Best Martial Arts films of the Nineties

[wigsplitta]

Taking the names of some of the films here for example, Drive, Armour of God II, Who Am I, My Father Is a Hero and the Tiger Cage movies aren't martial arts films.

Hmmmmm...think someone should send all the film distributors etc a list of what are, and what aren't 'Martial Arts' movies!!! :-

[blue_skies]

gorhama, what are you talking about? Asking for a little common sense amazes you? I can call "Transformers" a "musical", "Slumdog Millionaire" a "Sword & Sandles" epic and "Requiem For A Dream" a "comedy" and say it's all my opinion under what you're suggesting.

If you want to debate it, then do it but trying to play two sides and call it equal is insulting because it isn't. Let's face it. Many movies are labeled "martial arts" simply because it's an Asian in the lead which is incredibly ignorant.

Why is "Who Am I" being referred to by some as a "martial arts movie" and not the Bourne films? Similar plots, similar situations with main characters that can fight along with villains that can fight as well. However, neither film has martial arts related to the stories in the movies. In fact, if one wanted to think like you then the Bourne films would win the label of "martial arts movie" before "Who Am I" because those films feature very specific martial arts styles in the fight scenes, like Jeet Keun Do. "Who Am I" is Jackie's style of choreography which means nothing specific whatsoever. Yet, the Bourne movies are not labeled "martial arts movies" but "Who Am I" is? Why? Simply because Jackie Chan stars in the movie which would've been like calling "Philadelphia" a comedy just because Tom Hanks was in it.

I'm sorry Running man but I also don't agree with you. I consider any film with a certain amount of martial-arts, also maybe a certain feel, to be a martial-arts film. Now you keep bringing up the Bourne films which feature few sporadic moments of martial-arts, but clearly the main thrust is a spy action thriller. I would not categorise the Matrix as a martial-arts movie but a sci-fi action film.

I feel perfectly comfortable labelling "Drive" as a martial-arts film even though it has sci-fi ideas in it. I think there's nothing wrong with labelling a film martial-arts, with a wide and varied cross-pollination of movie categories under one umbrella.

I also disagree with your thoughts on just because a certain Asian star appears in a film it becomes martial-arts automatically. I wouldn't really call Lethal weapon 4 a martial-arts movie even with one of the biggest on-screen martial-arts stars of the time.

Perhaps you're right in that what most of us consider to be martial-arts films should be called martial-arts action or something. But it's too late for that, the boat has sailed.

If I'm understanding your comment you're saying that because a film stays true to one particular style it should be called martial-arts more than a film with no style whatsoever but didn't Bruce Lee believe in the style with no style? Surely applying it to movies martial-arts films need not be purely about martial-arts or its philosophies?

[The Running Man]

Drunken Monk,

I can’t help but watch “Ong Bak” and believe it’s a martial arts movie…the same with many other films.

I haven't seen the movie in a bit, but Ong Bak 2 is definitely a martial arts movie.

But then it’s all open to interpretation. Some will say “Silence of the Lambs” is a thriller. Some will say it’s a suspense and others will say it’s a psychological drama. It’s all just opinion. Some will say “The Matrix” is an action and others will say it’s a sci fi. Some might even say it’s a martial arts film!

A movie can be more than one thing. That's why you have "sci-fi comedies", "action adventure", "dramadies", etc...

wigsplitta,

Hmmmmm...think someone should send all the film distributors etc a list of what are, and what aren't 'Martial Arts' movies!!! :-

Indeed.

blue skies,

Now you keep bringing up the Bourne films which feature few sporadic moments of martial-arts, but clearly the main thrust is a spy action thriller.

Ask yourself, why is that not a martial arts movie, but you cal Who Am I one? Both are movies with very similar plots and very similar situations with a big difference that Who Am I has comedic elements in it. Also unlike Who Am I, the Bourne films have specific styles of martial arts styles on display and yet it's still not a martial arts film. The reason is because the story has nothing to do with martial arts. Neither does Who Am I's.

Same with other movies like the Police Story films, Armour of God 1 & 2, and Project A 1 & 2. None of those films have story elements that have anything to do with martial arts.

However, Dragon Fist, Snake & Crane Art of Shaolin, Snake in the Eagle's Shadow, Drunken Master 1 & 2, and Fearless Hyena are all martial arts films. Martial arts plays a major role in those movies.

I also disagree with your thoughts on just because a certain Asian star appears in a film it becomes martial-arts automatically.

Read the comment again. I never said that. I said that's what many other people do and that's wrong.

If I'm understanding your comment you're saying that because a film stays true to one particular style it should be called martial-arts more than a film with no style whatsoever but didn't Bruce Lee believe in the style with no style? Surely applying it to movies martial-arts films need not be purely about martial-arts or its philosophies?

Nope. I didn't say any of that at all. What I'm saying is a "martial arts film" is a movie where "martial arts" plays a role in the story and plot of the movie. That's it. Has nothing to do with what style or how many styles.

[blue_skies]

RM, Just out of curiosity what do you call the movies we call martial-arts?

[blue_skies]

running man looks like someone took you serious as Merantau is being compared to Bourne!

[odioustrident]

Yeah I could, but going by what Running Man says, I think this one is pretty borderline. All that Bloodmoon really has is a guy fighting some other guys using martial arts. So if I go by that, then that doesn't make it a martial arts film. I consider it an MA movie because there's so many fights, but if I go by what Running Man says, I don't know.

Darren Shahlavi is challenging different fighters (who I think had different styles) in order to test their martial arts. That might qualify as an MA movie by Running Man's definition, but I'm not really sure. Either way, it is one of my favorite American movies in this whole scene, even though I still need to see Superfights, the No Retreat, No Surrender films, and probably a lot more.

Also, just for the record, I think Who Am I definitely distinguishes between different styles. The two villains in the finale are completely different. I think choreography in itself is a plot device; it can tell a story (or at least can express themes) as well as most dialogue.

[gorhama]

Also, just for the record, I think Who Am I definitely distinguishes between different styles. The two villains in the finale are completely different. I think choreography in itself is a plot device; it can tell a story (or at least can express themes) as well as most dialogue.

Excellent point as well.

[Bus]

like almost all the ones listed but i think we need to add the perfect weapon which needs a dvd release like yesterday!

[GazzO]

I've wanted to see Perfect Weapon for ages! Can't get it anywhere.

[The Running Man]

blue_skies,

RM, Just out of curiosity what do you call the movies we call martial-arts?

I'll use your list and only limit it to either "martial arts" or "action", meaning I won't note if it's also a comedy or whatever:

Fist of Legend - Martial Arts (Fok Yun Gap related)

The legend of Fong Sai Yuk 1 & 2 - Martial Arts (deals with Fong Sai Yuk)

Iron Monkey - Martial Arts (deals with Wong Fei Hung and Wong Kei Ying)

Police story 3: Super cop - Action (movie's story has nothing to do with "martial arts")

Who am I? - Action (movie's story has nothing to do with "martial arts")

Rumble In the Bronx - Action (although there are references to martial arts, they don't become part of the movie's story)

Drive - Action (movie's story has nothing to do with "martial arts")

Skinny Tiger and Fatty Dragon - Action (although Sammo does Bruce Lee impersonations throughout, it's played for laughs)

Once upon a time in China part 2 - Martial Arts (deals with Wong Fei Hung)

running man looks like someone took you serious as Merantau is being compared to Bourne!

Critics can be stupid. I remember there was a critic's blurb that called "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" the "Stars Wars of Kung Fu!" even though the movie was a Wu Xia film.

odioustrident,

Darren Shahlavi is challenging different fighters (who I think had different styles) in order to test their martial arts. That might qualify as an MA movie by Running Man's definition, but I'm not really sure.

I agree it's a martial arts film and I went into detail about this in my reply to Morgoth. Check it out.

Also, just for the record, I think Who Am I definitely distinguishes between different styles. The two villains in the finale are completely different. I think choreography in itself is a plot device; it can tell a story (or at least can express themes) as well as most dialogue.

I agree, but distinguishing styles in that fight scene is only related to that fight scene. How they fight has no impact on the story itself.

It's different than let's say the first Drunken Master's last fight. The whole movie was about Beggar So teaching Wong Fei Hung Drunken style but does not learn one of the Drunken forms because it's of a girl. That has impact on the story because at the end fight he is losing so to win he had to make up that style he didn't learn.

[odioustrident]

I agree, but distinguishing styles in that fight scene is only related to that fight scene. How they fight has no impact on the story itself.

It's different than let's say the first Drunken Master's last fight. The whole movie was about Beggar So teaching Wong Fei Hung Drunken style but does not learn one of the Drunken forms because it's of a girl. That has impact on the story because at the end fight he is losing so to win he had to make up that style he didn't learn.

I think your analysis gets to the true base of the genre and why many of us love it; I just haven't seen many martial arts scenes in which the character is completely separate from his style or movement. I think a fight on screen is, almost always, going to express something about the involved parties, and in turn express something about the plot (although not always directly like in Drunken Master). I personally think a martial arts film (at least these days), is anything with more than one MA scene with similar choreography. Those standards of physics and style create the setting of the film, without which a plot wouldn't exist. I also think a martial arts film should have a plot dealing directly with MA, but many wuxias and even some kung fu comedies don't have that.

I get your point that the plot of a film should deal directly with its genre, but there are so many movies you could not sell as, say, a drama because of the amount of action. Sure, its a "martial arts-drama" or whatever, but that delivers the MA goods for lots of people. At the end of the day, this is all just semantics, and in that sense I totally agree with you.

[KUNG FU BOB]

Just would like to take the oppertunity to discuss a mistake some make about "martial arts" movies. Sometimes, people talk about certain movies as martial arts movies that are actually not.

It's really lame how you frequently impose your OPINIONS as facts. What is your goal?

"Hey, someone's started a fun thread for people to share their opinions! Not if I can help it! These foolish mortals need to know the exacting parameters by which I have decreed such a thing may be done!" Then suddenly... Dunt da dah, dunt dunt dunt da... Running Man appears from nowhere with his "Super Dooper Fun-Depleting Sponge" to soak up every drop of fun the thread may have contained.

Why couldn't you just say "Well I think this constitutes a martial arts film..., but that's neither here nor there" (cause it isn't) and then list your movies? Why become the school master from Pink Floyd's THE WALL with your dictation and ranting on what should and shouldn't be?

The real reason "Drive" has been incorrectly labeled a "martial arts movie" is simply because of the "Asian-ness" of the production.

EEEEEEEINT! goes the buzzer. Once again- your OPINION. Not a fact. And an opinion I (and a million other fans) whole-heartedly disagree with. DRIVE IS a martial arts movie. Clearly. And I don't think that for the reasons you stated either. The "Asian-ness" of the production? How about the fact that it centers on a guy that uses amazing martial arts to survive throughout the story. That doesn't make it a martial arts film for you? Who cares? Actually, I would "care" about your opinion if you weren't so obnoxious and judgemental in the way you present them.

Drive could have been gunplay in the movie instead of hand to hand combat (which the script originally was) and it wouldn't really change the story.

But it wasn't. It would have been a "gunplay" movie then, instead of the martial arts film it turned out to be.

Take the martial arts component out of the "Drunken Master" films, the "Once Upon A Time In China" series, "Fearless" or "Ip Man" though, and you have no movie.

Yeah, yeah. I read that in Ric Meyers' book too. Very original argument.

That's how all genres are defined really.QUOTE]

Thank God you're here to define things. Can you define laid back, fun on a forum? I can. Here you go: any forum that isn't being haunted by your nonsense.

Instead of getting to hear my buddy's answer to the thread, I read him checking to see if it's going to be good with you!

Oh... YOU went further with something? What a huge surprise! Of course Gorhama couldn't possibly have gone as far as you... because he's not a boring, rambling pain in the ass!

RM, you go from very short spans of interesting comments and opinions, to long spans of your practically trollish, boring, whining nonsense, then back again. It's a pattern that's been repeating ever since I read your first comments on the forum. I'm so incredibly bored by you, and so is everyone I know. I normally just try to ignore your BS, but I felt like venting about it. Simply put, if you don't have anything nice to say, or an opinion that you can state as such (instead of as the Rules of the Known Universe), then I wish you'd just shut up. But I know you won't. Still, I'll say it again because I enjoy it. Running Man, SHUT UP!

Go ahead... write you increasingly yawn-inducing self explanatory reply to my post (shit... you've been writing it in your head already before you even got to my second sentence!). Make sure you tell me that I need to " chill out" or not take things so seriously (as is your method of responding to criticisms after you've taken things way too seriously). But I'll let you know right now- I don't care. I simply don't give a shit what you have to say anymore about anything. So to save us both time, my response to your response (which you haven't written yet) is "Blah blah blah... yawn. Whatever dude."

[TibetanWhiteCrane]

DAAAAAAAAMN, RM got schooled, something fierce! you're on fire today Bob!

I like this side of you

[blue_skies]

It's really lame how you frequently impose your OPINIONS as facts. What is your goal?

"Hey, someone's started a fun thread for people to share their opinions! Not if I can help it! These foolish mortals need to know the exacting parameters by which I have decreed such a thing may be done!" Then suddenly... Dunt da dah, dunt dunt dunt da... Running Man appears from nowhere with his "Super Dooper Fun-Depleting Sponge" to soak up every drop of fun the thread may have contained.

Why couldn't you just say "Well I think this constitutes a martial arts film..., but that's neither here nor there" (cause it isn't) and then list your movies? Why become the school master from Pink Floyd's THE WALL with your dictation and ranting on what should and shouldn't be?

EEEEEEEINT! goes the buzzer. Once again- your OPINION. Not a fact. And an opinion I (and a million other fans) whole-heartedly disagree with. DRIVE IS a martial arts movie. Clearly. And I don't think that for the reasons you stated either. The "Asian-ness" of the production? How about the fact that it centers on a guy that uses amazing martial arts to survive throughout the story. That doesn't make it a martial arts film for you? Who cares? Actually, I would "care" about your opinion if you weren't so obnoxious and judgemental in the way you present them.

But it wasn't. It would have been a "gunplay" movie then, instead of the martial arts film it turned out to be.

Yeah, yeah. I read that in Ric Meyers' book too. Very original argument.

thank you brother, by RM's standards martial art's movies are dead. I understand his purest ideas but beyond that this forum would be empty by those who love what "we"call MA films. Fist of fury is not a MA film cause it's really an action revenge film? what? cause by RM's logic you can hardly argue Bruce's film's are anytrhing but "action","revenge" etc

[The Amazing Psycho Per]

Kung Fu Bob you beat me to it...

It's not the first time he hijacks a thread about some opinion related subject on wich he considers holding the holly truth... Aside from in your head Running Man, where is the chart that stipulates what can and cannot be consider a martial arts film?

Dramadies... and it's the term Wire-Fu that's stupid...

As for the best of the nineties, I would have to say on top of my head and in no particular order:

Iron Monkey

Fist of Legend

Tai Chi master

Wing Chun

Tiger Cage 2

Burning Paradise

Drunken Master 2

OUATIC 1 and 2

and...

Drive:xd: just kidding... It's good, but not the cream of the crop. Definately the best American one for sure though...

Come thinking of it, the nineties pretty much belonged to Yuen Woo Ping IMO. There are other great flicks, but he was involved in most of the best of the best in the 4 or 5 years of good MA flicks during that decade.

[Guest Yi-Long]

I'm not gonna bother with a whole top 10, cause I doubt I can think of 10 MA movies from the 90's that I REALLY liked...

... but why the hell do people have Who Am I in there list? Or Armour of God 2: Operation Condor? Not to mention the absolutely HORRIBLE Dragon from Russia.

Who Am I has an entertaining final 25 minutes orso, but what has come before is just utter trash in every department.

Armour of God 2 I think I only must have seen the butchered western version, and I've given it a few chances, but it honestly doesn't have any interesting fights or stunts in it whatsoever. Ok, MAYBE the small fight in the hotelroom, if we're being generous.

Dragon from Russia I'm not even gonna waste my time explaining everything that was wrong with it. I'm still in therapy over the hour and a half I wasted on that.

My favourite martial arts movies from the 90's are Fist of Legend (extended version) and Drunken Master 2. Those are without a doubt at the very top.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

KF Bob that was some good stuff. Good to see you get fired up like that. Even when I get super annoying on threads, when it comes to the point that like 10 people disagree with me, and nobody agrees with me, I can usually finally see that maybe I’m only partly right, and not 100% right like I thought I was. Running Man I'm not saying you are totally wrong, but I think you are being way too picky with this.

I kind of agree with Yi Long, there’s not a ton of great MA movies from the 90’s. But I think you should dig deeper. Late 90’s it started to get realy bad, but early to mid 90’s there's still a lot of good ones. I don’t want to make a definitive list, because there’s so many I haven’t see. Here’s 10 of my favs. Not my absolute favs, but I didn’t see these listed and I think they need some recognition.

Kickboxer’s Tears

Sword Stained with Royal Blood

Love on Delivery

Angel Terminators

In the Line of Duty 5

Tai Chi 2

Operation Scorpio

Mahjong dragon

Legend of the Wolf

Full Impact- good martial arts movie to sit around with your friends and make fun of:tongue:

[Charuto]

What's wrong with running man's definition? There's nothing anybody has said that has been able to refute it.

"It's an opinion..." and "It feels like a martial arts film." aren't the best counterarguments.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

What’s wrong with it is that he states it as fact, and the way he goes about stating it. It’s not like this is the first, or second time he has done this. Running Man could just start a new thread on what his definition(s) are, but for some reason he likes to rile people up by injecting into someone elses thread what he considers to be fact. If I go by what his definition is, then there’s a lot of movies I can question if they are really martial arts movies, or if they are just movies where people fight a lot. Like Little Superman, Mahjong Dragon, Bruce Lee’s Big Boss, Tom Yum Goong, Lo Rei’s Super Ninja and Ninja USA. That list could go on and on. Stretching the mind and having a discussion about something like this is a good thing, but I don’t think taking over someone elses thread is the right way to go about it.

And there have been other counter arguments brought up, like a movie being driven by the fights, or a movie just having a lot of fight scenes, but you may not have seen them as this thread has gone way off course from what was originally intended by the thread starter.

[Guest Yi-Long]

Why is everyone upset by what Running Man considers a 'martial art' film or not!? Who fucking cares!?

HE doesn't think Drive is a 'martial arts' movie, and gives his personal legit reasons. I do think it's a martial arts movie. Big deal. Get over it. Move on.

[odioustrident]

What's wrong with running man's definition? There's nothing anybody has said that has been able to refute it.

"It's an opinion..." and "It feels like a martial arts film." aren't the best counterarguments.

Not to drag this out, but I basically said that most MA scenes give an expression of characters, themes, and settings; all those things are functions of a plot, but you can't have one without them being properly developed. In a lot of MA movies, plot plays second-fiddle to all the visuals. Who is to say those visuals don't develop a film to the same degree as plot? I actually get pretty embarrassed when some people on this forum start really emphasizing an MA film needing a "good plot." The plots have been rehashed since day one; they are a medium for the visuals, which are often the only things unique in each of these films. I'm generalizing on the last statement, but if we look at the whole genre in terms of numbers, this is correct. I still think a film needs a plot, but I wouldn't necessarily call that plot a good one.

Again, this is about what title you give a genre; its a personal choice that shouldn't matter to other people. It should run with what you find convenient.

Anyway, I'm so happy someone mentioned Burning Paradise on here. Great film that I feel like some of my friends could enjoy. I showed a friend Legend of the Wolf recently, somehow thinking it was more "Western," and he was having none of it. Just goes to show how films like LOTW and The Blade can be for people; they either love it or hate it.

I'm middle-of-the-road on that issue, sure lots of us are, but I think The Blade got good US distribution a few years back (someone must have liked them).

I think the Clarence Ford films like Gun n' Rose should be mentioned, since Dragon from Russia came up and his later films are just so unique visually. Sorry if someone has already.

[niro]

I for one grew up in the mid/late 90s and its predominately these films that got me interested in MA movies to begin with so I will always have a special fondness for those films, and thats probably why I can watch the western produced films like Rush Hour and Who Am I? over and over again without getting bored. Obviously these were ones that repeatedly appeared on TV.

When I got older I was able to watch movies from later 80s/early 90s and have to agree that these are a lot better quality in terms of martial arts than those of the late 90s.

[The Running Man]

Morgoth,

Running Man I'm not saying you are totally wrong, but I think you are being way too picky with this.

I'm not being picky, I'm being logical about this. So far, the only reason I have seen some of these movies being called "martial arts" movies is because the leads are Asian or the movies are Asian productions somehow and that is just wrong. I'm not saying that this is on purpose but some just haven't thought about this.

odioustrident,

Not to drag this out, but I basically said that most MA scenes give an expression of characters, themes, and settings; all those things are functions of a plot, but you can't have one without them being properly developed. In a lot of MA movies, plot plays second-fiddle to all the visuals. Who is to say those visuals don't develop a film to the same degree as plot?

What one's or my opinion is of a plot and story has nothing to do with what I am saying. What one's or my opinion is of an action sequence and how many of them are is not what I am talking about either. What I am saying is: Does the movie have anything to do with martial arts in its story?

I argued that your example of Who Am I doesn't make it a "martial arts movie" because that was only related to that specific scene. It had nothing to do with the main story of the movie at all unlike other movies where they do and my example was Drunken Master. That was to illustrate a difference between a "martial arts movie" and one that isn't and to further highlight that I purposely picked one that starred the same main actor.

Ong Bak 2 barely has a fully developed story and yet the reason it's a martial arts movie is because martial arts is key to that movie's story. Fearless is an all out epic film with a developed story, and IMO a great tale (the "director's cut" that is), which is also a martial arts movie because again "martial arts" is key to that movie. Fok Yun Gap was a martial artist and the whole movie hinges upon martial arts or "wu shu" in its case. The original 80s Karate Kid has fight scenes that hardly impress but guess what? It is a martial arts movie. The entire movie centers around the art of Karate.

[Morgoth Bauglir]

Morgoth,

I'm not being picky, I'm being logical about this. So far, the only reason I have seen some of these movies being called "martial arts" movies is because the leads are Asian or the movies are Asian productions somehow and that is just wrong. I'm not saying that this is on purpose but some just haven't thought about this.

I don't know what thread you've been reading lately Running Man. There have been other reasons listed. Lots of other reasons. I've thought a lot about this, but now you've confirmed that there is no reason for me to think about it anymore. Now I'll leave you to discuss that "only" reason you see:squigglemouth:

[The Running Man]

Well I am not sure what thread you are reading but I've responded to them and I haven't gotten any real replies back from them and in some cases people have misread me. That's also in reference of you. You asked about "Bloodmoon" and I responded to that and did so in a respectable fashion but since then you haven't even acknowledged it. In fact, you have flat out ignored what I wrote and now are just writing me off.

Oh, and to answer one little comment that The Amazing Psycho Per had for me:

Dramadies... and it's the term Wire-Fu that's stupid...

Check this link out....

Which is from the English dictionary: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dramedy

And yes, "wire fu" is a very stupid term. It's a stupid term created by non-Asians who don't take Asian cinema seriously so they add "fu" to whatever Asian. Same as "gun fu". There is no martial arts in John Woo's triad and action films like "A Better Tomorrow", "The Killer", "Once A Thief", "Bullet in the Head" but it's called "gun fu" simply because the man is Asian. That's stupid and racist.

This is the same kind of ignorance that results in seeing a movie like Derek Yee's "Protegé" or the Korean film "Friend" in the martial arts section at a video store even though they have no business being there.