kid, probably because it didn't represent anything that I could relate to in my life. Dance in the form of fighting seems to relate to some people more directly. Also, the intricacies of normal dance are hard for someone to follow if they aren't familiar with it. A good shapes movie can have a really complicated exchange and you can tell what actually happened. Haha either that or most dance is just really too obvious in its movements and shapes are not....

Dance, at least the little dance I've seen, wants to work with metaphor etc..; its an interpretation of what is happening, not a strict (or not so strict ) recreation of the real thing....

[Omni Dragon]

These are all VERY POOR answers! I am disappointed so far. Your animated gif says a lot more than your reply.

I have thought about trying to answer my own question and maybe try to point you guys in the right direction on what to think about, but it's a very difficult subject (art and aesthetics).

"A picture is worth a thousand words"

Everybody's opinion is valued that the whole point of a forum.

My answer is incorrect how would you know with out knowing the right answer & is there a correct answer? because isn't it philosophical people interpret a KFfilm differently.

[GOLDEN DRAGON YIN-YANG]

As was just remarked upon by JRCMA each person is different and sees in a different manner.

For me it was a very emotional experience with my first viewing of kung fu cinema.

When I was in the 6th 7th & 8th grades I lived in Tennessee and moved there from up north. In those grades mentioned as a Yankee and an odd kid I found myself getting bullied a lot and occasionally pummeled by the little rednecks. My dad who was an expert in Japanese martial arts (he never taught me) would get upset at me for taking a beating would scold me and tell don't take that BS hit the MF with something don't take it from them. I never fought back. They would hit me I would fall and that would be the end of it. Call me what thou whilst but I just felt sorry for those little bastards.

So upon seeing a kung fu movie triple header in 1971 with my ex wife. I as well as she were BLOWN away by the experience.

For me I never knew people could fight like that and the awe of those films first impressions sent me on a journey into the mystery's of Chinese martial arts, philosophy and culture that paid off in unimaginable big dividends that continue to this day.

I am grateful to the genre for the instruction given.

GD Y-Y

[Athena]

These are all VERY POOR answers! I am disappointed so far. Your animated gif says a lot more than your reply.

I have thought about trying to answer my own question and maybe try to point you guys in the right direction on what to think about, but it's a very difficult subject (art and aesthetics).

falkor !

Base on your question in the first place & you criticism of other members view, feelings & opinion on the subject ( subject as in "subjective" -not a objective right or wrong ). I must at the very least believe that you have a couple of masters ( or higher) degrees, certainly in Art ? & definitely in Asia Cultures/languages, Buddhist & Taoist philosophy ,Asian history,Asian Art & Art History ? Combined with many years worth of personal studies of the art , history & cultures surrounding the source of the wuxia pian ( novels) leading to the wuxia movies & martial arts movies. & I would expect a long study of some forms of martial arts?

If this is not the case , your reply would just be EXZACTLY THAT - just your opinion, nothing more.. & you would not want to lower yourself to that level ( where the rest of us are..) now would you ?

Sincerely Athena

[Fang Shih-yu]

falkor !

Base on your question in the first place & you criticism of other members view, feelings & opinion on the subject ( subject as in "subjective" -not a objective right or wrong ). I must at the very least believe that you have a couple of masters ( or higher) degrees, certainly in Art ? & definitely in Asia Cultures/languages, Buddhist & Taoist philosophy ,Asian history,Asian Art & Art History ? Combined with many years worth of personal studies of the art , history & cultures surrounding the source of the wuxia pian ( novels) leading to the wuxia movies & martial arts movies. & I would expect a long study of some forms of martial arts?

If this is not the case , your reply would just be EXZACTLY THAT - just your opinion, nothing more.. & you would not want to lower yourself to that level ( where the rest of us are..) now would you ?

Sincerely Athena

Does anybody else LIKE Athena besides me?

[Fang Shih-yu]

Indeed, what answer does Brother falkor seek? If nobody includes the secret words "Shapes" and "Aesthetics" in their response, they fall short of his limited frame of mind: the same one highlighted in his "Who or what killed the genre?" thread. (Once upon a time, he MUST have enjoyed a martial arts movie the way we mere MORTALS do, right? ) If his last posting is any indication, he'll eventually answer the question HIMSELF and tell everybody who posted their responses, in essence (to quote the late Dom Deluise from "Blazing Saddles"), "WRONG!!":tongue: I have no problem with all the responses I read, as do others who have read them, too (and you know who you are)! I dare say not even Ric Meyers could satiate Brother falkor's quest to have his OWN OPINION confirmed anew!... Maybe we should leave Brother falkor alone in this thread, submitting replys to HIMSELF!

[Guest Markgway]

I like Athena Chu. Does that count?

[falkor]

Sorry, maybe WRONG was the wrong word to use. What I meant to say was: the answers to this topic question are too basic and brief without really getting to the core of what's happening when we watch a shapes film. Atherton, so far, seems to be the only person who has put any thought into it, but even then he/she hasn't really tried to understand it beyond a basic level.

[falkor]

I've been thinking about this for a few weeks and will have a go at answering it by breaking it down into sub-questions:

1) What kind of entertainment is shapes?

Shapes are superhuman feats of expressing the body through gymnastics, acrobatics, dancing and contact between 2 or more performers often representing formations and symmetry. These movements/maneuvers/stances are choreographed into a video sequence by the action director(s). Camera angles, undercranking, slow motion, and sound effects are added to enhance each part of the sequence.

2) What happens when we watch shapes?

We are observing something amazing and spectacular that we don't often see from other people. We appreciate the skill and creativity of the performer(s) and the action choreographer(s). We feel awe-struck combined with other pleasant emotions/feelings that are hard to describe, but are similar to what we experience with other art forms, such as music--or maybe taking drugs--albeit a more natural high energy experience on the edge of our seat with a pounding heart and adrenaline rush. It's not like we want to be physical and imitate what we are seeing; it's purely a mental/psychological experience based around the brain.

3) What happens in our brains when we watch shapes?

Shapes takes a certain kind of intelligence to recognise, interpret, follow, and understand, in order to appreciate them, which only comes with exposure, time, acceptance and the ability to escape from reality. This is because shapes are very complicated, unusual, and happen very fast-paced. The more familiar you are and the more you learn, the more you can concentrate and enjoy a longer lasting experience. Eventually, your brain will be able to process nearly every shape that it's being bombarded with, and this information overload could potentially be dangerous to your mental state of health?

4) Why are shapes better entertainment than martial arts films from other periods?

Shapes tend to feature animal styles and other unusual esoteric styles that may not necessarily be effective in real life street fights, but are very pleasing to observe as an art form. For example, the arcing movements of the Snake & Crane is more pleasing to watch than, say, styles that use linear punches. Another factor is longer takes and the ability of the old school choreographers to combine one advanced movement with the next, making the transition as smooth as possible. Being set in a traditional environment also adds to the atmosphere and escapism.

5) Is there anything that is similar to shapes? Fireworks displays maybe?

Peking Opera, circuses, ballet, talent shows, but nothing really compares. Shapes are the most superior amalgamation of this kind of entertainment.

[peringaten]

Your entire perception of "shapes" would change totally if you studied the traditional arts that they actually are. I can absolutely guarantee that you are not processing everything you see on screen just by watching lots. You might think you understand, but you won't. It's akin to listening to jazz music without studying scales and harmonic/melodic/rhythmic theory in detail. You can still appreciate as much as anyone, that's inexplicable, but you will never truly understand without that outside foundational background. Some of your perception, derived understanding & terminology could be construed as esoterically bizarre, even by yourself if you dived deeper.

[falkor]

I'm not saying I understand it fully, but I feel I've given it the best attempt so far within this topic. If anyone else thinks they can provide a deeper explanation or expand on mine, based on their personal experiences that may differ to my own, please be our guest... I could not have written the above without first having a verbal conversation with few fans at work, including a couple of first time observers and getting their feedback.

[Fist Of Boss]

How would you explain to somebody who has never seen a Kung Fu film why you find them so good?

I would not even bother....When that somebody watches kungfu movies 1st time and at very least do not hate it there is foundation for further discussion.

If he hates it,lecturing greatness of kungfu cinema is waste of time.

[falkor]

I would not even bother....When that somebody watches kungfu movies 1st time and at very least do not hate it there is foundation for further discussion.

If he hates it,lecturing greatness of kungfu cinema is waste of time.

I did these tests for the first time recently. What I found out is that people do generally find it interesting, but fail to take in much information. For example, you can show the end fight of Massacre Survivor to somebody. They might comment that it's fast, fluid, and show appreciation of the actors and choreography. They will observe the acrobatics but won't really know what to make it. However, they will not realise that the hoops are sharp, nor that Shih Szu has to avoid them by poking her limbs in and out to hit the opponent without touching the spikes, diving through them but avoiding the spikes and twisting around them to avoid the lunges. The whole "circular" style of choreography is completely missed by a first time observer.

[shapes]

What is it about Kung Fu Movies--particularly those of the late 70s/early 80s shapes period--that makes them so fun, enjoyable, exciting, interesting and entertaining?

[silver hermit]

falkor it seems you are looking for a brain exercise with shapes. wrap your head around these

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXy_8KVZS9I&feature=related

[Athena]

Shapes, very good choice of image !

falkor!

Nice of you to re phrase yourself, very professional !!

I think there is one additional factor that may apply to this subject, but like in Taoism "

" the Tao cannot be expressed " despite endless volumes being written, very high level discussions occurring. On the subject of this tread I firmly believe that in addition to all deep reasons given ( There is thieses written on this subject -Not written word for word like falkor's title but an analyzing this subject. I can try to post links if anyone is interested ( in traditional Chinese but it may work with translation software? ). There is the X-factor ,It- factor, the " real Tao cannot be expressed " ,call it what you choose.

I started to study ballet when I were 5 so I can relate to the comments referring to dance etc., but I also know fans of martial arts who would fall asleep watching "The Swan Lake"

So I believe there is a " feel for " ,a "connection ", " a touch for " these movies we have or not . It can not be developed ,educated , learned, trained etc..

YOU EITHER GOT IT OR YOU DON'T ! :bigsmile:

Please don't think I am discouraging this subject from being discussed ,I think IT IS GREAT !!! I just think this additional factor should be considered too.

PS. Since we are on the subject of analyzing here, may I ask your top choice of SWORD movies falkor?? I like to analyze that one !!!!!

Xierxie, Athena

[falkor]

PS. Since we are on the subject of analyzing here, may I ask your top choice of SWORD movies falkor?? I like to analyze that one !!!!!

1) Sword Of Justice

2) Duel To The Death

3) Don't have a 3rd favourite.

I also like weapons movies like Super Ninjas and Masked Avengers and Magnificent Ruffians etc. A lot of complicated stuff happens in those films... pure brain food!

You have any firm favourites?