Member blue_skies Posted April 10, 2010 Author Member Share Posted April 10, 2010 Agree some films are mislabelled as martial-arts just because they are Asian films. But to label only films featuring stories about martial-arts as martial-arts film is just as ridiculous. If everyone were to agree with you there wouldn't be a martial-arts section to visit at the video store. By your calculations they would be so insignificant in numbers it wouldn't be worth mentioning. As for the majority of martial-arts films not dealing with martial-arts but key story lines like revenge would be lost among a sea of Western films. Personally I like the term martial-arts as its an all-encompassing label that includes not only Asian but all global forms. I don't like terms like wire Fu or gun fu but it's definitely not racist and I'm sure that this has been discussed before, so need not be elaborated further. Anyway I thought most people referred to John Woo's films you listed and similar types as heroic bloodshed at least that's what I call them... Or Asian action. Oh yes I've just thought another reason why you're wrong. You don't call a film a comedy because the film is about comedy and studying the processes of how comedians make their craft. No it's called a comedy because it makes you laugh. The story can be anything you like. Similarly you don't call anything sci-fi just because the story is about science fiction. The story could be as mundane as anyone's everyday life but simply setting it in the future makes it sci-fi Martial-arts films feature actors/actresses who perform martial-arts actions, whether they are skilled or unskilled is another matter. I do think there's more to it than that but to say that story has to have something about it is ludicrous. As has been mentioned how can you not say that watching lots of skilled on-screen fighters performing wonderfully choreographed moves, either directly taken from a specific martial-arts or inspired by or both is not a martial-arts movie? Obviously there's more to martial-arts than just the physical side. But just because they don't contain the mental, the spirit, the philosophies isn't enough in my opinion to disqualify them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member odioustrident Posted April 10, 2010 Member Share Posted April 10, 2010 I think a few people on this thread were indicating that plot wasn't the end-all standard for putting a film in any genre (I agree with that). I was just giving the usual (I think) reasons for that argument. Its a question of whether you use plot to define genre, some other content, or both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member The Running Man Posted April 11, 2010 Member Share Posted April 11, 2010 Personally I like the term martial-arts as its an all-encompassing label that includes not only Asian but all global forms. blue skies, you keep misinterpreting many things I write. I'm not talking about "forms". I already said this when you brought up that Bruce Lee thing that had nothing to do with what I am saying. I don't like terms like wire Fu or gun fu but it's definitely not racist and I'm sure that this has been discussed before, so need not be elaborated further. It's been talked about before but that doesn't mean the judge came with the gavel and made a final decision. I decided to stop discussing the matter further as I had other things to do at the time and eventually forgot about it. Someone decided to bring it up again here so I reiterated my position. Oh yes I've just thought another reason why you're wrong. You don't call a film a comedy because the film is about comedy and studying the processes of how comedians make their craft. No it's called a comedy because it makes you laugh. The story can be anything you like. Similarly you don't call anything sci-fi just because the story is about science fiction. The story could be as mundane as anyone's everyday life but simply setting it in the future makes it sci-fi Actually, those points only further prove my point. Comedies are rarely about comedians but they are almost always centered around characters finding themselves in situations that are meant to be humorous. Those humorous situations are also what move the plot forward. Sci-Fi films don't have to be about science but they have to be set in a fictional future where advancements have been made in those settings that are beyond are own. So, if you take out the "comedy" element out of let's say "Porkey's", you don't have a movie anymore. Take out the "sci-fi" out of "Star Trek" and you don't have a series or movie. However, if I take out the "comedy" out of "Star Trek" I still have a series or a movie. Take the "martial arts" out of "Drunken Master 2" and you don't have a movie anymore. Take the "martial arts" out of "Armour of God 2" and you still have a movie. Martial-arts films feature actors/actresses who perform martial-arts actions, whether they are skilled or unskilled is another matter. By this very definition, all 3 Bourne films are martial arts movies. As has been mentioned how can you not say that watching lots of skilled on-screen fighters performing wonderfully choreographed moves, either directly taken from a specific martial-arts or inspired by or both is not a martial-arts movie? What about "The Karate Kid"? I wouldn't call any of those action scenes impressive but by your definition here it is not a martial arts movie because the the actions are not being performed "wonderfully". But just because they don't contain the mental, the spirit, the philosophies isn't enough in my opinion to disqualify them. Again, you are misreading me. I am not limiting it to that. Bloodmoon is not a movie talking about the mental, spiritual or any philosophy related to martial arts. However, it is a martial arts movie because the entire story centers around the result of a martial arts tournament, the killer is a martial artist and his targets are martial artists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator One Armed Boxer Posted April 12, 2010 Moderator Share Posted April 12, 2010 This thread has become pitiful...really...I shake my head in disbelief while reading it. Running Man, according to your definition of what makes a martial arts movies, I`d like you to name at least 20 movies made in the 90`s that fit your definition. Why 20? Blue_skies has asked for a top 10, so we should at least have a number double that to choose from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member The Running Man Posted April 13, 2010 Member Share Posted April 13, 2010 One Armed Boxer, I don't really get your request. It sounds to me more like a challenge or a punishment of some kind but I'll do it anyway: Drunken Master 2 Fist of Legend Once Upon A Time In China series Fong Sai Yuk 1 & 2 Burning Paradise Blade of Fury Only the Strong The Quest Iron Monkey Bloodmoon Tai Chi Master Tai Chi 2 American Shaolin Wing Chun Hero Among Heroes The Scorpion King The Blade The Swordsman series King of Beggars Dragon The Bruce Lee Story Know that I didn't pick films that I necessarily like or dislike. I just picked from the list of movies that have been mentioned so far and filled in a couple of more to make 20 like you asked. I also counted several movie series as "one" movie just to make the task "harder". All those movies are set in a martial arts world (i.e. wu xia films), are based on martial art figures (real or literary) or simply have martial arts somehow directly connected to the story of the film. I don't think what I was writing was difficult to understand and I certainly hope that's not what you were getting at when you wrote "pitiful". Try applying it and see what happens. You see, when one starts naming movies "martial arts movies" what is being said? If it's just a bunch of people using forms of combat in fight scenes then that has just described almost every other action movie ever made and of course not every action movie ever made can be called a "martial arts movie". So what is it? Many times when someone says "martial arts movie" then they think "Asian" and what happens is that people just start naming movies "martial arts movies" just because there is an Asian who is fighting in it. However, there are movies that are very connected with some sort of component of "martial arts". Therefore I am saying that those movies there must earn the title of "martial arts movie" more than a movie whose only connection to martial arts is a bunch of Asians fighting. I can guarantee you that if Police Story 3 was made in Hollywood instead and it had white actors then no one would be calling it a martial arts movie. The reason is simple: Because it's not. Some people label Police Story 3 a "martial arts movie" just because it has Jackie Chan in it who started his career and rose to fame because of martial arts movies but that doesn't mean everything he has made and makes are martial arts movies. Like I said, it would be like calling "Philadelphia" a comedy just because Tom Hanks was in it since before that movie he was known mostly for comic films. Please don't anyone take this as a discouraging message to not participate in this thread. I brought this up so that we can understand as fans what we actually mean when we say a movie is a "martial arts movie". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator One Armed Boxer Posted April 14, 2010 Moderator Share Posted April 14, 2010 One Armed Boxer, I don't really get your request. It sounds to me more like a challenge or a punishment of some kind but I'll do it anyway You can take it as a punishment for completely derailing what should have been a really fun thread, out of the 56 posts on here....40 of them are in response to your endlessly repetative ramblings on what makes a martial arts films, or now, what makes a comedy film. Really, nobody cares. Drunken Master 2 Fist of Legend Once Upon A Time In China series Fong Sai Yuk 1 & 2 Burning Paradise Blade of Fury Only the Strong The Quest Iron Monkey Bloodmoon Tai Chi Master Tai Chi 2 American Shaolin Wing Chun Hero Among Heroes The Scorpion King The Blade The Swordsman series King of Beggars Dragon The Bruce Lee Story 3 of these movies would make it onto my top 10 list...Drunken Master 2, Fist of Legend, & Iron Monkey...so I guess I shouldn't bother trying to compile a top 10. Know that I didn't pick films that I necessarily like or dislike. I just picked from the list of movies that have been mentioned so far and filled in a couple of more to make 20 like you asked. I also counted several movie series as "one" movie just to make the task "harder". Wow, you shouldn't have, thank you so much, I bow down before your amazing talent. I don't think what I was writing was difficult to understand and I certainly hope that's not what you were getting at when you wrote "pitiful". No, the "pitiful" part was refering to how many times you try to justify your opinion as being the gospel truth, even when several people have added their own just as relevant opinions as to what makes a martial arts film. It's time to let go, maybe you can start a new thread as to what makes a comedy movie were you can continue your discussion about if "Porky's" would still be funny if the comedy was taken out. I'm sure people care. Many times when someone says "martial arts movie" then they think "Asian" and what happens is that people just start naming movies "martial arts movies" just because there is an Asian who is fighting in it. However, there are movies that are very connected with some sort of component of "martial arts". Therefore I am saying that those movies there must earn the title of "martial arts movie" more than a movie whose only connection to martial arts is a bunch of Asians fighting. You must have repeated this point more than 100 times in this thread, I'm bored of reading it. Movies actually have to "earn" the title of being a martial arts movie now!? That's ludicrous. When asked to explain what martial arts is Bruce Lee said "martial arts includes all combatative arts...it's a form of combatative fighting"...so therefore, as with seemingly 99% of other people on the forum, in my opinion any film which predominantly features "combatative fighting" as part of the story, can be classed as a martial arts movie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member blue_skies Posted April 14, 2010 Author Member Share Posted April 14, 2010 Rm, I don't care who is performing the martial-arts sequences in a martial-arts film white, black, Asian or little green men from Mars. Let's be frank on a forum like this people aren't going to call a martial-arts film a martial-arts film just because it features an Asian actor/actress. Your point there is completely irrelevant. No one here is going to say JU ON The grudge is martial-arts because it features an Asian actors. Forgive my spelling. Quite a few of people of this forum found one of their favourite martial-arts films of 2000-10 starred a white American actor in the film Contour , eric jacobus (spelling)hmmmm To blow your point out of the water again regarding just because Jackie Chan stars it's a martial-arts movie. Nobody is mentioning "island of fire" or other Jackie Chan dramas. People are mentioning films where there are enough martial-arts sequences to justify the title of martial-arts film. I also believe martial-arts can feature many different types of movie martial-arts comedy, martial-arts action, martial-arts drama and no doubt feature other crossovers yet still be martial-arts . As for your list I just had a thought... If you're going to have films with stories based on martial-arts surely the martial-arts should be realistic, if those films we have included cannot be called martial-arts films because of a lack of martial-arts narrative. How do you include films with wire work that had nothing to do with martial-arts? by your own purity test surely three-quarters of your list at the very least has nothing to do with martial-arts because it's unnatural. Jet Li cannot perform those wild moves without wirework etc etc. If police story 3 was made in America (with or without Asian actors) it's certainly wouldn't have been one of my favourite films of the 90 s, or even one of my favourite Jackie Chan films of all time. it is what it is because it was made in Asia with Jackie Chan and his stunt team at the peak of their ascendancy. Made as a big-budget Hollywood movie they wouldn't dare risk their star players in such risky stunts, one of the main reason why we love Asian martial-arts movies is for the crazy action American movies can never do with their stars, even when one of your stars is Jackie Chan. I don't take your messages as discouraging just confusing. Whatever your opinion it's clearly not shared by the majority , of which, what most would consider hardcore martial-arts movie fans... Or even those less hardcore like myself. I can see your point but it's not like we are including, generally speaking, action films with very little martial-arts, not starring any martial-arts actors, not choreographed, and having more in common with a Western action film. And what you didn't understand from one of my previous posts is that when I said "all-encompassing label that includes not only Asian but all global forms" I meant all forms of martial-arts. Karate, kung-fu/ Wu Shu, Muay Thai, kick-boxing , Silat, Caporera(spelling) etc from all over the world . one of the things I like about the term martial-arts is that people won't call karate kung-fu or vice versa. I also like that martial-arts is not a strict definition of any form, by form I mean the various kinds of martial-arts for example a film doesn't have to feature only kung-fu but can mix Tai Quon do(spelling?) and anything else. I like how martial-arts film can be an ultra hardcore action film featuring awe inspiring, amazing moves ala Tony Jaa with immense brutality, or the grace , beauty and completely unachievable wirework scenes mixed with a love story like Bichunmoo, House of flying daggers or Hero. All these different types of martial-arts movies providing different aesthetics, different feels appropriate to different movies. All the different layers are martial-arts to me and whether you agree means nothing to me. You're entitled to your opinion and just because no one's proven you wrong in your opinion, doesn't mean you're right. Anyway... The reason why I posted this thread in the first place was to see other people's favourite martial-arts movies from the Nineties. I hoped to see my favourites on other people's favourites list. I hoped other people would include some other movies beyond their top 10, maybe some films that might be worth trying to find in the future. Maybe... It might have been more appropriate to start your own thread to start your own discussion rather than hijack this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member The Running Man Posted April 14, 2010 Member Share Posted April 14, 2010 You can take it as a punishment for completely derailing what should have been a really fun thread, out of the 56 posts on here....40 of them are in response to your endlessly repetative ramblings on what makes a martial arts films, or now, what makes a comedy film. Really, nobody cares. I don't get your tone at all. Just because you can't argue what I am saying doesn't make my post "rambling". Read Kung Fu Bob's post on this thread if you want to see "rambling". I also didn't derail any thread. The post was about martial arts movies and I saw movies on some people's list that aren't martial arts movies and I gave my reasons why. It seemed to be going fine until Kung Fu Bob had some sort of male version of a period and others decided to follow his example and turn sour after that. Wow, you shouldn't have, thank you so much, I bow down before your amazing talent. You're being an ass. You asked me to list 20 and I did more than that and I added that I named them just to name some of the genre not to put a "best of". That was to avoid the kind of comment you wrote anyway in response to my list which was, "3 of these movies would make it onto my top 10 list...Drunken Master 2, Fist of Legend, & Iron Monkey...so I guess I shouldn't bother trying to compile a top 10." No, the "pitiful" part was refering to how many times you try to justify your opinion as being the gospel truth, even when several people have added their own just as relevant opinions as to what makes a martial arts film. No, they weren't relevant. Someone else pointed out here as well that no one has been able to refute what I am saying. Being childish about this and telling me to "Let it go" isn't a good argument. You must have repeated this point more than 100 times in this thread, I'm bored of reading it. Movies actually have to "earn" the title of being a martial arts movie now!? That's ludicrous. What's "ludicrous" is calling a movie a "martial arts movie" just because an Asian is in it and he is in the middle of action. Sorry, "Police Story 3" isn't a martial arts movies. It isn't about martial arts at all. When asked to explain what martial arts is Bruce Lee said "martial arts includes all combatative arts...it's a form of combatative fighting"...so therefore, as with seemingly 99% of other people on the forum, in my opinion any film which predominantly features "combatative fighting" as part of the story, can be classed as a martial arts movie. You're doing exactly what blue skies erroneously did. Taking a Bruce Lee quote completely out of context. Bruce Lee wasn't talking about "martial arts movies" he was talking about martial arts in the real world. Another thing, telling me how many people on this thread agree with you is also a poor way to argue. Most people on these threads defend Dragon Dynasty and call their releases great. That doesn't mean they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member The Running Man Posted April 14, 2010 Member Share Posted April 14, 2010 Your point there is completely irrelevant. No one here is going to say JU ON The grudge is martial-arts because it features an Asian actors. Forgive my spelling. No one is going to call Ju On a "martial arts movie" because no one is fighting anyone in that movie. To blow your point out of the water again regarding just because Jackie Chan stars it's a martial-arts movie. Nobody is mentioning "island of fire" or other Jackie Chan dramas. People are mentioning films where there are enough martial-arts sequences to justify the title of martial-arts film. That didn't blow anything out of any water. People aren't mentioning "Island of Fire" because it seems those people didn't like it enough to mention it. As for your list I just had a thought... If you're going to have films with stories based on martial-arts surely the martial-arts should be realistic, if those films we have included cannot be called martial-arts films because of a lack of martial-arts narrative. How do you include films with wire work that had nothing to do with martial-arts? Research what "Wu Xia" is. Those are fantasy stories in settings about martial artists. They are martial art stories and the films that are "wu xia" are martial arts films. Your entire paragraph about Police Story 3 completely misses the mark on what I was talking about in reference of that movie by the way. And what you didn't understand from one of my previous posts is that when I said "all-encompassing label that includes not only Asian but all global forms" I meant all forms of martial-arts. Karate, kung-fu/ Wu Shu, Muay Thai, kick-boxing , Silat, Caporera(spelling) etc from all over the world. No blue skies. I understood you 100%. That is why my response was this, blue skies, you keep misinterpreting many things I write. I'm not talking about "forms". I already said this when you brought up that Bruce Lee thing that had nothing to do with what I am saying. All these different types of martial-arts movies providing different aesthetics, different feels appropriate to different movies. All the different layers are martial-arts to me and whether you agree means nothing to me. You're entitled to your opinion and just because no one's proven you wrong in your opinion, doesn't mean you're right. blue skies, if you want to discuss this right you need to be logical. I presented my stance on this. I understand it might not be how you are used to thinking about this subject but declaring what I am saying means "nothing" to you isn't discussing anything. You actually have misread time and time again what I wrote and have replied by going off on some other tangents. What forms you find beautiful and how much you like Tony Jaa has nothing to do with what I am talking about. I am talking about what is a "martial arts movie". Some of the movies mentioned so far are not martial arts movies and I have said why. You haven't replied directly to some of those reasons. Morgorth hasn't either. He asked about Bloodmoon and when I replied to that he ignored my reply totally and just went on writing me off. It might have been more appropriate to start your own thread to start your own discussion rather than hijack this thread? I didn't hijack any thread. People can continue to post what they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Morgoth Bauglir Posted April 14, 2010 Member Share Posted April 14, 2010 The reason I wrote you off is because you don’t see any middle ground on this. It’s either one way or the other, with you always having to be right. Just like you saying you didn’t hijack this thread, when it is clear that this has become your thread. You can’t even partially admit that. That’s why I didn’t respond to you. It’s pointless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member gorhama Posted April 14, 2010 Member Share Posted April 14, 2010 Yeah I walked away from this thread a while ago. It was a fun thread but then the fun vampire showed up and sucked all the fun out of it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member The Amazing Psycho Per Posted April 15, 2010 Member Share Posted April 15, 2010 The reason no one wants to argue with you Running Man is that there is no argument to be had. Nobody is wrong or right since it is purely a subjective matter. And yet you come in and give what your take on what makes a movie worthy of the Martial Arts movie tag, wich is fine. The problem is that it is what makes YOU consider it a MA movie and not an official classification out of the movie bible like you make it sound. See for me, a Martial Arts movie is when the main interest in watching the movie is to see the martial arts on display. It can be a MA comedy, a MA War film, etc... But it still a MA movie. Bourne movies: 5 minutes or so combined of badly filmed and edited martial arts: not watching it for the martial arts. Take the fights out and it's as entertaining, if you like it. Armour of god: Not a lot of fights, but take the final out and you've got a crappy movie. You go through that shit only to watch the fights, hence it is a martial arts movie. It's as simple as that for me. And it has nothing to do with racism towards asians, they just tend to do a lot more martial arts movies:eek:. Honestly, I really don't get why you take this subject so personally... Who gives a shit what you, I and the others thinks qualify as a Martial Arts movie? Unless you work for the movie classification police... If this is the case you could at least post your badge. After all your posts in this thread you never even posted your top movies of the nineties and you say you don't hijack the thread... By the way I don't give a fuck if the word Dramady is in the dictionnary, it still sounds stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member The Dragon Posted April 15, 2010 Member Share Posted April 15, 2010 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member sifu iron perm Posted April 16, 2010 Member Share Posted April 16, 2010 Fist of Legend mahjong dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member sifu iron perm Posted April 16, 2010 Member Share Posted April 16, 2010 btw..whats the best version (dvd) of Fist of Legend? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Member Iron_Leopard Posted May 1, 2021 Member Share Posted May 1, 2021 I came here to give my list but got distracted. This might be the most entertaining thread on this forum lol. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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