Who or what killed the genre?

[falkor]

I'm trying to figure out what happened between 1982-1985 to kill the Classic Kung Fu genre.

The Classic Kung Fu genre reached it's peak around the shapes period of 1978-1979, and those type of movies could loosely be described as containing combinations of the following:

*Movies about martial arts and with training scenes

*Movies with animal styles or other esoteric weapons/styles

*Movies set in a traditional environment

*Movies that are more serious than comedy

Anything that meets the above requirements in full could be considered a "pure" example of the Kung Fu genre, whereas some films--even during the shapes period--could quite easily deviate from that formula yet still retain enough criteria to be considered a shapes film.

Everytime a famous director or star changed one or more of the above elements, he/she was essentially trying to attract viewers from other genres and possibly appeal more to the mainstream. BTW, I don't think Kung Fu films were ever really mainstream (only during the Bruce Lee craze), except possibly in 78-79 when quite a few were featured in the top 20 HK box-office hits. Anyway, everytime celebrities featured basic martial arts of no particular style, set in modern day, with a slapstick comedy element, they were taking a dangerous stab at the genre and would eventually kill it--for profit.

It could be argued, however, that tastes changed and the audience wanted something different. I don't buy that. Martial arts films of the mid-80s are inferior to martial arts films of the late 70s. The difference is: mid-80s appealed more to the generation of the time, with modern elements of comedy and more famliarity through their experience with other movie genres and lack of exposure to pure Kung. Also, people are like sheep and will follow whatever the latest fashion is as dictated by famous celebrities.

So who or what killed the genre? I believe that 2 famous actors/directors of the shapes period were the same ones responsible for bringing it down: Jackie Chan and Samo Hung.

2 Drunk Monkey In The Tiger's 05/10/78- 03/11/78 30 $6,763,793.40

10 Warrior's Two 28/12/78- 11/01/79 15 $2,863,467.80

2 Fearless Hyena, The, 17/02/79- 07/03/79 19 $5,445,535.50

6 Magnificent Butcher, The, 19/12/79- 02/01/80 15 $3,945,341.40

3 Big Brawl, The 16/10/80- 29/10/80 14 $5,776,530.00

6 Encounter of the Spooky 24/12/80- 08/01/81 16 $5,675,626.00

2 Dragon Lord 21/01/82- 13/02/82 24 $17,936,344.00

1 Project 'A' 22/12/83- 11/01/84 21 $19,323,824.00

1 My Lucky Stars 10/02/85- 08/03/85 27 $30,748,643.00

2 Twinkle Twinkle Little 15/08/85- 10/09/85 27 $28,911,851.00

Star

3 Police Story 14/12/85- 10/01/86 28 $26,626,760.00

[Fist Of Boss]

Interesting...when modern day crime/triad became popular in HK someone noticed traditional poses/shapes do not look good enough in modern day film but just toned it down to regular punches and kicks.And fights did not last long anymore

Tasted DO change(there has been seasons I have been off from kung-fu films months,once even years) and if/when kung-fu films produced in 1985´s were inferior to movies made last decade several fans might very well search new territories.

I can understand for new audience back then chow yun fat with doubleguns appeared more exciting that dude in traditional costumes with spear in hand.

[falkor]

I can understand for new audience back then chow yun fat with doubleguns appeared more exciting that dude in traditional costumes with spear in hand.

The genre had already mutated before Chow Yun Fat came on the scene. I don't think mid-80s viewers would have seen enough pure Kung Fu films to even compare with Chow Yun Fat. I just think more people were attracted to HK movies from other genres, and any minority of Kung Fu fans would have had no choice but to watch the new stuff unless they became a collector of the old. There's no way that double guns is more exciting; it's just that more people are familiar with Italian mafia films etc.

[Fist Of Boss]

Could Tsui Hark be one of those responsible?I think after Zu warriors swordsmen started to fly and shoot fireballs from palms.

[Killer Meteor]

I think over saturation killed it, simply far too many films, very similar to each other. Also, there is a big move in the 80s from period films to modern day action.

Jackie and Sammo didn't kill it, they kept it going until the ship nearly sank beneath the waves. Shaws was performing from Davy Jones Locker.

Audiences had clearly had enough, and as I repeatedly point out, all the shapes in the world can't help you if your film's boring.

Another factor: the move in Hong Kong from Mandarin cinema to Cantonese, which resulted in a transition in tone from tradtional stories and characters into comedy and fast modern life. The 80s was when Hong Kong cinema became bona fide Hong Kong cinema.

[Killer Meteor]

Oh and Falkor, since you're back to post more ignorant swipes at non kung fu movies, perhaps you can explain your scam like ways in the Massacre Survivor thread?

[Fist Of Boss]

I think over saturation killed it, simply far too many films, very similar to each other.

Tell me about it.Can only guess how many times it`s been done kung-fu master (who later gets killed by old enemy) teaches humiliated but goodhearted kid how to fight.And kid learns new form of fighting style and avenges him...

I know many people watch these movies for fights only but there are around also fair share of those who care plot too.And when it`s too predictable it does not interest me...

[falkor]

Jackie and Sammo didn't kill it, they kept it going until the ship nearly sank beneath the waves.

How'd you figure that one out? They never directed or starred in proper shapes films after Young Master (1980) and Prodigal Son (1981), respectively. Even then they was drifting away from their 78-79 hits. In other words: once they had become famous, rather than carry on making pure Kung, they tried to appeal to a greater audience.

[falkor]

Let's look at who kept it going the longest after Jackie and Samo had left to do new wave modern day HK action with Golden Harvest (they should be strung up damn traitors!):

1983+

Lee Tso Nam/Robert Tai/Lo Rei/Chang Shan: Shaolin Vs. Lama, Shaolin Chastity Kung Fu, Shaolin Vs. Ninja, Guards of Shaolin, 5 Fighters From Shaolin, Ninja Hunter, Shaolin Temple Against Lama, Ninja The Final Duel.

The Koreans/Hwang Jang Lee: 7-Star Grand Mantis, Snake Fist Of A Buddhist Dragon, Dreadnaught Rivals, Canton Viper, Blue Butterfly The Amazon, South Shaolin Vs. North Shaolin, Shaolin Vs. Tai Chi, Duel of Ultimate Weapons.

The Mainlanders: Disciples of the Shaolin Temple, Undaunted Wu-Tang, Marshes of Liang Shan Po, Raiders of Yunkang Caves, Young Hero of Shaolin, Young Heroes, South Shaolin Master.

The Shaws/Gordon Liu/LKL: Shaolin Intruders, 8 Diagram, Shaolin and Wu-Tang, Disciples of the 36th Chamber, Bastard Swordsman, Lady Assassin, Shaolin Temple 3.

The Taiwanese: Abbot White 2, Little Hero of Shaolin Temple, Fight Among The Supers + more?

Others/Movies: Shaolin Vs. Manchu + sure there's more?

Others/TV: many.

[odioustrident]

I think over saturation killed it, simply far too many films, very similar to each other. Also, there is a big move in the 80s from period films to modern day action.

Jackie and Sammo didn't kill it, they kept it going until the ship nearly sank beneath the waves. Shaws was performing from Davy Jones Locker.

Audiences had clearly had enough, and as I repeatedly point out, all the shapes in the world can't help you if your film's boring.

Another factor: the move in Hong Kong from Mandarin cinema to Cantonese, which resulted in a transition in tone from tradtional stories and characters into comedy and fast modern life. The 80s was when Hong Kong cinema became bona fide Hong Kong cinema.

I think most of what you're saying is dead on, but it seems like every phase in the HK film industry is a little saturated plotwise. These two books cover a lot on this issue, mostly in their discussion of Shaw Bros. studio eventually going down. They both (?) cover Hong Kong's growing distance from the mainland, as well as a ton of other factors I can't remember.

Hoover, Michael and Lisa Odham Stokes. City on Fire: Hong Kong Cinema. New York, NY: Verso, 1999

Desser, David and Poshek Fu. The Cinema of Hong Kong: History, Arts, Identity. New York, New York: Cambridge UP, 2000

Also, Jackie and Sammo made their own creative choices in their films. Supposedly they could not have made those choices under Shaw Bros. The Shaw Studio was still doing shapes in '84 after those two were long done with it. You could definitely say they killed it, but in a way they were seeing the genre off, the same thing thats happened to every 5+ year trend in HK film.

If Jackie/Sammo had been with Shaw Bros. in the early 80s, then the scene would have lasted a little longer IMO. Who knows. There was a bidding war with Golden Harvest to get Jackie's contract right?

Anyone know any other interesting articles/books on the history of the HK/Taiwan kung fu scene?

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Oh and Falkor, since you're back to post more ignorant swipes at non kung fu movies, perhaps you can explain your scam like ways in the Massacre Survivor thread?

good luck getting him to do that! He seems completely oblivious to the fact that he has been called out! I myself have no dog in this fight. But im interested in seeing his response:neutral:

[kungfusamurai]

Various people including the martial arts actors and directors themselves have said that HK audiences tastes in movies changed.

It's just like here in north america where a certain type of film will be what people want to see, then after too much, or something else comes along that's really different, the wind changes.

No big mystery or plot by the triads. It just happened.

KFS

[kungfusamurai]

How'd you figure that one out? They never directed or starred in proper shapes films after Young Master (1980) and Prodigal Son (1981), respectively. Even then they was drifting away from their 78-79 hits. In other words: once they had become famous, rather than carry on making pure Kung, they tried to appeal to a greater audience.

Doesn't Drunken Master II for Jackie count? Or I can even go back to Dragon Lord, which had Whang Ing Sik using Hapkido on Mars and Jackie.

Pops did do Lady Is The Boss in 1983, which was a modern actioner using his traditional fighting forms. We could also argue that Heroes of The East was a modern actioner, if modern means the 1930s or 40s when it took place.

KFS

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

Shaws were still doing shapes flicks in 1985!! They were reluctant to change, the splendid shaw sets looked incredibly outdated by then (even the ones used for modern day films) and the orange painty blood looked fake and ridiculous!

And calling Jackie and Sammo traitors is retarded, even for you, falkor. So im gonna asume that you were kidding, though somehow I doubt it!

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

So I guess the answer to your original titular question is... It killed itself!

[The Dragon]

Before his death, Bruce had said he only "anticipated Kung Fu films lasting another three years, for they would become boring and repetitious." His death created a void, in the industry which allowed audiences to place a demand for another standard and star, not simply copycat fare. Thus, when shapes, acrobatic, Shaolin stories, and comedy came on the scene, the genre thrived an additional five years or so, then copycat fare wore audiences down again. Triad and police dramas became popular...

The rest is history.

Once Upon A Time In China, rejuvenated the genre, however, Jet Li was the Lone Star, and competitive Studios, like Shaws, were no longer around producing the lavish settings and stable of stars.

Just an opinion.

[falkor]

It's just like here in north america where a certain type of film will be what people want to see, then after too much, or something else comes along that's really different, the wind changes.

No big mystery or plot by the triads. It just happened.

I see what you guys are saying about "the genre killed itself", but that theory just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I'm sorry, but anyone who became a fan of Jackie/Sammo as they became famous in 78/79 (time of box office hits DM and Warriors Two) would not want to see them next in a movie like Police Story, Project A or Zu Warriors. It's not like fans have a way of communicating with their favourite celebrities, either. Nobody would have said to Jackie: "I don't like you using Snake style Kung Fu against Eagle's Claw nor dressed in traditional chinese clothes, but instead, I hope your next movie will feature guns, explosives and only basic martial arts." This just could not have happened. A more likely scenario is this: Jackie and Samo became big names in HK because of their pure Kung Fu hits. The HK businessmen would have spoken, and knowing how much money is made from mainstream Hollywood movies, tried to produce them more akin to that albeit with their own HK influence, thereby merging genres. The films--no longer pure Kung Fu--attract new fans, and most old fans will continue to support their favourite celebrities. Before people even realise it, they are no longer watching the same film genre.

[The Dragon]

No, falkor, I was saying Triad stories and Police dramas became the new focus, in the film industry... You know, the films with Michael Chan Wai Man, and Chow Yun Fat.

People were burnt out on Kung Fu.

[falkor]

Lo Rei is my new hero!!! Mr. Lo and Mr. Tai, if you are both listening, please can you come out of retirement to make another movie like this?

[falkor]

No, falkor, I was saying Triad stories and Police dramas became the new focus, in the film industry... You know, the films with Michael Chan Wai Man, and Chow Yun Fat.

People were burnt out on Kung Fu.

They became the new focus, sure (if more people are willing to watch them), but whose to say that people who were once fans of Kung Fu movies suddenly became bored of them and prefered to watch triad movies instead? Police/triad movies were going for years in the West, and with the HK industry not as rich, as soon as they got their first major celebrities, to make money they had no choice but to adapt to Hollywood style. Most of their new fame and fortunes would have come from fans who hadn't even seen Warriors Two before.

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

It's funny because I was thinking about taht this week and wanted to post something too. I just didn't under what angle approaching it.

First I thought, even though it proved to be a huge success early on, the Kung Fu comedy did a lot of arm to kung fu movies. I mean, it seemed fresh at first, but all the copycats that followed dilluded the genre. Movies became more and more unfocussed, repeating tried and tested formulas, with the same easy broad humor.

But this is not completely true, since, in the later modern craze, Comedy proved to play a big part once again and to great success...

I think boredom must be the real factor at play. I mean, for each original take on the genre, how many rehashed have the public been exposed to in each kung fu boom? Just think of the 78-80 period, there is an insane amount of kung fu movies from the same mold that hit the screen back then. The talent involved in the productions wasn't alwas top quality. Less charismatic stars, repetitive choreo. lesser production values, etc...

People got sick of it probably. They needed something fresh and then came the "moderns". Painful choreography and stunts were the trend of the day.

But again, people got sick of that too and by the end of the 80s and early 90s those type of movies were less successful. Tsui Hark had brought back the old stuff but with a modern twist.

And then another craze came that lasted roughly 4-5 years.

But one could argue, did each trend end because people got sick of it or because a new one supplented it? I think the first one is more probable. I mean not everyone is interested into seeing roughly the same movies over and over again just to watch slightly subtlely different type of choreography... I like it, but sometimes I need a break from each type of trends and switch to another... The problem must have been too much of the same back in each period...

[Killer Meteor]

Its telling that Dragon Lord was considered by Jackie to be a creative and relative box office failure, suggesting he was in a quagmire.

Another factor:

Part of Bruce Lee and Jackie's appeal was that they played everymen. The films that made them stars, Big Boss and Snake In Eagle's Shadow, feature them as common ordinary people (albiet with killer kung fu moves in Bruce's case). They are exploited workers, with no money. Surely audiences related to them more then they did to noble warriors, Shaolin monks and weirdos with no balls?

Hence the switch to modern day films.

[Killer Meteor]

I think the whole 'shapes' thing had the problem in that it looked fake, too much like a performance. As a novelty, or under great choreography, its fine, but a lot of them aren't much more gripping then a ballet performance.

And really, I can see audiences getting sick of secret manuals, lists of names, and those pug ugly Ching dynasty hair cuts.

Also, the increase of period shows with traditional martial arts on the television.

"I'm sorry, but anyone who became a fan of Jackie/Sammo as they became famous in 78/79 (time of box office hits DM and Warriors Two) would not want to see them next in a movie like Police Story, Project A or Zu Warriors"

Not everyone is an anti-social, mastubatory fanboy who cons people. It is entirely possible to enjoy both the old fashioned and the modern day styles of kung fu, and not be ridiculed, especially by a loser like you.

[gfanikf]

Not everyone is an anti-social, mastubatory fanboy who cons people. It is entirely possible to enjoy both the old fashioned and the modern day styles of kung fu, and not be ridiculed, especially by a loser like you.

Yeah, I mean look at Beardy for example, Two on the Road and Hong Kong Godfathers, both great movies that are massively different. I'd just say over-saturation, just like with the Western in the 30s/40s and its revival in Europe (and eventually running its course again) in the 60s/70s.

[Fang Shih-yu]

You're blunt and to the point, Killer Meteor! Brother falkor seems to prefer "old school" martial arts movies over the "modern" ones...not that there's anything wrong with that! It appears he hasn't taken in many later (1985-present) movies, compared to the "classics", so his opinions can't HELP but have a slant to them! I have no problem with "old school" OR "modern" ones: just the ones BADLY made! By the way, falkor...in one way, shape, or form, martial arts movies are STILL around! The genre's NOT dead; it's alive and well, available through many forms 24/7! Only the full-blown '70s CRAZE is dead, and that's because IT'S NO LONGER THE '70s! I don't know every last thing about these movies, but, at least, I have an OPEN MIND about them!